Christian Students win legal challenge against the university of Iowa

[hadit]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

It is if they belong to the university , university rules trump group rules.

Evidently the courts don't agree

That doesn't make them right.

Legally speaking, it does. You may object on your personal moral grounds, but they are legal.

 

[pknopp]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

 

[Penelope]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

It is if they belong to the university , university rules trump group rules.

If the university is connected to the government the Constitution trumps university rules, and the Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of assembly. It therefore cannot prevent exclusive groups.

They get federal funding.

Anyone that practices sin can not be forgiven until they stop, but that is none of the churches business, any gay is free to attend any church they want unless they CHOOSE to put their sin in the faces of the congregation. any gay that simply does not talk about their life style to the rest of the congregation won't be preached to because no one will know.

I

Anyone that practices sin can not be forgiven until they stop, but that is none of the churches business, any gay is free to attend any church they want unless they CHOOSE to put their sin in the faces of the congregation. any gay that simply does not talk about their life style to the rest of the congregation won't be preached to because no one will know.

Every single person there that has remarried is doing the same thing.

again so what?

You have been answered.

you got no point. you keep making a claim you can not prove.

The divorce rate and remarried are members of your church.

none of my business.

Just gays are, I see.

I don't ask anyone their sexual preference or their married status it isn't my business.

But you know if they are gay or not? or trans or not. Your right, its none of your business and it isn't the Christian group business as well.

be specific and link to where the group even asks that, all I saw was that any member had to affirm the Christian faith.

They did, go back and look at my replies.

 

[hadit]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

 

[pknopp]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

 

[hadit]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

It is if they belong to the university , university rules trump group rules.

If the university is connected to the government the Constitution trumps university rules, and the Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of assembly. It therefore cannot prevent exclusive groups.

They get federal funding.

Then they are bound by the Constitution and cannot prevent Christian groups from excluding non-Christians based on freedom of assembly. Sounds like the case is closed.

 

[hadit]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

 

[Penelope]

Article II - Membership
a) Required UI Human Rights Clause must be included in all registered student organization constitutions (within exception of social fraternities and sororities at the University of Iowa) and must be written EXACTLY as follows (10/15/14):

In no aspect of its programs shall there be any difference in the treatment of persons on the basis of race, creed, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, pregnancy, disability, genetic information, status as a U.S. veteran, service in the U.S. military, sexual orientation, gender identity, associational preferences, or any other classification which would deprive the person of consideration as an individual. The organization will guarantee that equal opportunity and equal access to membership, programming, facilities, and benefits shall be open to all persons. Eighty percent (80%) of this organization’s membership must be composed of UI students.
Constitutional Standards and Guidelines - Leadership, Service, and Civic Engagement | The University of Iowa (uiowa.edu)

The Supreme Court makes special accommodations for Christian groups.

 

[Penelope]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

They are not abiding to the laws of the University. they are religious bigots.

 

[Penelope]

The organization will guarantee that equal opportunity and equal access to membership, programming, facilities, and benefits shall be open to all persons. Eighty percent (80%) of this organization’s membership must be composed of UI students.
Constitutional Standards and Guidelines - Leadership, Service, and Civic Engagement | The University of Iowa (uiowa.edu)
----------------------
apparently Christian business owners can't read english.

 

[hadit]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

They are not abiding to the laws of the University. they are religious bigots.

The rules of the university are not Constitutional. It's totally irrelevant what you think they are.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

They are not abiding to the laws of the University. they are religious bigots.

The Constitution trumps university rules

 

[pknopp]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

Keep on spinning what I say all you want. I said I supported the decision. That doesn't seem to be good enough for you.

Whatever.

 

[Concerned American]

129. It includes a paragraph entitled “Doctrine of Personal Integrity,” which states: All Christians are under obligation to seek to follow the example of Christ in their own lives and in human society. In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including pornography. We believe God’s intention for a sexual relationship is to be between a husband and wife in the lifelong covenant of marriage. Every other sexual relationship beyond this is outside of God’s design and is not in keeping with God’s original plan for humanity. We believe every person should embrace, not reject, their God-given sex. We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick. We should speak on behalf of the unborn and contend for the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death.
------------------------------
unbelievable.

Your problem is obvious.

 

[Penelope]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

They are not abiding to the laws of the University. they are religious bigots.

The rules of the university are not Constitutional. It's totally irrelevant what you think they are.

Do you attend class without pants on, rules are rules but the SC doesn't think so. What good enough for groups should be good enough for Christians, they they get special treatment by the SC.

 

[Penelope]

129. It includes a paragraph entitled “Doctrine of Personal Integrity,” which states: All Christians are under obligation to seek to follow the example of Christ in their own lives and in human society. In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including pornography. We believe God’s intention for a sexual relationship is to be between a husband and wife in the lifelong covenant of marriage. Every other sexual relationship beyond this is outside of God’s design and is not in keeping with God’s original plan for humanity. We believe every person should embrace, not reject, their God-given sex. We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick. We should speak on behalf of the unborn and contend for the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death.
------------------------------
unbelievable.

Your problem is obvious.

I have a issue with Christian groups that think they are above everyone else.

 

[Concerned American]

129. It includes a paragraph entitled “Doctrine of Personal Integrity,” which states: All Christians are under obligation to seek to follow the example of Christ in their own lives and in human society. In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including pornography. We believe God’s intention for a sexual relationship is to be between a husband and wife in the lifelong covenant of marriage. Every other sexual relationship beyond this is outside of God’s design and is not in keeping with God’s original plan for humanity. We believe every person should embrace, not reject, their God-given sex. We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick. We should speak on behalf of the unborn and contend for the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death.
------------------------------
unbelievable.

Your problem is obvious.

I have a issue with Christian groups that think they are above everyone else.

I didn't see anything in your post that even hinted at superiority. They just stated their morals and beliefs. Why do you believe they are not entitled to their beliefs? If you don't believe, that is fine. You don't seem to have a problem trying to force people to believe that gender science does not exist.

 

[hadit]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

I will never go to an business who advertise as a Christian business.

Me. as well. There are so many bizarre things coming out of people who claim that this is Christianity that this faith is so confusing as to be unrecognizable. I am asking myself what it means to believe in Jesus anymore. A famous Christian author once told me to not quit, to wade through the 2,000 years of bullshit and find what the truth is, but I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth, in view of the Catholic boys who run that faith, and the graham and jeffress types, all of whom seek to destroy any legacy that Jesus left.

Go by what Jesus said.

I do. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Too much has been tacked onto Christianity that shouldn't be there. It really should be a very simple faith.

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8;7

That was not the old law.

I know. He had the power to forgive, and that's what He came to do. Note that forgiving her didn't make what she (why wasn't the man she was caught with also there?) did acceptable, because He told her to "Go, and sin no more". IOW, adultery was still wrong in God's eyes.

But yet we don't exclude adulterer's like we do those who are gay.

The principle still holds though, a group can include or exclude whomever they wish under the right of free assembly. Would we require a Muslim group to accept pig farmers, even if they accepted adulterers? IOW, it's not up to people outside the group to dictate how the group operates.

I agree they can. I just don't support it.

Why then do I only see angst about Christian groups existing to only serve Christians? Every group that forms is exclusionary, so why does the heat always seem to focus on Christians? Where are the protests against, say, Muslim groups? Homosexual groups? Would the university require a group formed to provide gay students support and friendship to allow members of this Christian group to join, and if they did, would you support the university in doing so?

I am a Christian so I hold them to a higher standard.

That really doesn't address the question but it sounds like you would approve of the Christian group being forced to allow non-Christians to join but would not approve of a gay student group being forced to allow members of this group to join them.

I've been very clear on my position. I dont support forcing anyone, I just don't support those being exclusionary.

Christians are people too, and deserve to have their own groups just like everyone else. I support them having a student group that is for Christians only.

It only makes sense to allow groups to be exclusionary. Think of it this way, why would an non-Christian even WANT to join a Christian group? There is one major reason I can think of why he/she would do that, and that is to wreak havoc within the group. IOW, they shouldn't be forced to let the enemy join the group. We wouldn't demand that a group of and for black students be forced to allow KKK sympathizers to join, or a Jewish group to allow neo-Nazis to join, so why would we force a Christian group to allow those who wish to destroy the group to join them? Christians deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Allowing it and supporting it are two different things. You can use extreme examples but that's really not what is in question here.

Actually, it is. Freedom of assembly doesn't have a degree, as in "It's okay for you guys to exclude but not for these guys". If it did, it wouldn't be a freedom, it would be the government picking and choosing who can do it and who cannot.

They are not abiding to the laws of the University. they are religious bigots.

The rules of the university are not Constitutional. It's totally irrelevant what you think they are.

Do you attend class without pants on, rules are rules but the SC doesn't think so. What good enough for groups should be good enough for Christians, they they get special treatment by the SC.

The Constitution does not specify that you have the right to be undressed in public, therefore there is no conflict if the university has a dress code. The Constitution does, however, specify that we have freedom of assembly, which means that the government can't deny us the freedom to associate with whomever we want or force us to associate with those we don't want.

Christian groups do not deserve special negative treatment either. If a Muslim student group can exclude Jews and a Hindu group exclude Muslims, a Christian group can exclude non-Christians. The principle at play here is freedom of assembly. Does a public university have the authority to dictate who can and cannot join various groups? Obviously the courts say no, so therefore your complaint is null and void.

 

[Lysistrata]

It is very simple, yet very profound. Jesus didn't have to say much about homosexuality because He was an observant Jew who obeyed the Law and God's opinion about homosexuality was made clear in the Law.

,
According to the OT, the Creator had opinions on a whole lot of subjects. You are cherry-picking unless you observe the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish lifestyle.

You people are sooooo righteous in your own heads. Homosexuality really didn't get any more lines than any other issue, sexual or other, in the OT, which was written thousands of years ago before there was a better understanding of same-sex orientation. You don't get to judge anyway. Judgment is clearly stated to be the prerogative of the Creator.

This whole anti-LGBT thing is a product of male sexual insecurity, not anything that derives from the teachings of Jesus, who emphasized that the Creator loved all people and how people should treat others. You are just abusing faith in him for your own nefarious ends.

I notice that you have no problem being very judgmental yourself when trying to accuse me of being judgmental. Homosexuality is but one of the issues on which humans flout God's opinion to their own detriment, and there is a vast separation between loving and accepting someone who is attracted to their own gender and celebrating their lifestyle.

You are being judgmental. Nobody is asking anyone to "celebrate" any sort of lifestyle. I bet that you don't hide your heterosexual lifestyle. You are still trying to hide behind what you refer to as "God's opinion" to justify your obvious insecurities.

BTW: As I've said many times before, people who refer to themselves and their beliefs as "Christian" need to identify their denomination, sect, church, whatever. These beliefs are not universally held.

Identifying one's denomination puts the definition of one's faith in someone else's hands. IOW, if I say I'm Roman Catholic, you immediately go online to find whatever you can find objectionable about Roman Catholicism to accuse me of. Same if I say I'm Southern Baptist or Methodist or Presbyterian. I do not name a denomination so I am free to state what I believe, and force you to deal with that instead of a straw man you put up. So if you want to discuss what I believe you have to ask me.

Funny that you accuse me of being insecure, yet I do not hold a parade so I can figuratively rub everyone's face (including children, BTW) in my sexuality and demand that they celebrate my lifestyle, nor do I seek out vendors who object to my lifestyle with the sole purpose of forcing them to either celebrate my lifestyle or face trouble.

Being turned off and disgusted by something =/= being insecure in one's self.

So why are you being judgmental again?

There is no "straw man" involved and I don't understand your reference to children. Who is rubbing anyone's face in anything? Holding a parade is not the only way to "celebrate" one's lifestyle; in fact no one is ever required to attend any parade. There are weddings, wedding announcements published in newspapers, couples walking around hand=in-hand, PDAs, pictures on one's desk at work, talking about one's partner to others. Having a business license, running the business, and performing services as advertised do not involve "celebrating" anything. Would a female baker be excused without any penalty for refusing to bake a wedding cake for a heterosexual southern baptist male, when they are known for their misogyny and subjugation of women? I don't think so. Either you serve the public or you don't.

Don't bring your prejudices to work.

Please note that nothing in my comment involves a business that simply doesn't stock a certain product.

Society has to observe public-accommodations laws to avoid absolute chaos that would affect the entire stream of commerce. Remember that there are so many "beliefs" held in our nation that they are impossible to count and no belief is entitled to deference over another, and no belief supersedes the rights of others who are outside of the community that holds a certain belief.

What you are trying to do is pass the burden of your particular belief on others rather than shouldering it yourself. Every believer in anything has to carry his/her burden. If you are open for business, the door is open. If you want or need to close up, just lock up and put the closed sign on the door.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

I don't trust anyone who just says "Christian." Name denomination or sect, please. The Christian faith is now all split off, making naming the denomination extremely important. Were these students Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Dutch Reformed? What? There are morons who say that "Christians" are being "persecuted," but each Christian faith is different, so be specific as to which Christians you are talking about.

It was a nondenominational Christian organization. Meaning that ANY Christian could join.