Bush: "I had to become a Socialist to save the country"

[sealybobo]

Sealy I sympathize with a lot of what the left desires, but until the left sheds their overall sense of entitlement, I'll never stand in their corner.

This IS an every man for himself society. The CHOICE to help is always there, but no one must be FORCED to, in any way.

It puts hair on your chest.

Oh, and I don't support NAFTA or any of the other FTA's. That isn't real free trade, its cronyism.

Get over it. You are forced to pay taxes and you don't pick and choose what those taxes go towards. We elect officials and they decide, and clearly they decide to help the less fortune with your tax dollars, along with spending on the military and building up our infrastructure.

So maybe when Bush & the GOP were in charge, our society was a little bit more Every Man For Himself than I would like, but that time has past, thank God. So the every man for himself era is over. You can stand alone, which you clearly prefer. And when/if you fall, we'll catch you too. Not because you are entitled to it, but because that's one of the perks living in America. Another perk is that you can get filthy rich living here. And if you do get so lucky, expect to pay more in taxes that will go to helping people less fortunate. You can vote against this kind of country in 2010 and every other election, but I think it'll be a long time before people who think like you ever run things again. For now you'll just have to hope the lobbyists you send to Washington are successful in corrupting the Dems like they were with the GOP.

And by the way, you guys can't lose. Free trade will never be free enough for you. So when free trade goes wrong, you'll just say it wasn't free enough. I have a libertarian friend who said the GOP didn't deregulate anything. They regulated the regulations by deregulating the regulations. There should be no regulations period.

Entitlements. When I hear/see people using these words, I tend to want to punch them in the face. Give me some examples of entitlements. What free hand outs do I want to be offered that you find unacceptable. Be specific. Because "my sense of entitlement" is a bullshit right wing talking point/buzz word and I think you are overusing it.

No we don't live in a every man for himself society. We could have such a long conversation about why that is not what America is all about but it would completely go over your head. Plus, it takes a compassionate heart and a liberal/open mind to get it, so I won't bother. I only wish you and the rest of your kind would fall flat on your faces so we could see what you are really made of. Start out even with the guys making less than you and see if you do better. Typically the people who talk like you are trying to hold on to what they have. They don't want the playing field to be even. Talk about entitlement.

One great example is how most/a lot of people find their job. A buddy or relative or neighbor or whoever gets you a job and you act like anyone could do it. In other words, you forget that without that friend, you would never have gotten that job. Or you neglect the fact that your parents paid for your college. Everyone has stories like this, even you. You'll say that you did it all on your own but then that would be a lie. You just don't realize when/how/where/from who you got help.

So our government helps people who weren't as lucky as you. And they'll help you too if you ever need it. And don't cry if your whole life you never need that help. Many of us, including me, won't use it either. But what we also won't do is cry that others are using it. Don't be a selfish prick.

You're part of the "if I'm ok, then everyone else should be ok too"

 

[sealybobo]

What if I would rather just buy imported goods instead, because some are just flat out better quality than their american counterparts?

I won't play the better qiaulity debate game because that really has damned all to do with the debate.

Look at our current economy, Paul. Most of what is wrong with it has to do with FREE TRADE.

Fuck the market. The market is but one part of a nation.

That idiotic religion of mammon that you worship is destroying this nation.

Wake up

What a great point! The Free Market is only one part of our nation, yet guys like Paul are willing to trash every other part to protect the free market.

To hell with the middle class and small mom and pop business' as long as the large corporations are doing swell.

Paul thinks the Free market is what made this country great.

They think the government is the enemy when it is the government that protects us from corporate greed. At least it is supposed to. Over the past 8 years, the government has been working for the corporations, not for we the people. And we are seeing how very dangerous that can be for democracy.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative belief in "free markets" is a bit like the Catholic Church's insistence that the Earth was at the center of the Solar System in the Twelfth Century. It's widely believed by those in power, those who challenge it are branded heretics and ridiculed, and it is wrong.

In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government.

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.

And, most important, the rules of the game of business are defined by government. Any sports fan can tell you that football, baseball, or hockey without rules and referees would be a mess. Similarly, business without rules won't work.

Which explains why conservative economics wiped out the middle class during the period from 1880 to 1932, and why, when Reagan again began applying conservative economics, the middle class again began to vanish in America in the 1980s - a process that has dramatically picked up steam under George W. Bush.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop corporations from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." This is, at best, destructive to national and international economies, and, at worst, destructive to democracy itself.

Markets are a creation of government, just as corporations exist only by authorization of government. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business.

If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

 

[editec]

I simply think that even though consumers are not as educated as the bankers are, they still ought to make sure they can fit a mortgage into their budget, even during the worst possible time they can imagine going through.

In other words, no working stiff should EVER buy a house. Because buying a house for most people is a leap of faith. Faith that they won't get too sick to work, faith that they won't lose their job, faith that the economy won't collapse around them.

What you expect of people is entirely unrealistic.

They should have at least been able to make the payment comfortably in the low interest range, and been able to at least MAKE a payment if it jumped a couple points higher.

Most of them presumed that after a few years of paying, they cold REFI into a fixed rate mortgage. Why did they presume that? Because that is how MOST people were doing it, and it had worked in the past.

I know this. I sold those mortgages twenty plu years back.

Believing the bank when they say it won't go higher is ridiculous. That is an offer that is just too good to be true. You know that old saying.

I know that you have a highly unrealistic sense of what working people seeking to own a home are facing. That is obvious given the advise you gave them above.

Also, they should have calculated how much they could afford should they possibly lose their job, also, should house values drop.

That's an absurd thing to suggest. of course. Not one working person in a hundred has the financial resources to buy a house assuming that they'll be able to pay for it if they lose their jobs.

If they had that much money they would buy it outright.

Believing they'll rise to infinity was ignorant, and unacceptable. This is BASIC knowledge that any consumer should arm themselves with. It doesn't take a college education, or even participation in a course. It simply requires a little research. Having a down payment of at least 15% is wise, and a savings of a few extra months mortgage payments as well.

The wisdom of somebody who obviously hasn't every had to worry too much about making a living perhaps.

I mean, signing your life away on a 30 year mortgage is not something that should be taken lightly. If you as a borrower decide you can not meet these requirements, you simply should not be asking for a loan. You continue to rent until you position yourself accordingly.

AGreed. But they thought they could make those payments. And the experts agreed with them, too.

Why is that so much to ask?


Only because it's completely unrealistic, Paul.

That's how we USED to do things in this country, before credit was made as cheap as ever and people felt ENTITLED to own a home no matter what.

Poppycock. People have been taking the risk of buying a home since long before you were born.

And I'm going for a Bachelors Degree program in the Biomedical Engineering field. Basically, fixing and maintaining medical equipment.

Good choice. I'm sure you'll do well.

It's fairly clear to me that you think about social issues like most engineers do.

 

[del]

Good choice. I'm sure you'll do well.

It's fairly clear to me that you think about social issues like most engineers do.

still bitter about that a.b. in english?

 

[Paulie]

Sealy, I'm not exactly doing well these days.

We're hurting, actually. My line of work is going down the drain in this economy, and I still feel the same way.

No one owes me SHIT. It's up to me to change things. I'll be going back to school to seek a new profession, and it's not going to be easy on my family. I'm raising two kids who really can't afford for me to be losing out on income while I go to school, but in the end it will be worth it.

I'll take care of myself and my own.

Maybe instead of worrying about what show is on tonight, citizens should be demanding the changes they want from congress. That would be a great start.

Maybe when I start to see people care enough to get off their fat fucking asses, I might think differently. In the end though, we're all really just a bunch of selfish assholes. Every single one of us. You're fooling yourself if you think any different.

 

[sealybobo]

No one owes me SHIT. It's up to me to change things. I'll be going back to school to seek a new profession, and it's not going to be easy on my family. I'm raising two kids who really can't afford for me to be losing out on income while I go to school, but in the end it will be worth it.

I'll take care of myself and my own.

Maybe instead of worrying about what show is on tonight, citizens should be demanding the changes they want from congress. That would be a great start.

Maybe when I start to see people care enough to get off their fat fucking asses, I might think differently. In the end though, we're all really just a bunch of selfish assholes. Every single one of us. You're fooling yourself if you think any different.

No you won't Paul. Not if the government is working against you. Which it has been for the last 8 years. Not if you continue to advocate for a small noble elite class to rule over us, the working poor. Give them unheard of power/freedom/authority. They already own our politicians. You want to give them free reign?

I think you Corporatists don't realize what you are saying. You don't realize that you will ultimately/eventually fall into the working poor category. Shit, 8 years of it and you still argue for them? You are like the dog that gets beat/abused by his master. The humaine society comes to save you and you bite at them and defend your abuser. It's really insane!

What you seem incapable of understanding is that the American way of life is being attacked. The middle class is under attack. Fine if you can't admit it was the Republicans. Fine if you want THE ENTIRE government to share responsibility for what is going on. We voted out the GOP because they were inefficient. And how did they convince you to vote for them again? They told you that government is the problem and not the solution. They convinced you that even though 8 years of government turning a blind eye caused this financial mess, they convinced you that what we need is even MORE deregulations.

We voted in the Democrats to fix the problem of jobs going overseas. It's not in my control whether or not manufacturing continues to go oveseas. That's what my government does for me. You don't want them to stop manufacturing from going overseas? Fine, you are an idiot then.

But to me, that's why I pay taxes. For my government to protect me from corporations and greedy rich people who think they are worth any more than 1 vote thru their lobbyists and special interests.

And the rich got you arguing for them. Meanwhile you are hurting. OMG that's rich!

So Paul, you and I will take care of ourselves, but trust me Paul, you are not the problem. You are not responsible for what's going on with your family. Just like it's not the fault of the millions of people just like you.

If you grew up in Somalia, I would not blame you for being a murderer. That government has lost control. It is corrupt. It is proof that the government is MUCH more than what you think it is. It is all important. If not, go to Somalia with all of your brains and know how and get back to me on how well you do.

Governments role is to provide its citizens with financial stability. Without it, society will become more violent. We will rob and steal and sell drugs. Yes Paul, under Libertarian/GOP rule, people will take care of themselves, by any means necessary.

The Government is there to do a lot more than you think. Another thing it does is protect people like you from yourselves.

 

[sealybobo]

Sealy, I'm not exactly doing well these days.

We're hurting, actually. My line of work is going down the drain in this economy, and I still feel the same way.

No one owes me SHIT. It's up to me to change things. I'll be going back to school to seek a new profession, and it's not going to be easy on my family. I'm raising two kids who really can't afford for me to be losing out on income while I go to school, but in the end it will be worth it.

I'll take care of myself and my own.

Maybe instead of worrying about what show is on tonight, citizens should be demanding the changes they want from congress. That would be a great start.

Maybe when I start to see people care enough to get off their fat fucking asses, I might think differently. In the end though, we're all really just a bunch of selfish assholes. Every single one of us. You're fooling yourself if you think any different.

And Paul, in general, I agree with you. People do need to do the things you are saying. We'd all be better off if the fat lazy asses who sponge off society would just disappear. No argument there. And screw that 30 year old guy who says he was abused as a kid and didn't get a fair start in life. Or the mother of 4 who's expecting a 5th and she's been on welfare her whole life. Screw that! I get the anger.

But YOU, me and millions more? Screw all of us? We're all to blame?

But what the RIGHT does in this case is fall back on their argument that we are turning into a global economy and there is nothing that can stop it.

Do you buy that? I don't. Every other country protects certain industries that are vital to their economies and national security. Only USA does not. Remember they tried to give a Boeing contract to Air Bus? Then Boeing employees made a big deal out of it and they won the contract back. Or some of it. So even that's going overseas.

And even if there is nothing that we can do about it, the politicians can enforce tariffs or raise minimum wage. They can adjust the interest rates. They can eliminate taxes. They can socialize healthcare and oil. They can do a lot to make sure we maintain a decent standard of living. Or they can hurt us. Or they can do nothing.

The people you are listening to are convincing you that it's better the government does nothing while corporations lower our standard of living. Why not? It'll increase their profits. FUCK THEIR PROFITS.

You are right Paul. We are all greedy. That includes the corporations. That's why we have a government Paul! There is another reason we have government.

 

[Paulie]

Of COURSE I'm responsible, Sealy. I could have gone right to college out of high school and picked a career that is in demand through all economic times. There are many. Many people are doing BETTER during this recession than during normal times.

I have that kind of knowledge and maturity now, that I didn't have at that point in my life. I tried many things along the way, including military service. So far, The best thing I have going for myself is I can do anything with my hands. I can build anything, fix anything, you name it. And if I can't, I can learn as quick as anyone. I'm capable of a lot of things I didn't realize I was capable of when I was younger and stupider.

I don't have any regrets, and I realize that I still have an opportunity to start over. THAT'S what I love about this country. I can sit back and blame the system, or I can use the system to my advantage while I try and change it in my free time. I spent the better part of my son's first year of life volunteering to campaign for a presidential candidate and missed out on a lot. I'm ok with that, because I did my part politically, and now I'm going to spend some time bettering my future.

These are all things that make America unique. I don't favor ANY class controlling things, by the way. I'm not sure where you got that idea. That flies in the very face of libertarianism.

Our lives are what we make of them, and we have the unique advantage of having complete control over how our government works for us. Sadly though, we don't use it very much, so the ones with the best means of doing so, took over and used the system for themselves. We could very easily change that, but we refuse to try hard enough.

It obviously remains to be seen what's in store for us politically, but I suspect it will continue to be detrimental to us as always. We didn't change anything this year. We did what we always do. We sat back on our fat asses and let the media herd us along to our destination. The system counts on that. That's how it flourishes.

We gave this country away a long time ago. We just rent it now, from those elites you think I support.

I'm not going to complain about it and demand I get treated as well as my neighbor. I'm simply going to exercise the freedom I still have.

 

[Paulie]

I may not agree with imposing tariffs, but if enough citizens that supported them used their power in numbers to make congress work in their interests and actually get it done, I'd applaud the effort.

But we don't. We bitch about it, and then turn the TV on. I'd be PROUD of the left, for instance, if they used their numbers to ACT instead of BITCH. I would simply do my part to try and rally support to get it changed, that's all. That's what this country is all about, we can make our OWN changes. Instead, we sit back and hope our government makes them FOR us. That's ridiculous. We were given the power to control the govenrment for a REASON, so that the government doesn't run amok. Government's will inevitably run amok if allowed the opportunity, and that's what we've been witnessing for the better part of 100 years, perhaps longer. ESPECIALLY since the TV was invented.

 

[Agnapostate]

Trade barriers result in counter trade barriers, and the end result is diminishing market size. This hurts infant industries.

I believe that if you offer something viable, the market will eventually come to you.

Isn't this a subtle reversion back to the comparative advantage argument? Do you deny that trade liberalization could be used for the effect of manufacturing dependency among poorer nations that are inhibited from developing viable manufacturing sectors of their own? It's fine to disagree, of course, but could you at least take a brief glance at Kicking Away the Ladder?

 

[Paulie]

Isn't this a subtle reversion back to the comparative advantage argument? Do you deny that trade liberalization could be used for the effect of manufacturing dependency among poorer nations that are inhibited from developing viable manufacturing sectors of their own? It's fine to disagree, of course, but could you at least take a brief glance at Kicking Away the Ladder?

I have to go pick up the rug rats, but I promise I'll read that and get back to you with my thoughts on it.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Just wow....





Bush says sacrificed free-market principles to save economy - Yahoo! News


So, Bush agrees with FDR. Under regulated, unfettered capitalism can't be trusted, and government intervention is needed.

LOL... GW blows it out his fascist ass and this tool wants to use his most egregious error as an illustration that FDR's failures were somehow less erroneous.

ROFLMNAO... Leftists...