Can we all agree that Germany no longer needs U.S. Occupation?

[Spare_change]

What, possibly, makes you think we are shoving our nose where it does not belong?

Think hard. I promise it will not hurt!

Non-responsive.

Waiting.

Please step up ... I would love to give you a lesson in geopolitics. You most assuredly need it.

 

[Jroc]

Seriously. WTF are we still doing in Germany?

For how many decades must Germany atone for the sins of prior generations before it is allowed complete autonomy?

Our military should GET THE **** OUT. (and save us a bunch of money in the process)




Free Germany NOW!!

Sing The Scorpions with me:

Take me to the magic of the moment
On a glory night
Where the children of tomorrow dream away (dream away)
In the wind of change

Europe needs us to protect them. We fund their military protection.. They fund their social programs

 

[Jroc]

it isn't just protecting the EU,

Europe is also much closer to the middle east and northern Africa for us to deploy from if there was a need....

our NATO forces reside in Europe as well....I lived on a NATO base in Northern Italy for 3 years....actually it was only an Air Force ''Station'' when I lived there but it has grown in to a huge Air Force Base, while other bases there have been closed or minimized.

our military has closed several bases in all of Europe in previous spending cuts.... and maybe there is room for more consolidation, but we will never leave completely.

We don't have to fund it all sweetie, Europe isn't poor, Although they are shipping in a bunch of poor people (mostly muslims) from the Mideast...Not too bright really.

 

[Jarlaxle]

What, possibly, makes you think we are shoving our nose where it does not belong?

Think hard. I promise it will not hurt!

Non-responsive.

Waiting.

Please step up ... I would love to give you a lesson in geopolitics. You most assuredly need it.

Maybe, just MAYBE, the billion-plus dollars wasted and the thousands of dead Americans in Iraq? The 16+ year clusterfuck in Afghanistan, which shows the signs of going on forever?

 

[Jroc]

Can we all agree that Germany no longer needs U.S. Occupation?

The occupation of Germany ended in the 1949-1956 time frame.

We remained there to counter a very real Soviet threat until the early 1990s.

We have been there since the early 1990s to counter the Russian threat.

Trying to 'Divide and Conquer', Comrade Commisar?

We continue to hold the American Shield over Europe - the ancestral home region of a majority of the American population.

Advance bases and pre-positioned equipment in Europe continue to make good strategic and tactical sense.

We have already closed most of our bases in Germany and brought most of our units and troops home, in the time frame 1995 - 2010.

What remains is the functional "core" needed to crank back up to a large-scale presence quickly, to counter a threat on short notice.

Close enough for Gubmint work.

So long as our European cousins want us there, we'll stay.

Yeah?...Do we have to pay for all?

 

[beagle9]

Seriously. WTF are we still doing in Germany?

For how many decades must Germany atone for the sins of prior generations before it is allowed complete autonomy?

Our military should GET THE **** OUT. (and save us a bunch of money in the process)




Free Germany NOW!!

Sing The Scorpions with me:

Take me to the magic of the moment
On a glory night
Where the children of tomorrow dream away (dream away)
In the wind of change

. Why is it costing us to be in Germany ?? Shouldn't we be their guest that is highly respected due our sacrifices during their empowering of a murderous thug like Hitler ?? We freed them, help rebuild them, and we should be welcome there until we decide to leave.

 

[Spare_change]

What, possibly, makes you think we are shoving our nose where it does not belong?

Think hard. I promise it will not hurt!

Non-responsive.

Waiting.

Please step up ... I would love to give you a lesson in geopolitics. You most assuredly need it.

Maybe, just MAYBE, the billion-plus dollars wasted and the thousands of dead Americans in Iraq? The 16+ year clusterfuck in Afghanistan, which shows the signs of going on forever?

Change the subject, much?

But ... in the interest of your sorely lacking education ....

You are aware, of course, that Afghanistan serves as the hiding area for terrorists, right? That would be the terrorists that have attacked/threatened/killed Americans. Our function there is to assist the Afghani government in suppressing terrorist activities, and train them to provide security against a terrorist takeover. Further, we serve as a leveling influence between Pakistan and India.

Why has it been 16 years? Simple. You're aware, I'm sure, that Clinton re-scoped the US military mission from fighting two wars simultaneously to fighting one war - and one holding action simultaneously. (He used the redefined mission as an excuse to gut the military in an attempt to balance the budget) After 9-11, Bush had to make a decision of where he was going to go to war - Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm sure you were also aware that, at the time, Iraq had the 4th largest military in the world, while Afghanistan was much less so (primarily based on the damage inflicted by the Russians).

There is a military axiom that you always fight the big dog first. This is done because you are the most prepared, most armed, and most trained at the very beginning. Continued battles serve to lessen your readiness and consume your materiel. So, Bush went into Iraq, and fought a holding action in Afghanistan.

At the end of his last term, he had virtually defeated Iraq, and was prepared to turn his attention to Afghanistan. However, Obama, who ran on a "get out of the Middle East" failed to negotiate the settlement with Iraq in good faith. He did not understand that we couldn't just walk away. So, we did .. and I'm sure you now understand what a catastrophic mistake that was. It gave birth to ISIS.

Obama spent his 8 years playing lip service to Afghanistan - focusing solely on minimizing our involvement, avoiding confrontation, and desperately seeking a way out of it. When it takes you 5 months to make a troop-deployment decision AFTER all your military professionals tell you what should be done, you have to seriously question his commitment.

So, now you understand the Afghanistan "cluster ****" - you can lay it directly at the feet of Clinton and Obama.

You're welcome. Don't you feel ever so much better now?

 

[Spare_change]

Seriously. WTF are we still doing in Germany?

For how many decades must Germany atone for the sins of prior generations before it is allowed complete autonomy?

Our military should GET THE **** OUT. (and save us a bunch of money in the process)




Free Germany NOW!!

Sing The Scorpions with me:

Take me to the magic of the moment
On a glory night
Where the children of tomorrow dream away (dream away)
In the wind of change

. Why is it costing us to be in Germany ?? Shouldn't we be their guest that is highly respected due our sacrifices during their empowering of a murderous thug like Hitler ?? We freed them, help rebuild them, and we should be welcome there until we decide to leave.

Amazing.

 

[Kondor3]

...Yeah?...Do we have to pay for all?

We get them to pay as much as they can.

But even if they don't pay one Euro...

What is the value of being able to fight a war with the Russians forward, rather than on US soil?

The cost of maintaining forward bases pales by comparison.

Especially when those forward bases are merely a shell designed to pre-position equipment and to ramp back up quickly to a full-scale presence if needed.

What is the value of forcing the Russians to take US Rapid Redeployment into serious account when contemplating warfare in Continental Europe?

The cost of maintaining a few forward bases pales by comparison.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Change the subject, much?

Meaningless noise.

But ... in the interest of your sorely lacking education ....

Personal attack.

You are aware, of course, that Afghanistan serves as the hiding area for terrorists, right? That would be the terrorists that have attacked/threatened/killed Americans. Our function there is to assist the Afghani government in suppressing terrorist activities, and train them to provide security against a terrorist takeover. Further, we serve as a leveling influence between Pakistan and India.

Which has failed utterly. There is no "Afghani government", never really was, and there never will be without thousands of US troops to prop it up. "Afghanistan" is lines on a map, not a country.

Why has it been 16 years? Simple. You're aware, I'm sure, that Clinton re-scoped the US military mission from fighting two wars simultaneously to fighting one war - and one holding action simultaneously. (He used the redefined mission as an excuse to gut the military in an attempt to balance the budget) After 9-11, Bush had to make a decision of where he was going to go to war - Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm sure you were also aware that, at the time, Iraq had the 4th largest military in the world, while Afghanistan was much less so (primarily based on the damage inflicted by the Russians).

It was 16 years because nobody had the stones to do it the right way: go in, sterilize the place, and leave-done in a few months.

There is a military axiom that you always fight the big dog first. This is done because you are the most prepared, most armed, and most trained at the very beginning. Continued battles serve to lessen your readiness and consume your materiel. So, Bush went into Iraq, and fought a holding action in Afghanistan.

The invasion of Iraq was idiotic and should never have happened.

At the end of his last term, he had virtually defeated Iraq, and was prepared to turn his attention to Afghanistan. However, Obama, who ran on a "get out of the Middle East" failed to negotiate the settlement with Iraq in good faith. He did not understand that we couldn't just walk away. So, we did .. and I'm sure you now understand what a catastrophic mistake that was. It gave birth to ISIS.

We should never have been in there to begin with.

Obama spent his 8 years playing lip service to Afghanistan - focusing solely on minimizing our involvement, avoiding confrontation, and desperately seeking a way out of it. When it takes you 5 months to make a troop-deployment decision AFTER all your military professionals tell you what should be done, you have to seriously question his commitment.

Irrelevant, because (one more time) all troops should have already been removed.

So, now you understand the Afghanistan "cluster ****" - you can lay it directly at the feet of Clinton and Obama.

And Bush, and Clinton, and GHW Bush, and Reagan, and Carter, and every other President going back to Eisenhower.

You're welcome. Don't you feel ever so much better now?

Naah, not really.

 

[Kondor3]

...It was 16 years because nobody had the stones to do it the right way: go in, sterilize the place, and leave-done in a few months...

It would have been much easier to nuke that $hithole, but politically impractical.

As an alternative...

We should have done a much better job at Tora Bora and not let Osama bin Laden slip across the mountain passes into Pakistan.

We should have killed the sonofabitch then-and-there, slaughtered as many Taliban and leveled as many Taliban strongholds as we could, then just walked away...

Leaving them stumbling-about in the smoking ruins, rather than trying yet another round of doomed-to-fail Nation Building, which we are not very good at.

We were able to Nation-Build in both Germany and Japan because we were dealing with formerly-civilized people grounded in civilized belief-systems.

We haven't been very successful at Nation Building either before or after those two successes, and we should really stop trying.

Especially when dealing with Mountain Goat Buggerers practicing a vile 1300-year-old Warrior Cultism that's kept them in the Dark Ages into our present time.

Hammering Afghanistan was a 'Righteous Shoot'.

But we should have been in-and-outta there inside of six months.

Every 7-year-old kid playing backyard cops and robbers knows to put a couple of kid-cops in back of the garage, to cut off the bad guys' escape route.

Why-the-hell our tactical planners didn't park a couple of airborne battalions in the mountain passes to cut off Tora Bora survivors fleeing to Pakistan is beyond me.

Maybe we should have let a 7-year-old kid do the planning on that one.

 

[BlackSand]

So when the price of oil quadruples because someone mines the Straits of Hormuz you won't be concerned that our military is three weeks away and has no lines of supply to counter that problem? That's why we have minesweepers forward deployed in that region.

My property is on top of the Haynesville Shale.
Of course some will suffer ... And even more were stupid enough to lease their mineral rights instead holding out long-term for the royalties.

But ... Making shitloads of money without endangering our troops would be fine with me ...
Sorry to see you would rather pay foreigners instead of me, endanger our troops ... And even lose the tax revenue ... Thanks for nothing.

.

 

[Jarlaxle]

...It was 16 years because nobody had the stones to do it the right way: go in, sterilize the place, and leave-done in a few months...

It would have been much easier to nuke that $hithole, but politically impractical.

As an alternative...

We should have done a much better job at Tora Bora and not let Osama bin Laden slip across the mountain passes into Pakistan.

We should have killed the sonofabitch then-and-there, slaughtered as many Taliban and leveled as many Taliban strongholds as we could, then just walked away...

Leaving them stumbling-about in the smoking ruins, rather than trying yet another round of doomed-to-fail Nation Building, which we are not very good at.

We were able to Nation-Build in both Germany and Japan because we were dealing with formerly-civilized people grounded in civilized belief-systems.

We haven't been very successful at Nation Building either before or after those two successes, and we should really stop trying.

Especially when dealing with Mountain Goat Buggerers practicing a vile 1300-year-old Warrior Cultism that's kept them in the Dark Ages into our present time.

Hammering Afghanistan was a 'Righteous Shoot'.

But we should have been in-and-outta there inside of six months.

Every 7-year-old kid playing backyard cops and robbers knows to put a couple of kid-cops in back of the garage, to cut off the bad guys' escape route.

Why-the-hell our tactical planners didn't park a couple of airborne battalions in the mountain passes to cut off Tora Bora survivors fleeing to Pakistan is beyond me.

Maybe we should have let a 7-year-old kid do the planning on that one.

Not nukes...I was thinking nerve gas. Go in and STERILIZE the place-nobody out, no survivors, the entire area an uninhabitable wasteland for centuries. All water poisoned, all arable land sterilized, all infrastructure destroyed, all buildings leveled.

 

[Dschrute3]

I can definitely agree. Personally, i feel NATO should be disbanded. It's no longer a 'Defensive' entity. It's now all around the world starting conflicts. Time to abolish it. And as far as Germany goes, there are many Germans who still want a US presence in their country. They should just put it to a vote, and do what the German People decide.

 

[Spare_change]

Change the subject, much?

Meaningless noise.

But ... in the interest of your sorely lacking education ....

Personal attack.

You are aware, of course, that Afghanistan serves as the hiding area for terrorists, right? That would be the terrorists that have attacked/threatened/killed Americans. Our function there is to assist the Afghani government in suppressing terrorist activities, and train them to provide security against a terrorist takeover. Further, we serve as a leveling influence between Pakistan and India.

Which has failed utterly. There is no "Afghani government", never really was, and there never will be without thousands of US troops to prop it up. "Afghanistan" is lines on a map, not a country.

Why has it been 16 years? Simple. You're aware, I'm sure, that Clinton re-scoped the US military mission from fighting two wars simultaneously to fighting one war - and one holding action simultaneously. (He used the redefined mission as an excuse to gut the military in an attempt to balance the budget) After 9-11, Bush had to make a decision of where he was going to go to war - Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm sure you were also aware that, at the time, Iraq had the 4th largest military in the world, while Afghanistan was much less so (primarily based on the damage inflicted by the Russians).

It was 16 years because nobody had the stones to do it the right way: go in, sterilize the place, and leave-done in a few months.

There is a military axiom that you always fight the big dog first. This is done because you are the most prepared, most armed, and most trained at the very beginning. Continued battles serve to lessen your readiness and consume your materiel. So, Bush went into Iraq, and fought a holding action in Afghanistan.

The invasion of Iraq was idiotic and should never have happened.

At the end of his last term, he had virtually defeated Iraq, and was prepared to turn his attention to Afghanistan. However, Obama, who ran on a "get out of the Middle East" failed to negotiate the settlement with Iraq in good faith. He did not understand that we couldn't just walk away. So, we did .. and I'm sure you now understand what a catastrophic mistake that was. It gave birth to ISIS.

We should never have been in there to begin with.

Obama spent his 8 years playing lip service to Afghanistan - focusing solely on minimizing our involvement, avoiding confrontation, and desperately seeking a way out of it. When it takes you 5 months to make a troop-deployment decision AFTER all your military professionals tell you what should be done, you have to seriously question his commitment.

Irrelevant, because (one more time) all troops should have already been removed.

So, now you understand the Afghanistan "cluster ****" - you can lay it directly at the feet of Clinton and Obama.

And Bush, and Clinton, and GHW Bush, and Reagan, and Carter, and every other President going back to Eisenhower.

You're welcome. Don't you feel ever so much better now?

Naah, not really.

I happily support your right to have an opinion.

I just didn't realize it was going to be so incredibly ill-informed and misguided.

 

[Spare_change]

I can definitely agree. Personally, i feel NATO should be disbanded. It's no longer a 'Defensive' entity. It's now all around the world starting conflicts. Time to abolish it. And as far as Germany goes, there are many Germans who still want a US presence in their country. They should just put it to a vote, and do what the German People decide.

NATO is a treaty - an agreement - nothing more, nothing less.

You propose we abrogate our commitment? That we go back on our word?

Interesting.

 

[Dschrute3]

I can definitely agree. Personally, i feel NATO should be disbanded. It's no longer a 'Defensive' entity. It's now all around the world starting conflicts. Time to abolish it. And as far as Germany goes, there are many Germans who still want a US presence in their country. They should just put it to a vote, and do what the German People decide.

NATO is a treaty - an agreement - nothing more, nothing less.

You propose we abrogate our commitment? That we go back on our word?

Interesting.

NATO is no longer a defensive entity. It's promoting conflict around the world at this point. That's not what it was set up for. Time to disband it and move on.

 

[Spare_change]

I can definitely agree. Personally, i feel NATO should be disbanded. It's no longer a 'Defensive' entity. It's now all around the world starting conflicts. Time to abolish it. And as far as Germany goes, there are many Germans who still want a US presence in their country. They should just put it to a vote, and do what the German People decide.

NATO is a treaty - an agreement - nothing more, nothing less.

You propose we abrogate our commitment? That we go back on our word?

Interesting.

NATO is no longer a defensive entity. It's promoting conflict around the world at this point. That's not what it was set up for. Time to disband it and move on.

Promoting conflict around the world, huh?

Maybe you can give us some examples, right? Heck, just give us two or three ... that'll be enough.

 

[BulletProof]

Europe needs us to protect them. We fund their military protection.. They fund their social programs

Our Zionist war mongers who want US troops in Germany and everywhere else enable and facilitate the cultural decline of the US, Germany, etc.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I happily support your right to have an opinion.

I just didn't realize it was going to be so incredibly ill-informed and misguided.

I accept your concession.