Capitalism Saved The Miners

[Sallow]

Not quite. That's simply trade and it was found in the world, including in the market, long before the rise of capitalism.

Private trade for profit is capitalism. Capitalism was borne out of trade.

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

I've had this discussion with a few conservatives at the work place. Surprisingly, they didn't really understand all that Capitalism entailed..and described their economic utopia as being a place where the gold standard was put into place, and barter the principle means of trade.

 

[JBeukema]

Private trade for profit is capitalism. Capitalism was borne out of trade.

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

It's hilarious how stupid you are.

 

[JBeukema]

aha.

thanks.

how do ideologies save people then?

It's you assertion they do. You defend it.

it is the assertion presented in the OP and in the thread title.

i mock it.

I misunderstood.

I apologize.

 

[Paulie]

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

It's hilarious how stupid you are.

Because you're trying to make an argument out of a ******* WORD?

Capitalism was what it was, long before someone created a WORD for it.

Of course, you could always post your rebuttals instead of just calling people stupid. If you've got any.

 

[L.K.Eder]

It's you assertion they do. You defend it.

it is the assertion presented in the OP and in the thread title.

i mock it.

I misunderstood.

I apologize.

no problem, thanks for running with it, anyway. it makes my point clearer.

i am very lazy.

 

[Sallow]

Incorrect.

Capitalism is more than competition. It is the voluntary exchange of one value for another value by free participants in the market.

What???

You just described the BARTER system.

Please.

Definition of CAPITALISM
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

What I said is completely consistent with competition. The buyer is a free participant who chooses among competing products or services. He offers something of value (i.e. money or a payment plan) in exchange for the selected good or service - in a voluntary transaction.

What you described basically is a small part of Capitalism. And Capitalism depends on a great many things, such as protocols that ascribe the value to something..such as money..that everyone agrees upon. It depends on investment, or Capitalizing industry or services. It depends on return from those investments as well..we could go on..

Put it's far more complex then just the exchange of things of value (which again..is a part of it).

 

[JBeukema]

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

It's hilarious how stupid you are.

Because you're trying to make an argument out of a ******* WORD?

Capitalism was what it was, long before someone created a WORD for it.

Of course, you could always post your rebuttals instead of just calling people stupid. If you've got any.

Go to the local library and ask for books about capitalism. Come back when you know what it is.

 

[Sallow]

Private trade for profit is capitalism. Capitalism was borne out of trade.

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

No..really..it wasn't.

It was "born" when Merchants and Craftmens held the notion that their businesses were private and not under the ownership of a Monarch. That was quite a radical concept back in the day.

 

[Paulie]

It's hilarious how stupid you are.

Because you're trying to make an argument out of a ******* WORD?

Capitalism was what it was, long before someone created a WORD for it.

Of course, you could always post your rebuttals instead of just calling people stupid. If you've got any.

Go to the local library and ask for books about capitalism. Come back when you know what it is.

I'll get right on it Kruschev.

In the meantime, go to yours and ask for books about debating. Come back when you know what THAT is.

 

[Modbert]

Chile miners do not disclose ordeal details - USATODAY.com

The cause of the collapse remains under formal investigation, but one senior Codelco official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the AP that the mine's owners had cut corners for years. "It lacked even a minimal amount of support beams."

Ramirez acknowledged the cutting of corners.

 

[Paulie]

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

No..really..it wasn't.

It was "born" when Merchants and Craftmens held the notion that their businesses were private and not under the ownership of a Monarch. That was quite a radical concept back in the day.

Maybe you ought to read my post again, only this time read the word "privately".

I don't really know why you're trying to muddy the waters by adding governmental systems to the debate. Capitalism has nothing to do with government. There was capitalism long before governments were created.

 

[Sallow]

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

No..really..it wasn't.

It was "born" when Merchants and Craftmens held the notion that their businesses were private and not under the ownership of a Monarch. That was quite a radical concept back in the day.

Maybe you ought to read my post again, only this time read the word "privately".

I don't really know why you're trying to muddy the waters by adding governmental systems to the debate. Capitalism has nothing to do with government. There was capitalism long before governments were created.

I did..and it's still incorrect.

Trading value for value is not capitalism. It's barter. And no..it did not "exist" before governments were created. It absolutely depends on things such as courts (to enforce contracts) and banks (to establish a protocol value on something like money).

 

[JBeukema]

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

No..really..it wasn't.

It was "born" when Merchants and Craftmens held the notion that their businesses were private and not under the ownership of a Monarch. That was quite a radical concept back in the day.

Still not quite it. That still leaves mercantilism and the age of the guilds.

 

[JBeukema]

Glossary of Terms: Ca

Historical Development: Capitalism develops through various stages. Since capital is both a pre-condition and outcome of capitalism, a period of primitive accumulation marks the beginning of capitalism; this may involve outright theft and plunder, and in particular the creation of a class of people who no longer own any means of production – a proletariat.
By freeing the labour process from traditional forms and expanding labour cooperation through world trade, capitalism initiates a rapid transformation in the labour process and promotes the development of science and technology. Meanwhile, religion and kinship ties are continuously undermined. Capital is built up in a few countries at the expense of other countries which are used as sources of cheap labour and raw materials.
The competition between millions of small-scale producers which was characteristic of the early days of capitalism, leads to the concentration of capital in the hands of just a few as a more efficient means of production. At a certain point (the beginning of the 20th-century), the entire globe had been divided up between a few great powers. Thus begins the final stage in the development of capitalism, imperialism, characterised by the domination of the banks, the formation of large multi-national corporations, by war and revolution.
The free market that had been envisioned by Adam Smith was shown impossible by the late 19th and early 20th century, when monopolies dominated nations causing massive Economic collapses in the 1890s, a world production crisis during World War I, and the worldwide depression in the 1930s. Thereafter national, and later international, regulation of the capitalist marketplace became necessary (SEC, International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, etc.); while the growth of militarization remains a necessity to expend excess production. For example, the United States having overspent the Soviet Union in militarization, in the last decade of the 20th century continued to create wars throughout the world – Panama, Iraq, Bosnia, etc. – unleashing double and triple the firepower in all of World War II. After the incredible expenditure of vast munitions and weapons (over $300 billion per year), the subjugated and destroyed nations are then offered contracts and infiltrated by capitalist business for the process of "rebuilding".

 

[boedicca]

Let's all be clear that this definition is from MARXISTS.ORG.

Glossary of Terms: Ca

Historical Development: Capitalism develops through various stages. Since capital is both a pre-condition and outcome of capitalism, a period of primitive accumulation marks the beginning of capitalism; this may involve outright theft and plunder, and in particular the creation of a class of people who no longer own any means of production – a proletariat.
By freeing the labour process from traditional forms and expanding labour cooperation through world trade, capitalism initiates a rapid transformation in the labour process and promotes the development of science and technology. Meanwhile, religion and kinship ties are continuously undermined. Capital is built up in a few countries at the expense of other countries which are used as sources of cheap labour and raw materials.
The competition between millions of small-scale producers which was characteristic of the early days of capitalism, leads to the concentration of capital in the hands of just a few as a more efficient means of production. At a certain point (the beginning of the 20th-century), the entire globe had been divided up between a few great powers. Thus begins the final stage in the development of capitalism, imperialism, characterised by the domination of the banks, the formation of large multi-national corporations, by war and revolution.
The free market that had been envisioned by Adam Smith was shown impossible by the late 19th and early 20th century, when monopolies dominated nations causing massive Economic collapses in the 1890s, a world production crisis during World War I, and the worldwide depression in the 1930s. Thereafter national, and later international, regulation of the capitalist marketplace became necessary (SEC, International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, etc.); while the growth of militarization remains a necessity to expend excess production. For example, the United States having overspent the Soviet Union in militarization, in the last decade of the 20th century continued to create wars throughout the world – Panama, Iraq, Bosnia, etc. – unleashing double and triple the firepower in all of World War II. After the incredible expenditure of vast munitions and weapons (over $300 billion per year), the subjugated and destroyed nations are then offered contracts and infiltrated by capitalist business for the process of "rebuilding".

 

[Sallow]

Because the first time someone privately traded value for value, capitalism was born.

I didn't really have to clarify that, did I?

No..really..it wasn't.

It was "born" when Merchants and Craftmens held the notion that their businesses were private and not under the ownership of a Monarch. That was quite a radical concept back in the day.

Still not quite it. That still leaves mercantilism and the age of the guilds.

Sort of "nutshelling" here. The real definition of Capitalism would require much more space then I've the inclination to fill.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Private trade for profit is capitalism. Capitalism was borne out of trade.

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

I've had this discussion with a few conservatives at the work place. Surprisingly, they didn't really understand all that Capitalism entailed..and described their economic utopia as being a place where the gold standard was put into place, and barter the principle means of trade.

If there's a gold standard in place why would people revert to barter?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No..really..it wasn't.

It was "born" when Merchants and Craftmens held the notion that their businesses were private and not under the ownership of a Monarch. That was quite a radical concept back in the day.

Maybe you ought to read my post again, only this time read the word "privately".

I don't really know why you're trying to muddy the waters by adding governmental systems to the debate. Capitalism has nothing to do with government. There was capitalism long before governments were created.

I did..and it's still incorrect.

Trading value for value is not capitalism. It's barter. And no..it did not "exist" before governments were created. It absolutely depends on things such as courts (to enforce contracts) and banks (to establish a protocol value on something like money).

Trading value for value is not barter. We trade value for value to this day, but instead of limiting ourselves by barter we use a medium of exchange called dollars.

 

[Sallow]

If the trade is capitalism, how can capitalism have been born out of the trade?

You really think barter and trade didn't exist before the rise of the capitalist system?

I've had this discussion with a few conservatives at the work place. Surprisingly, they didn't really understand all that Capitalism entailed..and described their economic utopia as being a place where the gold standard was put into place, and barter the principle means of trade.

If there's a gold standard in place why would people revert to barter?

Not quite sure..perhaps you might ask the co-workers I was discussing this with.

But my take is that perhaps the concept that labor has no real value. It's only "things" that do. At least that was what I gleaned from my conversations.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I've had this discussion with a few conservatives at the work place. Surprisingly, they didn't really understand all that Capitalism entailed..and described their economic utopia as being a place where the gold standard was put into place, and barter the principle means of trade.

If there's a gold standard in place why would people revert to barter?

Not quite sure..perhaps you might ask the co-workers I was discussing this with.

But my take is that perhaps the concept that labor has no real value. It's only "things" that do. At least that was what I gleaned from my conversations.

My guess is that you merely got their position wrong since you've wrongly defined barter in this very thread.