California as a warning for America

[Harry Dresden]

The one thing I will say about Arnold, is that he was brought in via a recall. That in itself is a big call, and if you are going to do that to somebody else, you better have the answers.

i keep on saying this..... Arnold was a great Governor.....before he got elected.....what he was talking about which got him there was very true.....6 months in, he folded like a piece of Oragami....and now he fits in pretty nice with the legislature.....if he would have stuck to his guns things may not have gotten as bad as it is.....at least there would have been someone showing the droid part of the populace how bad the legislature is....but then again i doubt if they would have seen it.....it would still be Arnolds fault....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Says the guy who now alleges she has a flat chest but wouldn't have a clue about that. What's wrong with you, Harry? Usually you're above little hissy fits.

when i see my state being ruined by people like Rinata i get pissed off Maggie....if she was bad mouthing these basterds i would have at least been thinking she is not one of those who keeps voting them in.....instead she bad mouths Arnold,its ALL his fault of course, and she defends the Legislature,they have no part in the States demize,its all Arnold.....there was another thread a few months back Maggie, where she was was going pretty good defending Pelosi as being one of the best people in Congress and how lucky we all are to have her......wanna get me going....tell me how wonderful Pelosi is,and all the wonderful things she has done for us....Rinata can kiss my ass.....

You are a liar, straight up. I have never once defended Pelosi, let alone say what you have accused me of saying. One of the best people in Congress, we are lucky to have her, she's wonderful, she's done wonderful things for us???? LIAR!!!!

I'll take criticism any day of the week, but you people don't play fair. You all lie constantly. Nobody believes that I said that, I'm sure. It doesn't even sound like me. I think you're the biggest liar on here. You just won the prize. Congratulations.

its amazing how when confronted Pelosi's minions scatter like the Roaches they are....

 

[Wry Catcher]

FACTS:
Reagan, 1/67 - 1/75; Republican.
Brown, 1/75 - 1/83; Democrat.
Deukmejian, 1/83 - 1/91; Republican.
Wilson, 1/91 - 1/99; Republican.
Davis, 1/99 - 11/2003; Democrat
Arnold, 11/2003 - current; Republican

During these years the Democrats have had a majority in both house of the legislature, and during this time - as a result of prop. 13 - the budget process has been held hostage by the minority party.

FACT: In 1933 California voters approved a Constitutional Amendment requiring a 2/3 vote
for budgets and in 1978 - via prop 13 - extended the supermajority rule to tax increases.

Opinion: My wife and I are not 'conservatives', but, we pay our bills each month, do not pay any late fees or interest on any loans except our home mortgage (and our home is worth considerable more than what we paid, and we have not borrowed on our equity).
That said, the Republican Governors of California have failed to control spending (remember, they have the line item veto in California); and, the Republican's in the state senate and assembly have stone-walled any effort to increase fees or taxes to pay off the debt.
Though the 'R's' claim to be fiscally responsible, the result of their ideological rigidity are apparent for all to see: lower bond ratings, excessive interests on loans, IOU's instead of paychecks, overcroweded freeways, prisons, schools and a crumbling infrastructure.
The 'conservative' movement, which exploded under Gov. Reagan and Jarvis and Gann has created a Kafkaish world wherein common sense is rare if not extinct and cliches have replaced debate.
All one needs to do in Californai is listen to the radio rhetoric of Meg Whitman, the newest Republican who wants to be Governor and is campaigning on populist themes - cut taxes, cut spending and improve the schools.

 

[Meister]

FACTS:
Reagan, 1/67 - 1/75; Republican.
Brown, 1/75 - 1/83; Democrat.
Deukmejian, 1/83 - 1/91; Republican.
Wilson, 1/91 - 1/99; Republican.
Davis, 1/99 - 11/2003; Democrat
Arnold, 11/2003 - current; Republican

During these years the Democrats have had a majority in both house of the legislature, and during this time - as a result of prop. 13 - the budget process has been held hostage by the minority party.

FACT: In 1933 California voters approved a Constitutional Amendment requiring a 2/3 vote
for budgets and in 1978 - via prop 13 - extended the supermajority rule to tax increases.

Opinion: My wife and I are not 'conservatives', but, we pay our bills each month, do not pay any late fees or interest on any loans except our home mortgage (and our home is worth considerable more than what we paid, and we have not borrowed on our equity).
That said, the Republican Governors of California have failed to control spending (remember, they have the line item veto in California); and, the Republican's in the state senate and assembly have stone-walled any effort to increase fees or taxes to pay off the debt.
Though the 'R's' claim to be fiscally responsible, the result of their ideological rigidity are apparent for all to see: lower bond ratings, excessive interests on loans, IOU's instead of paychecks, overcroweded freeways, prisons, schools and a crumbling infrastructure.
The 'conservative' movement, which exploded under Gov. Reagan and Jarvis and Gann has created a Kafkaish world wherein common sense is rare if not extinct and cliches have replaced debate.
All one needs to do in Californai is listen to the radio rhetoric of Meg Whitman, the newest Republican who wants to be Governor and is campaigning on populist themes - cut taxes, cut spending and improve the schools.

What's California's debt today?
Who has a majority in the House and Senate today in California?
Who has a RINO as gov.?
It's those pesky republicans that just can't stop all this spending, the dems would but....just can't control the right side can they?
I see....carry on wry.

 

[Meister]

Says the guy who now alleges she has a flat chest but wouldn't have a clue about that. What's wrong with you, Harry? Usually you're above little hissy fits.

when i see my state being ruined by people like Rinata i get pissed off Maggie....if she was bad mouthing these basterds i would have at least been thinking she is not one of those who keeps voting them in.....instead she bad mouths Arnold,its ALL his fault of course, and she defends the Legislature,they have no part in the States demize,its all Arnold.....there was another thread a few months back Maggie, where she was was going pretty good defending Pelosi as being one of the best people in Congress and how lucky we all are to have her......wanna get me going....tell me how wonderful Pelosi is,and all the wonderful things she has done for us....Rinata can kiss my ass.....

You are a liar, straight up. I have never once defended Pelosi, let alone say what you have accused me of saying. One of the best people in Congress, we are lucky to have her, she's wonderful, she's done wonderful things for us???? LIAR!!!!

I'll take criticism any day of the week, but you people don't play fair. You all lie constantly. Nobody believes that I said that, I'm sure. It doesn't even sound like me. I think you're the biggest liar on here. You just won the prize. Congratulations.

Who's a liar? You have a lot of nerve.

 

[Wry Catcher]

FACTS:
Reagan, 1/67 - 1/75; Republican.
Brown, 1/75 - 1/83; Democrat.
Deukmejian, 1/83 - 1/91; Republican.
Wilson, 1/91 - 1/99; Republican.
Davis, 1/99 - 11/2003; Democrat
Arnold, 11/2003 - current; Republican

During these years the Democrats have had a majority in both house of the legislature, and during this time - as a result of prop. 13 - the budget process has been held hostage by the minority party.

FACT: In 1933 California voters approved a Constitutional Amendment requiring a 2/3 vote
for budgets and in 1978 - via prop 13 - extended the supermajority rule to tax increases.

Opinion: My wife and I are not 'conservatives', but, we pay our bills each month, do not pay any late fees or interest on any loans except our home mortgage (and our home is worth considerable more than what we paid, and we have not borrowed on our equity).
That said, the Republican Governors of California have failed to control spending (remember, they have the line item veto in California); and, the Republican's in the state senate and assembly have stone-walled any effort to increase fees or taxes to pay off the debt.
Though the 'R's' claim to be fiscally responsible, the result of their ideological rigidity are apparent for all to see: lower bond ratings, excessive interests on loans, IOU's instead of paychecks, overcroweded freeways, prisons, schools and a crumbling infrastructure.
The 'conservative' movement, which exploded under Gov. Reagan and Jarvis and Gann has created a Kafkaish world wherein common sense is rare if not extinct and cliches have replaced debate.
All one needs to do in Californai is listen to the radio rhetoric of Meg Whitman, the newest Republican who wants to be Governor and is campaigning on populist themes - cut taxes, cut spending and improve the schools.

What's California's debt today?
Who has a majority in the House and Senate today in California?
Who has a RINO as gov.?
It's those pesky republicans that just can't stop all this spending, the dems would but....just can't control the right side can they?
I see....carry on wry.

Do you enjoy posting foolish idiotgrams? I'd debate this issue, but (and honestly) I find you both insipid and dull (as in not too bright).

 

[Wry Catcher]

The conservative minority in California has created a wonderland, a wonderland not concieved by Alice in a dream, but a nightmare created by the few and the greedy.
'Thinking' has been replaced by slogans and canards, oft repeated but never examined or proved; emotion (& hysteria) have replaced reason in essays and debate, questions are considered attacks and faith supercedes fact.
The conservative element on this message board is berift of ideas and relies on sarcasm and mean spirited ad hominem attacks, they reply to thoughtful opinons and valid inferences with bullying and censorhip and post idiotic non sequiturs pretending (or, even - gasp - believing) such words they post are substantive.

 

[WillowTree]

The conservative minority in California has created a wonderland, a wonderland not concieved by Alice in a dream, but a nightmare created by the few and the greedy.
'Thinking' has been replaced by slogans and canards, oft repeated but never examined or proved; emotion (& hysteria) have replaced reason in essays and debate, questions are considered attacks and faith supercedes fact.
The conservative element on this message board is berift of ideas and relies on sarcasm and mean spirited ad hominem attacks, they reply to thoughtful opinons and valid inferences with bullying and censorhip and post idiotic non sequiturs pretending (or, even - gasp - believing) such words they post are substantive.

you memorize MSNBC don't you?


I don't believe you and I don't believe MSNBC either! but Kerry on.

 

[Meister]

The conservative minority in California has created a wonderland, a wonderland not concieved by Alice in a dream, but a nightmare created by the few and the greedy.
'Thinking' has been replaced by slogans and canards, oft repeated but never examined or proved; emotion (& hysteria) have replaced reason in essays and debate, questions are considered attacks and faith supercedes fact.
The conservative element on this message board is berift of ideas and relies on sarcasm and mean spirited ad hominem attacks, they reply to thoughtful opinons and valid inferences with bullying and censorhip and post idiotic non sequiturs pretending (or, even - gasp - believing) such words they post are substantive.

Wry first of all, I just like how you have to brag about yourself with your no debt, only mortgage mantra. You have said the same crap, over and over, it's old. So what??? You owe more money than I do....I just don't brag about it, except to you.
Second I have to laugh at it's the conservatives that have screwed up your state. Attack me, I get it, but it's just deflection on your part with the core of what I stated.
In the immortal words of Willow...kerry on.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The conservative minority in California has created a wonderland, a wonderland not concieved by Alice in a dream, but a nightmare created by the few and the greedy.
'Thinking' has been replaced by slogans and canards, oft repeated but never examined or proved; emotion (& hysteria) have replaced reason in essays and debate, questions are considered attacks and faith supercedes fact.
The conservative element on this message board is berift of ideas and relies on sarcasm and mean spirited ad hominem attacks, they reply to thoughtful opinons and valid inferences with bullying and censorhip and post idiotic non sequiturs pretending (or, even - gasp - believing) such words they post are substantive.

Wry first of all, I just like how you have to brag about yourself with your no debt, only mortgage mantra. You have said the same crap, over and over, it's old. So what??? You owe more money than I do....I just don't brag about it, except to you.
Second I have to laugh at it's the conservatives that have screwed up your state. Attack me, I get it, but it's just deflection on your part with the core of what I stated.
In the immortal words of Willow...kerry on.

My point is not to brag, my point is my wife and I are fiscally responsible, and, the conservatives in our state legislature say they are, but they are not.
I'm sorry you see my post as a personal attack, I don't think only you are insipid and dull, WT above, Ca. Girl, Dude - there are plenty who post idiotgrams, you're not alone.

 

[Meister]

The conservative minority in California has created a wonderland, a wonderland not concieved by Alice in a dream, but a nightmare created by the few and the greedy.
'Thinking' has been replaced by slogans and canards, oft repeated but never examined or proved; emotion (& hysteria) have replaced reason in essays and debate, questions are considered attacks and faith supercedes fact.
The conservative element on this message board is berift of ideas and relies on sarcasm and mean spirited ad hominem attacks, they reply to thoughtful opinons and valid inferences with bullying and censorhip and post idiotic non sequiturs pretending (or, even - gasp - believing) such words they post are substantive.

Wry first of all, I just like how you have to brag about yourself with your no debt, only mortgage mantra. You have said the same crap, over and over, it's old. So what??? You owe more money than I do....I just don't brag about it, except to you.
Second I have to laugh at it's the conservatives that have screwed up your state. Attack me, I get it, but it's just deflection on your part with the core of what I stated.
In the immortal words of Willow...kerry on.

My point is not to brag, my point is my wife and I are fiscally responsible, and, the conservatives in our state legislature say they are, but they are not.
I'm sorry you see my post as a personal attack, I don't think only you are insipid and dull, WT above, Ca. Girl, Dude - there are plenty who post idiotgrams, you're not alone.

And you are a blind idiot, wry. There are a lot of fiscallly responsible people in Ca. and on this board....quit your damn bragging....and that's what your doing.
You hammer on the conservatives of your once great state.....but seem to skip over the majority of politicians in your state.....that is what makes you a blind idiot.
Insipid, dull....your talking about yourself, but you forgot goofball.

 

[bodecea]

California has had fiscal troubles before, as have other states. We will get thru this...the quitters will quit (and hopefully leave), the whiners will whine (and hopefully leave), and those who live outside our state and want to act like they know all about us will hopefully stay away....good.

I am very optimistic about this state. We will rebound.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Wry first of all, I just like how you have to brag about yourself with your no debt, only mortgage mantra. You have said the same crap, over and over, it's old. So what??? You owe more money than I do....I just don't brag about it, except to you.
Second I have to laugh at it's the conservatives that have screwed up your state. Attack me, I get it, but it's just deflection on your part with the core of what I stated.
In the immortal words of Willow...kerry on.

My point is not to brag, my point is my wife and I are fiscally responsible, and, the conservatives in our state legislature say they are, but they are not.
I'm sorry you see my post as a personal attack, I don't think only you are insipid and dull, WT above, Ca. Girl, Dude - there are plenty who post idi otgrams, you're not alone.

And you are a blind idiot, wry. There are a lot of fiscallly responsible people in Ca. and on this board....quit your damn bragging....and that's what your doing.
You hammer on the conservatives of your once great state.....but seem to skip over the majority of politicians in your state.....that is what makes you a blind idiot.
Insipid, dull....your talking about yourself, but you forgot goofball.

none are so blind as those who will not see, meister. Your use of the word "idiot" is telling, clearly I'm not an idiot, but my opinions upset you so, you add evidence to the validity of my inference (my opinion) of you and the others.
You have faith in cliches, believe the propaganda, and form your opinions on the slogans and unproved axioms of modern conservatives. By posting them with such anger, I find you insipid, and by not examing your beliefs, I surmise you are dull (of mind) or maybe - and hopefully - simply intellectually lazy.

 

[MaggieMae]

oh yea the spots been hit....she is probably throwing things at her old man....thinking its me or meister....

Says the guy who now alleges she has a flat chest but wouldn't have a clue about that. What's wrong with you, Harry? Usually you're above little hissy fits.

when i see my state being ruined by people like Rinata i get pissed off Maggie....if she was bad mouthing these basterds i would have at least been thinking she is not one of those who keeps voting them in.....instead she bad mouths Arnold,its ALL his fault of course, and she defends the Legislature,they have no part in the States demize,its all Arnold.....there was another thread a few months back Maggie, where she was was going pretty good defending Pelosi as being one of the best people in Congress and how lucky we all are to have her......wanna get me going....tell me how wonderful Pelosi is,and all the wonderful things she has done for us....Rinata can kiss my ass.....

Okay, you're mad. I get that. And Rinata seems farther left than I am because I think Pelosi has damaged the Democratic Party almost beyond repair. She's as bad as Tom DeLay (the de facto House Republican leader). They both took party-first politics to the extreme and I believe have created more than any others the current animosity in Washington resulting in gridlock. But Rinata still has a right to her opinion.

I think I said earlier that I haven't followed Calfornia's fiscal debacles closely, but I do remember that Schwartzeneger was voted in as the "conservative" flipside of Pete Wilson, and Arnie turned out to be even worse. Seems that happens a lot. People DO want change, but they tend to vote their anger and it therefore becomes a be-careful-what-you-wish-for scenario. In CA's case, I can remember being shocked that someone with little if any political experience (other than his wife's influence, which I can remember posting warnings to Republicans about) was actually elected as Governor of the biggest state in the union.

 

[Meister]

My point is not to brag, my point is my wife and I are fiscally responsible, and, the conservatives in our state legislature say they are, but they are not.
I'm sorry you see my post as a personal attack, I don't think only you are insipid and dull, WT above, Ca. Girl, Dude - there are plenty who post idi otgrams, you're not alone.

And you are a blind idiot, wry. There are a lot of fiscallly responsible people in Ca. and on this board....quit your damn bragging....and that's what your doing.
You hammer on the conservatives of your once great state.....but seem to skip over the majority of politicians in your state.....that is what makes you a blind idiot.
Insipid, dull....your talking about yourself, but you forgot goofball.

none are so blind as those who will not see, meister. Your use of the word "idiot" is telling, clearly I'm not an idiot, but my opinions upset you so, you add evidence to the validity of my inference (my opinion) of you and the others.
You have faith in cliches, believe the propaganda, and form your opinions on the slogans and unproved axioms of modern conservatives. By posting them with such anger, I find you insipid, and by not examing your beliefs, I surmise you are dull (of mind) or maybe - and hopefully - simply intellectually lazy.

WOW!!! coming from you...just wow. I at least, can hammer on the republicans for their shortcomings, you on the other hand, are too blind to be able to do the same for your democrats...hence the goofball remark. I have to laugh how you deflect and spin wry.
Trust me me...you aren't that smart, wry. Your opinion is no more than a garden variety from the wing nut kool-aid drinkers. Go get your marching orders from the left, wry, that's what you do best. Talk about insipid and dull, sheesh

 

[MaggieMae]

Thinking about it, you negged me yesterday, and I didn't retaliate. What's up with you?

her did?


so have we reached a conclusion.. Is all well in good in California or was the writer of the article correct?? which..

Rep.McClintok is absolutely right Willow.....and he was the only Candidate talking about this....but the Droids in California dont want to hear about cutting Entitlement programs for the Illegals and those who needed the help at one time and 20 years later they are still getting help,the State Unions who have some pretty dam good Contracts and a gaggle of others to numerous to list....AND a thing called.... STOP SPENDING!!!! ....they DONT like those two words....Arnolds State of the State yesterday.....no money, but he is talking about more programs.....THAT COST MONEY.....i dont know what can be said anymore....you either vote for someone new or the same people, who's only idea to fix a problem, is to throw more money at it.....and we all know what that means.....when we go down the tubes,dont reach for us.....cause we will drag you down with us.....we are two heavy with BullShit......

Why did Californians vote against spending cuts last May?

California voters rejected five of the six proposed budget measures that were to prevent what some are calling a "financial armageddon."

Read more at Suite101: California Votes Against 5 of 6 Budget Measures: Gov. Schwarzenegger Warns of Severe Budget cuts in the Near Future California Votes Against 5 of 6 Budget Measures: Gov. Schwarzenegger Warns of Severe Budget cuts in the Near Future

 

[Meister]

her did?


so have we reached a conclusion.. Is all well in good in California or was the writer of the article correct?? which..

Rep.McClintok is absolutely right Willow.....and he was the only Candidate talking about this....but the Droids in California dont want to hear about cutting Entitlement programs for the Illegals and those who needed the help at one time and 20 years later they are still getting help,the State Unions who have some pretty dam good Contracts and a gaggle of others to numerous to list....AND a thing called.... STOP SPENDING!!!! ....they DONT like those two words....Arnolds State of the State yesterday.....no money, but he is talking about more programs.....THAT COST MONEY.....i dont know what can be said anymore....you either vote for someone new or the same people, who's only idea to fix a problem, is to throw more money at it.....and we all know what that means.....when we go down the tubes,dont reach for us.....cause we will drag you down with us.....we are two heavy with BullShit......

Why did Californians vote against spending cuts last May?

California voters rejected five of the six proposed budget measures that were to prevent what some are calling a "financial armageddon."

Read more at Suite101: California Votes Against 5 of 6 Budget Measures: Gov. Schwarzenegger Warns of Severe Budget cuts in the Near Future California Votes Against 5 of 6 Budget Measures: Gov. Schwarzenegger Warns of Severe Budget cuts in the Near Future

It is unbelievable, Maggie. I do believe it's the money that was poured in by special interests groups for television spots. Say it enough and they will believe.

 

[Wry Catcher]

And you are a blind idiot, wry. There are a lot of fiscallly responsible people in Ca. and on this board....quit your damn bragging....and that's what your doing.
You hammer on the conservatives of your once great state.....but seem to skip over the majority of politicians in your state.....that is what makes you a blind idiot.
Insipid, dull....your talking about yourself, but you forgot goofball.

none are so blind as those who will not see, meister. Your use of the word "idiot" is telling, clearly I'm not an idiot, but my opinions upset you so, you add evidence to the validity of my inference (my opinion) of you and the others.
You have faith in cliches, believe the propaganda, and form your opinions on the slogans and unproved axioms of modern conservatives. By posting them with such anger, I find you insipid, and by not examing your beliefs, I surmise you are dull (of mind) or maybe - and hopefully - simply intellectually lazy.

WOW!!! coming from you...just wow. I at least, can hammer on the republicans for their shortcomings, you on the other hand, are too blind to be able to do the same for your democrats...hence the goofball remark. I have to laugh how you deflect and spin wry.
Trust me me...you aren't that smart, wry. Your opinion is no more than a garden variety from the wing nut kool-aid drinkers. Go get your marching orders from the left, wry, that's what you do best. Talk about insipid and dull, sheesh

More cliches and untruths, you ought to be ashamed. I said nothing about the Democrats or suggested support for left wing politics - I point out the hypocrisy of the conservative movement and how you, and they, continue the bull shit. I noted all the Republican Gov's since Reagan, and each opposed taxes and never used the line item veto to balance a budget.
You don't live in California, and simply repeat the bull shit. I spent 32 years working in local government, much of that as a manager trying to do more with less after prop. 13. I have real life experience, in law enforcement, budgets and government in general, and I have a great disdain for elected officials. Almost as much as I do for the self righteous conservatives who parrot propaganda and seems to know diddly shit about real issues and real life.

 

[MaggieMae]

The conservative minority in California has created a wonderland, a wonderland not concieved by Alice in a dream, but a nightmare created by the few and the greedy.
'Thinking' has been replaced by slogans and canards, oft repeated but never examined or proved; emotion (& hysteria) have replaced reason in essays and debate, questions are considered attacks and faith supercedes fact.
The conservative element on this message board is berift of ideas and relies on sarcasm and mean spirited ad hominem attacks, they reply to thoughtful opinons and valid inferences with bullying and censorhip and post idiotic non sequiturs pretending (or, even - gasp - believing) such words they post are substantive.

You're correct. Posting on this board has become extremely frustrating for those very reasons. It's the same people posting the same junk. Occasionally a truly intelligent conservative will arrive on the scene, but they don't seem to last long. Wonder why?

I'm actually beginning to hope that conservatives do become the majority. I'd be truly intereseted in how they will put some real muscle to our myriad problems rather than, as you say, just using their usual empty mantras to rev up their base.

 

[MaggieMae]

Rep.McClintok is absolutely right Willow.....and he was the only Candidate talking about this....but the Droids in California dont want to hear about cutting Entitlement programs for the Illegals and those who needed the help at one time and 20 years later they are still getting help,the State Unions who have some pretty dam good Contracts and a gaggle of others to numerous to list....AND a thing called.... STOP SPENDING!!!! ....they DONT like those two words....Arnolds State of the State yesterday.....no money, but he is talking about more programs.....THAT COST MONEY.....i dont know what can be said anymore....you either vote for someone new or the same people, who's only idea to fix a problem, is to throw more money at it.....and we all know what that means.....when we go down the tubes,dont reach for us.....cause we will drag you down with us.....we are two heavy with BullShit......

Why did Californians vote against spending cuts last May?

California voters rejected five of the six proposed budget measures that were to prevent what some are calling a "financial armageddon."

Read more at Suite101: California Votes Against 5 of 6 Budget Measures: Gov. Schwarzenegger Warns of Severe Budget cuts in the Near Future California Votes Against 5 of 6 Budget Measures: Gov. Schwarzenegger Warns of Severe Budget cuts in the Near Future

It is unbelievable, Maggie. I do believe it's the money that was poured in by special interests groups for television spots. Say it enough and they will believe.

Thems telling words there, Maestro. Same thing has happened over the health care bill, with over $3,000,000 (that can be found) put into advertising against its passage in any form whatsoever. But I don't want to derail the thread, so you don't need to respond.