Cash for clunkers

[Cold Fusion38]

Hey Navy I am new here can you explain what the power ranking and icons on the top left of your post is all about?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

They really should let the "clunkers" be reused. Heck they could take those "clunkers" and convert them to LNG or plug in electric.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

This program is the SAME THING THEY DID TO THE MORTGAGE INDUSTRY... they subsidized mortgages, making them cheaper and easier to get...

What did that do? it shoved up the price of the underlying product; REAL ESTATE.

This will do one thing... drive up the price of USED CARS... as it reduces the number of available used cars.

Now who buys used cars?

That's right... this program is going to make it harder for that single Mom with bad credit to run out and grab herself a reliable used car, which is priced within her means...

And who do ya suppose we're going to need to FIX THAT PROBLEM? Why, just like always, we'll need those WHO CAUSED THE PROBLEM TO FIX IT.

ROFL...

Leftists...

If not for that last part, that's a good angle. But it's not "leftists" and by using that term you show that you are being partisan still. The rest though, is one side effect those supporting this stupidity have not considered.

Puhlease Kitty...

The Hussein Regime is the most Radically left Administration since WILSON; eclipsing FDR's comrade fest. And this Keynsian trainwreck will produce the same 'unintended Consequences' that ALL Socialist policy produces... it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME... as it MUST HAPPEN...

That those implementing aren't children, thus they've been around long enough to HAVE WITNESSED IT, MANY TIMES... it's pretty hard to lend much credence to the notion that 'they haven't considered it...'

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.

The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.

What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.

But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.

All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.

Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.

Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.

Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009


I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.

I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.

It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...

trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.

I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?

Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...

Care

Hmm... WOW! So we own a siginificant percentage of Toyote, Nissan and Hyundai? That's news... when did THAT happen?

But setting that aside, lets just assume for the sake of argument that 'we own 70% of the auto industry'...

Now, we loan ourselves money to go buy the products, that we loaned ourselves, to buy the companies which we loaned money to, so they could produce those products... how's that helping us, exactly?

Now Care will be unable to explain how our subsidizing the purchasing of new cars, which must drive up the the cost of used cars; which we did buy taking out loans to buy the products, which we took out loans to but the companies that produced them, helps us...

All she knows is that 'it sounds good, so it must BE GOOD...'

 

[editec]

Cash for clunkers seems to be working as designed.

Of course if you object to the design, I can understand that complaint.

But just because you object to the intentions of the program doesn't mean it's failed.

Merely that you don't like the outcome.

See the difference?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.

The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.

What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.

But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.

All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.

Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.

Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.

Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009


I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.

I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.

It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...

trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.

I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?

Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...

Care

Hmm... WOW! So we own a siginificant percentage of Toyote, Nissan and Hyundai? That's news... when did THAT happen?

But setting that aside, lets just assume for the sake of argument that 'we own 70% of the auto industry'...

Now, we loan ourselves money to go buy the products, that we loaned ourselves, to buy the companies which we loaned money to, so they could produce those products... how's that helping us, exactly?

Now Care will be unable to explain how our subsidizing the purchasing of new cars, which must drive up the the cost of used cars; which we did buy taking out loans to buy the products, which we took out loans to but the companies that produced them, helps us...

All she knows is that 'it sounds good, so it must BE GOOD...'

Excellent point and funny as hell!!!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union.

I have got to respectfully disagree with ya on this little point N1960...

When one removes a product which is being sought by consumers; one reduces supply of that product, thus where demand remains steady, the value of that product increases...

So, what destroying those cars does, is to increase the value of the remaining cars...

However, with that said, lets consider the weak economy, thus the natural increase in demand for used cars, during such periods; add that to the equation and IF these boneheads crush enough cars, we could be looking at quite a sellers market for the used car owners...

Now the cool part here is how this 'unintended consequence' as they so often DO... will actually end up INCREASING the number of used cars that remain on the road... and thus work AGAINST the eco-cranks and their goal to reduce auto-carbon emissions...

ROFL... They truly are the Ideological equivilent of The Keystone Cops.

 

[Navy1960]

Hey Navy I am new here can you explain what the power ranking and icons on the top left of your post is all about?

If you go here;

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum - FAQ: User Profile Features

it will explain a little about reputation points, the bar you see and the medals you see represent reputation points that people give you from time to time here. If you notice at the top left an icon that looks much like a "keys" if you click that on a posting a box will open and it will give you the opportunity to give a positive reputation on a posting that you think deserves it. That will update the users stats in Thanked X in Posts X. If you just wish to thank them for a useful post with adding to their reputation then all you need do is click on the Thanks icon in the lower right of the post. and it will add a blue thank you at the bottom of the post with your name. The reputation system is a method by which other posters can express their satisfaction or displeasure in someones postings here. However on the negative reputations here, most people do not neg rep. here unless it is a last resort. As for myself I have a personal policy of not doing it because I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion and if I happen to not like what they post then I can just move on. Hopefully that helps.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Thanks Navy.

 

[Navy1960]

After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union.

I have got to respectfully disagree with ya on this little point N1960...

When one removes a product which is being sought by consumers; one reduces supply of that product, thus where demand remains steady, the value of that product increases...

So, what destroying those cars does, is to increase the value of the remaining cars...

However, with that said, lets consider the weak economy, thus the natural increase in demand for used cars, during such periods; add that to the equation and IF these boneheads crush enough cars, we could be looking at quite a sellers market for the used car owners...

Now the cool part here is how this 'unintended consequence' as they so often DO... will actually end up INCREASING the number of used cars that remain on the road... and thus work AGAINST the eco-cranks and their goal to reduce auto-carbon emissions...

ROFL... They truly are the Ideological equivilent of The Keystone Cops.

Well there is that PI, and I stand corrected in that respect. I was trying to point out that each time it's pointed out that this program has some sort of enviromental impact makes me laugh when just about every environmental group has said that it has the equivilant of about an hours with of emissions. The idea of crushing these car's in the name of environmental protection has to be the dumbest idea since FDR wanted to add 6 more supremes to the court. I find it totally stupid to destroy an asset that the Govt. has purchased with taxpayer money especially when you consider the fact the Federal Govt. is not exactly in the black at the moment. This sort of reminds me of the same Govt. that sends Spruance class destroyers to the bottom as targets when other nations wanted to purchase them. Here's an idea, how about taking the cars and sending them to an auto auction and then taking that money and paying back all that money the Govt. has been borrowing from China for all this social engineering?

 

[caela]

sorry....i called it as it is caela! google is a friend!

here's just one quip on it!
GM-Union Deal Raises U.S. Stake - WSJ.com

By JOHN D. STOLL, JEFF MCCRACKEN and NEIL KING JR.

General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers have agreed to a new restructuring plan that would give the union a significantly smaller stake in the company than previously envisioned, and leave the U.S. government owning as much as 70% of the car maker.

The government's plan also calls for paying off in full GM's secured lenders, banks including Citigroup Inc. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. that are owed about $6 billion. That would remove one potential obstacle to a speedy bankruptcy reorganization.

well, what would you call it?

care

I call it the fat cats in Washington finding yet another way to line their pockets at taxpayers expense and managing to convince some people to thank them for it! Just because the government and GM agree that DC own's 70% of GM doesn't mean that WE own shit. With the way things stand now all the "ownership" really means is that the taxpayers have now been put on the hook to continue to help pay for a company that should have been allowed to die.

That may sound harsh but I am not a believer in the credo "It was to big to let it fail", that DC seems to like to spout these days. A number of people would have lost their jobs but (and this is my personal belief only) I don't think it would be nearly so many as the politicians would like to scare us into believing. I personally think a number of other companies would, likely, have taken advantage of picking up some cheap factories and equipment and that many of GM's workers, if they wanted to continue in the auto industry, would simply have ended up working for a different company.

But back to the original point I was making in my initial post... If you don't have a stock certificate YOU don't own ANY part of a company.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union.

I have got to respectfully disagree with ya on this little point N1960...

When one removes a product which is being sought by consumers; one reduces supply of that product, thus where demand remains steady, the value of that product increases...

So, what destroying those cars does, is to increase the value of the remaining cars...

However, with that said, lets consider the weak economy, thus the natural increase in demand for used cars, during such periods; add that to the equation and IF these boneheads crush enough cars, we could be looking at quite a sellers market for the used car owners...

Now the cool part here is how this 'unintended consequence' as they so often DO... will actually end up INCREASING the number of used cars that remain on the road... and thus work AGAINST the eco-cranks and their goal to reduce auto-carbon emissions...

ROFL... They truly are the Ideological equivilent of The Keystone Cops.

Well there is that PI, and I stand corrected in that respect. I was trying to point out that each time it's pointed out that this program has some sort of enviromental impact makes me laugh when just about every environmental group has said that it has the equivilant of about an hours with of emissions. The idea of crushing these car's in the name of environmental protection has to be the dumbest idea since FDR wanted to add 6 more supremes to the court. I find it totally stupid to destroy an asset that the Govt. has purchased with taxpayer money especially when you consider the fact the Federal Govt. is not exactly in the black at the moment. This sort of reminds me of the same Govt. that sends Spruance class destroyers to the bottom as targets when other nations wanted to purchase them. Here's an idea, how about taking the cars and sending them to an auto auction and then taking that money and paying back all that money the Govt. has been borrowing from China for all this social engineering?

Absolutely! Of course that serves reason, so the Leftist mind can't even consider it...

 

[Care4all]

sorry....i called it as it is caela! google is a friend!

here's just one quip on it!
GM-Union Deal Raises U.S. Stake - WSJ.com

By JOHN D. STOLL, JEFF MCCRACKEN and NEIL KING JR.

General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers have agreed to a new restructuring plan that would give the union a significantly smaller stake in the company than previously envisioned, and leave the U.S. government owning as much as 70% of the car maker.

The government's plan also calls for paying off in full GM's secured lenders, banks including Citigroup Inc. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. that are owed about $6 billion. That would remove one potential obstacle to a speedy bankruptcy reorganization.

well, what would you call it?

care

I call it the fat cats in Washington finding yet another way to line their pockets at taxpayers expense and managing to convince some people to thank them for it! Just because the government and GM agree that DC own's 70% of GM doesn't mean that WE own shit. With the way things stand now all the "ownership" really means is that the taxpayers have now been put on the hook to continue to help pay for a company that should have been allowed to die.

That may sound harsh but I am not a believer in the credo "It was to big to let it fail", that DC seems to like to spout these days. A number of people would have lost their jobs but (and this is my personal belief only) I don't think it would be nearly so many as the politicians would like to scare us into believing. I personally think a number of other companies would, likely, have taken advantage of picking up some cheap factories and equipment and that many of GM's workers, if they wanted to continue in the auto industry, would simply have ended up working for a different company.

But back to the original point I was making in my initial post... If you don't have a stock certificate YOU don't own ANY part of a company.

we, the us government do own preferred stock caela, that's what i was trying to tell ya...so does the gvt of Canada in GM....

and even though i didn't think our gvt should have bailed any of the banks, insurance companies or corporations out, nor felt the stimulus was focused enough to do anything...i am still pleased that this stimulus incentive got people opening their wallets for cars again...the industry, both foreign and domestic, was in a rut beyond ruts....

we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!

• The U.S. Treasury is prepared to provide approximately $30.1 billion of financing to support GM through an expedited chapter 11 proceeding and transition the new GM through its restructuring plan. The U.S. Treasury does not anticipate providing any additional assistance to GM beyond this commitment. In exchange for funds already committed by the U.S. Treasury and the new injection of $30.1 billion, the U.S. government will receive approximately $8.8 billion in debt and preferred stock in the new GM and approximately 60% of the equity of the new GM. The U.S. Treasury will also have the right to appoint the initial directors other than those that will be selected by the VEBA and the Canadian government.

• The Governments of Canada and Ontario will participate alongside the U.S. Treasury by lending $9.5 billion to GM and New GM. The Canadian and Ontario governments will receive approximately $1.7 billion in debt and preferred stock, and approximately 12% of the equity of the new GM. Based on its substantial financial contribution, the Canadian government will also have the right to select one initial director.

• Based on these steps, the new GM will have far less debt and a world class balance sheet. This will allow the company the financial stability to weather future market downturns and generate significant excess free cash flow to invest in the business.

• The new GM will also pursue a commitment to build a new small car in an idled UAW factory, which when in place will increase the share of U.S. production for U.S. sale from its current level of about 66% to over 70%.

The White House - Press Office - Fact Sheet on Obama Administration Auto Restructuring Initiative for General Motors

 

[dilloduck]

we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!

What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???

(rich people)

 

[Care4all]

we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!

What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???

(rich people)

that might be the case under most circumstances, but in this case us measly tax payers own 70% of gm, not the rich.....at least not the rich right at the moment, until they pay us back.

 

[dilloduck]

we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!

What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???

(rich people)

that might be the case under most circumstances, but in this case us measly tax payers own 70% of gm, not the rich.....at least not the rich right at the moment, until they pay us back.

dreamer

 

[Care4all]

What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???

(rich people)

that might be the case under most circumstances, but in this case us measly tax payers own 70% of gm, not the rich.....at least not the rich right at the moment, until they pay us back.

dreamer

maybe!

 

[Care4all]

i can not give up the good fight...i just can't take our situation with our unrepresentative gvt, the ruling class, whatever....and accept that our situation will always be the same ole same ole....

If you don't succeed, you try try again...

when you fall, you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and again...you give it another shot...

When the going gets tough, the tough get going...

I just can't accept or resign myself in to believing that there is NOTHING I can do to change things...so why bother at all...

I suppose, I'd prefer to believe that I can somewhat control my own destiny instead of believing there is nothing I can do about it!

 

[Camilla]

Nice post!

 

[pete]

I thought this was supposed to help the auto industry?

Duane Paddock, who owns a Chevrolet dealership near Buffalo, N.Y., said dealers may stop selling clunkers under the program because of the funding lags.

"I've got dealers who are reporting to me that they've got over $3 million that they've fronted and they haven't been paid anything. It's just killing dealer cash flow right now," said Paddock, who serves as co-chair of GM's northeast region dealer council.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the federal agency overseeing the program also known as NHTSA, said Friday that dealers have submitted requests for rebates that total $1.5 billion — half of the money allocated to the program — through the online system set up to process and pay the claims. But NHTSA did not provide a dollar figure for the total amount that has actually been paid since the program began July 27.

There are indications that not much of that money has actually flowed to dealers. A survey of about one-fifth of Virginia's 519 dealerships done this week by the Virginia Automobile Dealers Association found that only 2.8 percent of the roughly 4,000 Cash for Clunkers deals submitted to the government have been paid.

The Associated Press: Dealers yet to see most Cash for Clunkers payments

What a joke and had to rush another 2 billion for publicity.