Christian Cabinet Minister gunned down in Pakistan

[Ropey]

If you look at the above points, you can see how extremists work. No freedom, no equal rights, no democracy, no religious freedom, no press freedom!

More than ever Pakistan is currently going into the hands of extremists. The only way this can be prevented is that our Pakistani moderate brothers have to step up in curbing this extremism. They should not give-in to these extremists and have to protect their rights.

I have to disagree with this quote, Pakistan already IS in the hands of the extremists.

But not out there. They are behind the scenes. Busily working behind the scenes, but not yet out in front.

That way they can continue to kill their opposition. Moderates do not do that. They are the ones with the placards in front of the US embassy in Islamibad. The terrorists are the ones killing the moderates.

How can that be stopped? I agree with you HG.

 

[High_Gravity]

If you look at the above points, you can see how extremists work. No freedom, no equal rights, no democracy, no religious freedom, no press freedom!

More than ever Pakistan is currently going into the hands of extremists. The only way this can be prevented is that our Pakistani moderate brothers have to step up in curbing this extremism. They should not give-in to these extremists and have to protect their rights.

I have to disagree with this quote, Pakistan already IS in the hands of the extremists.

But not out there. They are behind the scenes. Busily working behind the scenes, but not yet out in front.

That way they can continue to kill their opposition. Moderates do not do that. They are the ones with the placards in front of the US embassy in Islamibad. The terrorists are the ones killing the moderates.

How can that be stopped? I agree with you HG.

The extremists have all the cards in Pakistan, they have the muscle, they call the shots and anytime someones tries to change anything in Pakistan, they are murdered. The moderates are trying to change things in Pakistan on paper but it means nothing when the people are not interested and do not want to confront extremism. The people in Libya were fed up with Ghadaffi and are taking charge of their ownd destiny, the Pakistanis have to do the same against the Taliban over there but they won't.

 

[Ropey]

Not with the weapons against them in Pakistan. ISI will just truck in the Taliban. They know this.

 

[High_Gravity]

Not with the weapons against them in Pakistan. ISI will just truck in the Taliban. They know this.

Yeah just like how Ghaddai is bring in Africans to murder the Libyans, the problem is alot of Pakistanis agree with Islamic law and are ok with it, after all Pakistan was founded as a Muslim country from India.

 

[ogibillm]

some of you see this as a move towards extremism...

i'll point out that the law has been on the books for 40 years and the minister was killed for speaking out against it.

speaking out. that seems like a move away from extremism.

you can't suppress people and ideas with violence forever.

 

[Ropey]

some of you see this as a move towards extremism...

i'll point out that the law has been on the books for 40 years and the minister was killed for speaking out against it.

speaking out. that seems like a move away from extremism.

you can't suppress people and ideas with violence forever.

I agree with eternal suppression not being on the books.

But the time for moderation in Pakistan is not now it would seem, and the moderate ones speaking out are dying off with targeted killings in the ~300 a year. (in Karachi alone)

When the moderates are not dying I will feel more hope.

 

[Jos]

Davis Arrest Throws US Undercover Campaign in Pakistan into Disarray

As I reported earlier, both Pakistani and Indian news organizations are claiming, based upon intelligence sources, that Davis was involved in not just intelligence work, but in orchestrating terrorist activity by both the Pakistani Taliban and the terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which has been linked to both the assassination of Benezir Bhutto and the capture and beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. Multiple calls to members of both groups were found by police on some of the cell phones found on Davis and in his car when he was arrested in Lahore.

It is unclear how far the blow-up in Pakistan over the exposure of America’s role in stirring up unrest in that country will go. Clearly, the ISI and the Pakistani military have long had their own complicated relationship with the Pakistani Taliban, and much of the current anger in both the ISI and the military has to do with the US being found to be working behind their backs, including in its contact with those groups.

But things have been complicated too by mounting public outrage over Davis’s brazen slaughter of the two Pakistanis, who reportedly were tailing him because of concerns about the nature of his activities, and who reportedly were both shot in the back. This public outrage has been further stoked by both a subsequent suicide by the 18-year-old bride of one of the victims, and by the death of an innocent bystander mowed down by a second vehicle carrying several more US contractors which sped to Davis in response to his call for assistance following the shooting. That vehicle, after running down the bystander, raced to sanctuary at the US Consulate. The men in the car, never identified by the consulate, were spirited out of the country by the US so they could avoid arrest.

(Pause here, dear reader, for a moment and just reflect on what the US public reaction would be if a Pakistani intelligence "contractor" working out of a Pakistani consulate in, say, Los Angeles, killed two young motorcyclists, and a car full of other Pakistani contractors, racing to his aid, drove the wrong way down a crowded street, ran over and killed an innocent bystander, raced back onto consulate grounds, and then the men in that vehicle, sought by police, were spirited out of the country by Pakistani officials. Hold that thought.)

Davis Arrest Throws US Undercover Campaign in Pakistan into Disarray | This Can't Be Happening

 

[High_Gravity]

Davis Arrest Throws US Undercover Campaign in Pakistan into Disarray

As I reported earlier, both Pakistani and Indian news organizations are claiming, based upon intelligence sources, that Davis was involved in not just intelligence work, but in orchestrating terrorist activity by both the Pakistani Taliban and the terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which has been linked to both the assassination of Benezir Bhutto and the capture and beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. Multiple calls to members of both groups were found by police on some of the cell phones found on Davis and in his car when he was arrested in Lahore.

It is unclear how far the blow-up in Pakistan over the exposure of America’s role in stirring up unrest in that country will go. Clearly, the ISI and the Pakistani military have long had their own complicated relationship with the Pakistani Taliban, and much of the current anger in both the ISI and the military has to do with the US being found to be working behind their backs, including in its contact with those groups.

But things have been complicated too by mounting public outrage over Davis’s brazen slaughter of the two Pakistanis, who reportedly were tailing him because of concerns about the nature of his activities, and who reportedly were both shot in the back. This public outrage has been further stoked by both a subsequent suicide by the 18-year-old bride of one of the victims, and by the death of an innocent bystander mowed down by a second vehicle carrying several more US contractors which sped to Davis in response to his call for assistance following the shooting. That vehicle, after running down the bystander, raced to sanctuary at the US Consulate. The men in the car, never identified by the consulate, were spirited out of the country by the US so they could avoid arrest.

(Pause here, dear reader, for a moment and just reflect on what the US public reaction would be if a Pakistani intelligence "contractor" working out of a Pakistani consulate in, say, Los Angeles, killed two young motorcyclists, and a car full of other Pakistani contractors, racing to his aid, drove the wrong way down a crowded street, ran over and killed an innocent bystander, raced back onto consulate grounds, and then the men in that vehicle, sought by police, were spirited out of the country by Pakistani officials. Hold that thought.)

Davis Arrest Throws US Undercover Campaign in Pakistan into Disarray | This Can't Be Happening

Thats all propoganda and bullshit, this is nothing but a modern day witch hunt because this man was American. If he was Taliban and killed the 2 Pakistanis, nobody would have done anything.

 

[Ropey]

[If he was Taliban and killed the 2 Pakistanis, nobody would have done anything.

 

[High_Gravity]

[If he was Taliban and killed the 2 Pakistanis, nobody would have done anything.

I laugh whenever people try to say it was suspcious the American had a Beretta, when in Pakistan everyone and their dog carries automatic weapons. I would be more suspicious if he wasn't carrying to be honest. Pakistan should just change their name to Talibanistan and be done with it.

 

[ogibillm]

Thats all propoganda and bullshit, this is nothing but a modern day witch hunt because this man was American. If he was Taliban and killed the 2 Pakistanis, nobody would have done anything.

well it certainly wouldn't have foreign relations implications were he Taliban.

but he isn't. he's an American presumably working for United States.

and it isn't a witch hunt if he did it. then it's just law enforcement doing its job.

 

[High_Gravity]

Thats all propoganda and bullshit, this is nothing but a modern day witch hunt because this man was American. If he was Taliban and killed the 2 Pakistanis, nobody would have done anything.

well it certainly wouldn't have foreign relations implications were he Taliban.

but he isn't. he's an American presumably working for United States.

and it isn't a witch hunt if he did it. then it's just law enforcement doing its job.

Law enforcement doing their job? fuckin bullshit, how about they do their job and arrest the Taliban and Al Qaeda that walk around Pakistan killing people whenever they feel like it, what a ******* joke. This is nothing but a modern day witch hunt for an American, you and I both know whats going on here, stop with the piss weak excuses because no one is buying them.

 

[Kalam]

You assign blame where you think blame is due. There is a difference. You don't accept minimization as a legitimate critique?

Not as you've attempted to use it, no.

Yes, the words are physical. The book is physical. That's how you play with words though kalam.

How is that playing with words? If we understand what 'physical existence' denotes, is it not clear that a book I hold I can hold in my hand fits the definition? I don't understand this claim of yours at all.

There are 57 Muslim countries where one can see the physical acts of Islam. There are 22 border wars worldwide with the common factor being Islam vs...

Jihad is incumbent upon any Muslim whose religious freedoms are abused by those who rule over him and upon any Muslim whose country is attacked by kuffar. I suspect that any conflict in your list which is of a religious character meets one of these two criteria.

You say that the philosophical Islam that you hold to is different from all those other ones.

All of which other ones? I'm a Muslim of the ahl as-Sunnah who typically observes the jurisprudence of the Hanafi school. That description can be applied to tens of millions of people around the world who represent varying levels of observance, sincerity, and understanding.

Philosophical Islam when the acts on the ground show what is happening in the physically existent extremist Islam.

Do you have a method of quantifying the prevalence of "extremism" or are your views based on your general impressions?

That's my view. You have yours. As I said in the PM. We are pretty much diametrically opposed in almost all our views with regards to Islamic interpretations.

Notwithstanding my lack of a formal religious education, whose views of "Islamic interpretations" are more likely to be grounded in familiarity with the subject matter? I'm a layman and the limits of my knowledge are apparent, but I've learned enough to know that certain things can't be ascribed to the religion itself regardless of its followers' sins.

 

[Kalam]

When asked (madrasa students) about list the priorities for Pakistan,

1. 99.2 per cent of madrasa students answered yes to conquering Kashmir
2. 97.7 per cent implementation of Sharia law
3. 96.1 per cent developing nuclear weapons should continue
4. 87.7 per cent strengthening the army

All of these things are commendable.

5. Over 73 percent of madrasa students opposed equal rights for women
6. 81.6 per cent opposed equal rights for Ahmedis
7. 71.7 per cent were against Christians and Hindus.

Meanings?

8. Nearly half said Democracy was not a priority,

Does every state have to organize itself politically in a manner consistent with Western ideals?

9. More than 76 per cent were against freedoms for the electronic media.

Also unclear.

 

[Kalam]

Not with the weapons against them in Pakistan. ISI will just truck in the Taliban. They know this.

Yeah just like how Ghaddai is bring in Africans to murder the Libyans, the problem is alot of Pakistanis agree with Islamic law and are ok with it, after all Pakistan was founded as a Muslim country from India.

The partitioning was actually opposed by many of the 'ulema from Dar ul 'Uloom Deoband.

 

[GHook93]

It just seems Pakistan has fallen into a terrorist state that no body is safe here.

May GOD bless his soul, amen ..

Godspeed my friend, I pray there are more like you in Pakistan and around the Muslim world! Your a good man.

 

[Ropey]

Not with the weapons against them in Pakistan. ISI will just truck in the Taliban. They know this.

Yeah just like how Ghaddai is bring in Africans to murder the Libyans, the problem is alot of Pakistanis agree with Islamic law and are ok with it, after all Pakistan was founded as a Muslim country from India.

The partitioning was actually opposed by many of the 'ulema from Dar ul 'Uloom Deoband.

Some Nazi's were against the final solution.

Does it change the acts on the ground?

You do nothing but attempt to divert.

 

[Kalam]

Some Nazi's were against the final solution.

Reductio ad Hitlerum. We both know that comparing the Deobandi to Nazis is silly and dishonest.

Does it change the acts on the ground?

Are they the extent of your interests?

You do nothing but attempt to divert.

You claim not to hate me, but I'm apparently an arrogant and dishonest practitioner of a backward religion whose posts involve nothing but diversion, obfuscation, minimization, etc. etc. etc. You feel the need to tell me this at every turn, even in the middle of unrelated discussions with other posters. I don't mind if you hate me but I'd rather you admit that you do if this is the case.

 

[Ropey]

I don't hate you. I quite dislike the interpretations of Islam and I fear the extensions of Militant Islam towards the West and Israel.

I see you applying softness to the acts of Muslims when posted on this forum. I see you divert posts on the subject with out of context questions about how others would feel about the events if those events were applied to yet other events, etc.

Then we're off on those other events.

I think your belief is backwards and in need of reformist interpretations. You do not. We are diametrically opposed in this.

I do not think Islam is inherently evil. I have told you that many times. I do think that the interpretations have been taken to evil propositions.

I'll point this kind of thing out when I see it and it's all over the world. What I won't do is argue semantics and scriptural positions.

Shahbaz Bhatti (a Christian Moderate) is dead.

​

I do not accept sentimentality disclaimers. Reasons notwithstanding.

 

[idb]

It just seems Pakistan has fallen into a terrorist state that no body is safe here.

May GOD bless his soul, amen ..

I feel sorry for the law abiding honest Pakistanis that have to live with scum like the Taliban running Pakistan.

It's not a simple thing. Moderates are moderate and fall to extremism due to fear. I see little to no chance in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

We know what the Madrassas are teaching and we are allowing it to occur due to fear.


Madrassas in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"No one thought to ask about what would happen next...nearly an entire generation came of age in a peculiar all-male world where the only concern was the Koran, sharia law and the glorification of jihad" ”

—Dina Temple-Raston

So, the extremists get stronger. Political correctness has stopped reality from setting in until the next attack on Western Philosophical soil.

All talbanism which is happening in Pakistan is because of Qutubi ideology .Jamaat Islami played the main role promoting terrorism and hatred .The Madaris started 50 years ago was not intend to get the power in the country ,Deoband Ulema like Ashraf Ali Thanwi ,Shabir Ahmed Usmani ,Qasim Nanatwi or Mufi Muhammad Shafi had different concepts then Todays deobandis like Taliban ,And this is because of the Jamaat Islami ideology which was injected in Deoband Madaris during Afghan war .Now Deobani Madaris and Jamaat islami has become one ideology ,Thats why Munwer hasan says “Ham aur Taliban aik hi hain ”
Shamir Ahmed Usmani worked with Qaid-e-azam ,Muti-e-Azam pakistan never asked Khilafat aur aur Mulla government in Pakistan .
Jamaat Islami members is very few in numbers but they have managed to inject their virus in all Pakistani nation .

I have a magazine called “terjuman-ul-Quran ” from Jamat Islami and I find ninety percent topics are hatred and on “amrika “.

Jihadi public schools? ? by Ali K Chishti*|*Let Us Build Pakistan

It's not as though moderates are not telling us. It is that the leadership is not listening and relating it and the media is unwilling to touch such a thing.

Which leadership are you referring to Ropey?