Call Apartheid in Israel by Its Name

[Shusha]

What makes it Jewish land?

Oslo Accords. Signed treaty. I said that already.

So Palestinians can be barred from building or living there? And here you were complaining about Jews not being allowed to live in certain areas....

So Jews can be barred from building or living there? That was YOUR claim -- not mine. Your claim was that it was Palestinian land and that only Palestinians can build there and if Israel builds there they are STEALING land.

My claim is that its disputed territory, which both people are trying to utilize or control pending an end-of-conflict agreement, with my additional trump card of Oslo.

So tell me again, how, exactly, Israel is stealing this land? She isn't.

 

[Coyote]

What makes it Jewish land?

Oslo Accords. Signed treaty. I said that already.

So Palestinians can be barred from building or living there? And here you were complaining about Jews not being allowed to live in certain areas....

So Jews can be barred from building or living there? That was YOUR claim -- not mine. Your claim was that it was Palestinian land and that only Palestinians can build there and if Israel builds there they are STEALING land.

I didn't claim they should be barred. It was Palestinian land and if they are going to build there shouldn't they purchase it or negotiate with the Palestinians who own it? Otherwise yes, it's stealing. Not only that but the communities they are building are JEWISH only...so what makes them any better than the Palestinians? [/quote]

My claim is that its disputed territory, which both people are trying to utilize or control pending an end-of-conflict agreement, with my additional trump card of Oslo.

So tell me again, how, exactly, Israel is stealing this land? She isn't.

The trump card of Oslo doesn't permit them to take other people's farms.

When Israel confiscates land for it's barrier wall...is it Jewish farmland or Palestinian farmland?

Why can't Palestinians or Arab Israeli's build on that land?

 

[P F Tinmore]

What makes it Jewish land?

Oslo Accords. Signed treaty. I said that already.

So Palestinians can be barred from building or living there? And here you were complaining about Jews not being allowed to live in certain areas....

So Jews can be barred from building or living there? That was YOUR claim -- not mine. Your claim was that it was Palestinian land and that only Palestinians can build there and if Israel builds there they are STEALING land.

I didn't claim they should be barred. It was Palestinian land and if they are going to build there shouldn't they purchase it or negotiate with the Palestinians who own it? Otherwise yes, it's stealing. Not only that but the communities they are building are JEWISH only...so what makes them any better than the Palestinians?

My claim is that its disputed territory, which both people are trying to utilize or control pending an end-of-conflict agreement, with my additional trump card of Oslo.

So tell me again, how, exactly, Israel is stealing this land? She isn't.

The trump card of Oslo doesn't permit them to take other people's farms.

When Israel confiscates land for it's barrier wall...is it Jewish farmland or Palestinian farmland?

Why can't Palestinians or Arab Israeli's build on that land?

Any treaty that violates the rights of people is void.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote and P F Tinmore . Its. not. privately. owned. land. So what makes it "Palestinian land". Your claim, your burden of proof.

 

[Shusha]

Not only that but the communities they are building are JEWISH only...so what makes them any better than the Palestinians?

To my knowledge there are no laws which state that only Jews can live in those communities. If you have a law which says differently, please post it.

 

[Challenger]

Not only that but the communities they are building are JEWISH only...so what makes them any better than the Palestinians?

To my knowledge there are no laws which state that only Jews can live in those communities. If you have a law which says differently, please post it.

Admissions Committee Law 2011

http://www.knesset.gov.il/Laws/Data/law/2286/2286.pdf

 

[Shusha]

Not only that but the communities they are building are JEWISH only...so what makes them any better than the Palestinians?

To my knowledge there are no laws which state that only Jews can live in those communities. If you have a law which says differently, please post it.

Admissions Committee Law 2011

http://www.knesset.gov.il/Laws/Data/law/2286/2286.pdf

The text of the Admissions Committee Law 2011 in English.

In part:

(C) The admissions committee will not refuse to accept a candidate for reasons of race, religion, gender, nationality, disability, personal status, age, parenthood, sexual orientation, country of origin, political-party opinion or affiliation.

So no, there is no law which states that only Jews can live in those communities. That said, the law also states:

The candidate is not suitable for the social life in the community; a decision by the admissions committee to refuse to accept a candidate due to this consideration will be based on a professional opinion by someone who is expert in identifying such suitability; (5) The candidate‟s lack of compatibility with the social-cultural fabric of the community town, when there is reason to assume that this would harm this fabric;

which can be used by the admissions committee to reject an applicant for vague reasons, and can, and does, result in discrimination including a reluctance to apply to live in these communities. In some cases, such a rejection has been overturned by those who pursue the case in court.

So yes, discrimination most surely exists. But the law itself does not permit only Jews to live in those communities.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote and P F Tinmore . Its. not. privately. owned. land. So what makes it "Palestinian land". Your claim, your burden of proof.

Is it or isn't it?

Israeli land and property laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Coyote]

Not only that but the communities they are building are JEWISH only...so what makes them any better than the Palestinians?

To my knowledge there are no laws which state that only Jews can live in those communities. If you have a law which says differently, please post it.

Admissions Committee Law 2011

http://www.knesset.gov.il/Laws/Data/law/2286/2286.pdf

The text of the Admissions Committee Law 2011 in English.

In part:

(C) The admissions committee will not refuse to accept a candidate for reasons of race, religion, gender, nationality, disability, personal status, age, parenthood, sexual orientation, country of origin, political-party opinion or affiliation.

So no, there is no law which states that only Jews can live in those communities. That said, the law also states:

The candidate is not suitable for the social life in the community; a decision by the admissions committee to refuse to accept a candidate due to this consideration will be based on a professional opinion by someone who is expert in identifying such suitability; (5) The candidate‟s lack of compatibility with the social-cultural fabric of the community town, when there is reason to assume that this would harm this fabric;

which can be used by the admissions committee to reject an applicant for vague reasons, and can, and does, result in discrimination including a reluctance to apply to live in these communities. In some cases, such a rejection has been overturned by those who pursue the case in court.

So yes, discrimination most surely exists. But the law itself does not permit only Jews to live in those communities.

The law does, without explicitely stating it. Instead of saying they can not discrimminate on the basis of x y z....they allow them a legal loophole in the way they choose to word it.

The reality, on the ground, is the majority of those new settlements go to Jews and the communities are Jewish only. They're forcing Bedouins out of their "illegal" villages (substandard housing) in order to build new and better housing and a new community but is it for Beduoins? Can they live there?

 

[Shusha]

Coyote What makes it "Palestinian land"?

And the law explicitly states that rejection of admission to a community can not be based on race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, gender, disability, personal status, age, parenthood, sexual orientation, country of origin, political opinion or affiliation.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote and P F Tinmore . Its. not. privately. owned. land. So what makes it "Palestinian land". Your claim, your burden of proof.

Is it or isn't it?

I've had a chance to do some more research this morning. And everything I have found thus far indicates what I had originally posted -- which is that there is no private ownership of land in this territory and that Israel thoroughly researched this ahead of time. If you have specific information to the contrary (family name, legal claim to title, anything) you should show it.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote and P F Tinmore . Its. not. privately. owned. land. So what makes it "Palestinian land". Your claim, your burden of proof.

Is it or isn't it?

I've had a chance to do some more research this morning. And everything I have found thus far indicates what I had originally posted -- which is that there is no private ownership of land in this territory and that Israel thoroughly researched this ahead of time. If you have specific information to the contrary (family name, legal claim to title, anything) you should show it.

The article I quoted stated that Israel has confiscated land through "absentee landowner" laws - which indicates there are owners.

You're asking me to provide info to the contrary but you aren't exactly showing info either

 

[Coyote]

What is the Absentee Property Law?


The Absentee Property Law (Absentee Property Law)was enacted by the Knesset in 1950. The provisions of the Law were made effective retroactively, applying from November 30, 1947 (the day after the UN vote establishing the State of Israel) and remaining in effect until the state of emergency in Israel expires (that state of emergency remains in effect until the present day). Under the Absentee Property Law, any individual owning property in Israel who has been present in “enemy territory”, or is a citizen of an enemy state, is deemed an “absentee.” Properties whose owners are deemed “absentees” automatically become “absentee properties.” Title of those properties is granted to the Custodian of Absentee Property who, under law, has the authority to transfer said titles to these lands to Israel’s Development Authority – a body that is part of the Israel Land Authority.



The Absentee Property Law was the major vehicle through which Israel took control of property owned by Palestinians who fled or were expelled from Israel in the war in 1948. Between 1948 and 1967, the Absentee Property Law enabled the newly-born state of Israel to legally place such property at the disposal of the Israeli public and, in this manner, millions of dunams of privately-owned Palestinian lands were effectively “nationalized” and re-purposed for the construction of development towns, kibbutzim and moshavim inside the Green Line.

Under the Absentee Property Law, “enemy territory” includes not only Arab states that took part in the 1948 war against Israel, but also the West Bank. This includes East Jerusalem, which between 1949 and 1967 was an integral part of the West Bank, all of which were under the control of Jordan (an “enemy state”). When Israel annexed Jordanian East Jerusalem and 27 surrounding villages (around 6.5 sq. kms.) in July 1967, shortly after the Six-Day War, the Absentee Property Law automatically became applicable vis-à-vis Palestinian-owned properties in East Jerusalem. Virtually all of the residents of East Jerusalem at the time were Jordanian citizens. Moreover, much of the land in East Jerusalem was owned, in whole or in part, by the residents of Ramallah, Bethlehem, and other places in the West Bank. Consequently, rigorous application of the Absentee Property Law would have undermined the validity of much of the property rights in the Palestinian sector of East Jerusalem.



In 1968, Israel began an effort to enforce the Absentee Property Law in East Jerusalem. At that time, a major international controversy ensued. As a result, then-Attorney General Meir Shamgar (later the Chief Justice of the Israeli High Court of Justice), issued a binding legal opinion whereby properties in East Jerusalem belonging West Bank residents would not be declared an absentee property, provided he or she had an agent or relation within the city who managed the property on his or her behalf. In effect Shamgar ruled that the Absentee Property Law would not be applied systematically to properties in East Jerusalem that were owned by residents of the West Bank. Shamgar’s guidelines remained secret, becoming public knowledge only decades later, when they were no longer in effect.



In 1977, Menachem Begin was elected Prime Minister of Israel. In December of that same year, the Shamgar ruling was overturned by Begin’s government and replaced by another secret governmental decision – this time to stipulating that there was no restriction on the applicability of the Absentee Property Law with respect to East Jerusalem. Since that time, the use of the Absentee Property Law in East Jerusalem has almost invariably been cloaked in secrecy. Nonetheless, based on empirical data it appears that from 1977 through the present day, the law has never been systematically enforced in East Jerusalem and, with only one exception, has not been exploited as a major tool of Israeli policy in East Jerusalem. That exception, however, is a serious and illuminating one, involving the extremely sensitive neighborhoods of the Old City’s Muslim Quarter and Silwan.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote What makes it "Palestinian land"?

And the law explicitly states that rejection of admission to a community can not be based on race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, gender, disability, personal status, age, parenthood, sexual orientation, country of origin, political opinion or affiliation.

Yet it has this loophole: The candidate is not suitable for the social life in the community

that makes a parody out of the law.

 

[Shusha]

The article I quoted stated that Israel has confiscated land through "absentee landowner" laws - which indicates there are owners.

You're asking me to provide info to the contrary but you aren't exactly showing info either

You claim that this particular slice of land is "Palestinian land". What evidence are you using to support your claim?

You have since made a new claim that it is actually not just "Palestinian land" but privately owned "Palestinian" land. What evidence are you using to support your claim? You have referenced a particular law -- so please show how it applies specifically to this case.

Here are portions of some of the articles I've been reading:

"The process of final declaration as proscribed by the authorities is in place as an extra protection of private property rights," it said. "As such, in the case where the sovereign power wants to advance building plans in an area where the land registry record is not complete it has to do an in-depth survey of the land by law, to ensure 1000% that the land is not privately owned."

"After decades of due process the land was surveyed and considered wasteland/ownerless (see above more info on issue of ownerless), yet even so a 45 day window of appeal is available by law,"...



Under Israeli military rules, Palestinian landowners can object to the decision within 45 days, but such objections cannot succeed unless Palestinians can prove individual land ownership.



Broadly, land in Judea and Samaria falls into one of three legal categories: state land, private land, and land whose status is to be determined. The area in question had the status of territory whose status is to be determined. However, an investigation was required before the change of status to state land could be announced: That lengthy investigation, completed this summer, determined its status. No private Arab ownership was uncovered. Now there will be a window of opportunity for those who might wish to contest this finding. And as we are looking at a bureaucratic process, it will be some time before any actual building is done....

Only 507 housing units were approved for construction by Netanyahu’s government in the first six months of 2014, a 71.9 percent decrease from the same period in 2013, with about one-third of those being built inside the major blocks that it is understood Israel will keep in any final status agreement. For a population of over 300,000 Israelis living in the West Bank, that pace of construction does not even allow for natural population growth, much less rapid expansion....

At the end of the day, the annexation is a symbolic move. Those lands are going to remain Israel’s no matter what: They are populated by some 20,000 Israelis, adjacent to the pre-1967 border, and were recognized in previous negotiations as part of the areas Israel would keep and for which it would swap Israeli land elsewhere.



The COGAT unit, no friend of the Jewish communities of Judea and Samaria, astonishingly yet correctly ruled after an extensive investigation that “none of the land is privately owned Palestinian land.”

Already self-proclaimed “human rights” NGOs are teaming up with local Palestinian leaders to claim that the land really belongs to nearby Palestinian communities–despite the fact that none of the communities possesses a deed to the property....



There are also these neat little booklets about the villages in the area of Gush Etzion. Including this one about Surif, a village in Area B (under PA civil authority).

And, once again, the area in question is allocated to Area C -- under full Israeli civil and security control.




So, what makes it "Palestinian land"?

 

[Shusha]

Yet it has this loophole: The candidate is not suitable for the social life in the community that makes a parody out of the law.

The "loophole" does not change the law. And rejections by community associations have, in fact, been challenged and won. And there are, in fact, Israeli Arabs living in at least some of these communities.

And the original question was whether or not a law existed which specifically discriminated against non-Jews.

I'm not denying there is not social discrimination in Israel. There most certainly is. Jew-stabbings don't help the situation any.

 

[Boston1]

Looks like Shusha nailed it.

But just for fun. What was Israel supposed to do, leave valuable land vacant in preference to an unknown owner who can't be located, and refuses to step forward or was declared persona non grata.

This is the nature of war, a war the Arab league started. They lost, what they lost included land.

So whats your point ?

Also I think its reasonable to retract any accusations of apartheid.

Apartheid is an institution enacted through no fault of those being subjugated to it. Restrictions like what the Arab Muslims of Israel are under exist entirely because of the Arab Muslims own actions. They required the restrictions to be enacted against them and only they can act to lift those restrictions by putting an end to the violence aggression towards the Israeli people.

 

[Shusha]

But just for fun. What was Israel supposed to do, leave valuable land vacant ...

Well, and what would one expect a sovereign Palestine to do with vacant land -- just let people squat on it?

 

[docmauser1]

Israeli Jews are starting to see the light. It's as if I wrote the article. LOLread more: Call apartheid in Israel by its name - Opinion

Did our honorable montelatici actually pay to read that drivel?! hehe

 

[Boston1]

Israeli Jews are starting to see the light. It's as if I wrote the article. LOLread more: Call apartheid in Israel by its name - Opinion

Did our honorable montelatici actually pay to read that drivel?! hehe

Monty only reads drivel

he's another that would falsely equate the SA policy of apartheid and the Israeli need to enforce restrictions on a violent population.