Bringing murders of Flotilla to justice

[CMike]

No because they are Arab settlers in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs that are full citizens.

 

[rhodescholar]

They were not murdered dumb ass. A State enforcing a legal blockade is not committing murder when its troops fire on assailants attacking said military while trying to run said blockade. Keep proving just how stupid you are.

Thanks for Georgephillip for the link:

No islamic scumbag, HERE are the facts:

Eric Posner: The Gaza Blockade and International Law - WSJ.com

The Gaza Blockade and International Law
Israel's position is reasonable and backed by precedent.

By ERIC POSNER

Israel's raid on a fleet of activists bound for the Gaza Strip has led to wild accusations of illegality. But the international law applicable to the blockade eludes the grasp of those in search of easy answers.

The most serious charge is that by seizing control of the flotilla, Israel violated the freedom of ships to travel on the high seas. The basic law here is that states have jurisdiction over a 12-mile territorial sea and can take enforcement actions in an additional 12-mile contiguous zone, according to the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention (which Israel has not ratified, but which is generally regarded as reflecting customary international law). Outside that area, foreign ships can sail unmolested.

But there are exceptions. Longstanding customary international law permits states to enforce publicly announced blockades on the high seas. The Gaza blockade was known to all, and certainly to those who launched the ships for the very purpose of breaking it. The real question is whether the Israeli blockade is lawful. Blockades certainly are during times of war or armed conflict. The U.S.-led coalition imposed a blockade on Iraq during the first Gulf War.

The catch here is the meaning of "armed conflict." Traditionally, armed conflict can take place only between sovereign states. If Gaza were clearly a sovereign state, then Israel would be at war with Gaza and the blockade would be lawful. If, however, Gaza were just a part of Israel, Israel would have the right to control its borders— but not by intercepting foreign ships outside its 12-mile territorial sea or contiguous zone.

Gaza is not a sovereign state (although it has its own government, controlled by Hamas) and is not a part of Israel or of any other state. Its status is ambiguous, and so too is the nature of the armed conflict between Israel and Hamas. Thus there is no clear answer to the question whether the blockade is lawful.

However, the traditional idea of armed conflict involving only sovereign states has long given way to a looser definition that includes some conflicts between states and nonstate actors. The international rules governing blockades attempt to balance belligerents' interest in security and other countries' economic interests in shipping. During war, security interests prevail.

War-like conditions certainly exist between Israel and Hamas. And because Israel intercepts only self-identified blockade runners, its actions have little impact on neutral shipping. This balance is reflected in the traditional privilege of states to capture foreign pirates on the high seas.

So Israel's legal position is reasonable, and it has precedent. During the U.S. Civil War, the Union claimed to blockade the Confederacy while at the same time maintaining that the Confederacy was not a sovereign state but an agent of insurrection.

When the Union navy seized ships trying to run the blockade, their owners argued that a country cannot interfere with shipping on the high seas except during war, and one cannot be at war except with another sovereign state. The U.S. Supreme Court approved the captures in an ambiguous opinion that held that an armed conflict existed, even though one side was not a sovereign state. The opinion suggests a certain latitude for countries to use blockades against internal as well as external enemies.

Human Rights Watch argues that a blockade to strike at a terrorist organization constitutes a collective penalty against a civilian population, in violation of Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention. This argument won't stand up. Blockades and other forms of economic sanction are permitted in international law, which necessarily means that civilians will suffer through no fault of their own.

Most attention has focused on the question whether Israeli commandos used excessive force while taking control of one of the flotilla ships, which resulted in nine deaths. Human Rights Watch says that Israel's actions violated the 1990 United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials. However, that document is not international law; its principles are akin to a set of "best practices" for advising countries with poorly trained police forces. It is also vague and it would not apply to a military operation.

Military operations must respect the principle of proportionality, which is a fuzzy, "know-it-when-you-see-it" test. But one thing is clear. Ships that run blockades may be attacked and sunk under international law. If Israel had exercised that right, far more than nine people would have been killed.

Mr. Posner, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, is the author of "The Perils of Global Legalism" (University of Chicago Press, 2009).

 

[Nik]

No because they are Arab settlers in Israel. There are Israeli Arabs that are full citizens.

Wtf are you talking about?

Arab settlers in Israel?

 

[rhodescholar]

Make no doubt about this:
From now on, Israel is on its own in this region.
More I will not say, as I would then prophecy the sure-to-follow actions against Israel by Turkey.

After Turkey did this, it can go FUCK itself:

IDF: Mercenaries to blame for violence

IDF: Mercenaries to blame for violence
By YAAKOV KATZ
06/04/2010 05:06

Army says some 50 well-trained passengers were recruited in Turkey.

The IDF has identified one of the passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara , which navy commandos commandeered earlier this week, as the ringleader of a group of mercenaries who were recruited from a city in northwest Turkey, according to new details from the military’s ongoing investigation of the Gaza flotilla.

The IDF identified a group of about 50 men – of the 700 on board – who were well-trained and were stationed throughout the ship, mostly on the upper deck, where they laid an ambush for the IDF soldiers who rappelled onto the deck from helicopters.

The members of this violent group were not carrying identity cards or passports. Instead, each of them had an envelope in his pocket with about $10,000 in cash. The defense establishment suspects the funding for the mercenaries may have come from elements within the Turkish government.

According to sources within the defense establishment, one member of the group, who appears to have been the ringleader, traveled to the city of Bursa in northwest Turkey and allegedly recruited mercenaries for the flotilla there.

In videos from the Marmara released this week by the IDF, this group of men can be seen preparing to confront IDF commandos. The videos, taken by the ship’s security cameras, show the group of activists brandishing metal bars, slingshots, and other assorted weaponry.

The group was split up into smaller squads that were distributed throughout the deck and communicated with one another with handheld communication devices. The men wore bulletproof vests and gas masks.

One video clearly shows a member of the group throwing a stun grenade onto the IDF commando vessel that pulled up alongside the Marmara. Another video shows how groups of at least four or five men swarmed each commando that landed on the top deck, beating them with metal bars, and in one case throwing a soldier off the third deck.

Soldiers testified that in at least two instances their sidearms were taken from them, as were their helmets and vests. Two soldiers jumped off the ship into the water to save themselves from being lynched.

On Wednesday, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilna’i told a Knesset hearing that all nine men killed on the Marmara were “involved in the fighting.”

“There were no innocents among the dead,” Vilna’i said.

Meanwhile, Palestinian Media Watch reported Thursday that three of the four Turks killed on ship sought a martyr’s death.

PMW quoted from the official Palestinian Authority daily Al-Hayat al-Jadida:

“Three of the four Turks killed in the Israeli attack on the ‘Freedom Flotilla’ bound for the Gaza Strip wanted to die as martyrs, said their relatives and friends. The wife of one of them, Ali Haydar Bengi, told the Vatan daily: “He used to help the poor and the oppressed. For years, he wanted to go to Palestine. And he constantly prayed to Allah to grant him shahada (martyrdom).

“Ali worked at telephone repair shop in Diyarbakir, the largest city in southeastern Turkey. Sabir Ceylan, a friend of Ali, told the Milliyet newspaper: ‘Before embarking on this journey [to Gaza], he said he desired to become a martyr. He had a strong desire to die as a martyr.’

“Another Turkish victim was Ali Ekber Yaratilmis, a 55-year old pensioner. He was a father of five who lived in Ankara. Ali volunteered for the Turkish Aid and Human Rights Organization [IHH], which transfers aid to Gaza. A friend, Mehmet Faruk Cevher, told the Sabah daily that [Ali] ‘devoted his life to charity work, that’s why he went to Gaza. He always wanted to become a martyr.’

“The third victim was Ibrahim Bilgen, a 61-year old pensioner and father of six sons. He was a supporter of the Felicity Party, an Islamic movement in the southeastern city of Siirt, Anatolia news agency reported. His brother-in-law, Nuri Mergen, told the agency: He was an exemplary man and a truly good man. That’s why he was truly worthy of shahada (martyrdom). Allah granted him the death that he wished for.’”

Palestinian Media Watch reported in the last two days that participants on board were chanting Islamic battle cries and talking about their coming martyrdom during the days before the confrontation.

 

[Nik]

They were not murdered dumb ass. A State enforcing a legal blockade is not committing murder when its troops fire on assailants attacking said military while trying to run said blockade. Keep proving just how stupid you are.

Thanks for Georgephillip for the link:

No islamic scumbag, HERE are the facts:

Eric Posner: The Gaza Blockade and International Law - WSJ.com

The Gaza Blockade and International Law
Israel's position is reasonable and backed by precedent.

By ERIC POSNER

Israel's raid on a fleet of activists bound for the Gaza Strip has led to wild accusations of illegality. But the international law applicable to the blockade eludes the grasp of those in search of easy answers.

The most serious charge is that by seizing control of the flotilla, Israel violated the freedom of ships to travel on the high seas. The basic law here is that states have jurisdiction over a 12-mile territorial sea and can take enforcement actions in an additional 12-mile contiguous zone, according to the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention (which Israel has not ratified, but which is generally regarded as reflecting customary international law). Outside that area, foreign ships can sail unmolested.

But there are exceptions. Longstanding customary international law permits states to enforce publicly announced blockades on the high seas. The Gaza blockade was known to all, and certainly to those who launched the ships for the very purpose of breaking it. The real question is whether the Israeli blockade is lawful. Blockades certainly are during times of war or armed conflict. The U.S.-led coalition imposed a blockade on Iraq during the first Gulf War.

The catch here is the meaning of "armed conflict." Traditionally, armed conflict can take place only between sovereign states. If Gaza were clearly a sovereign state, then Israel would be at war with Gaza and the blockade would be lawful. If, however, Gaza were just a part of Israel, Israel would have the right to control its borders— but not by intercepting foreign ships outside its 12-mile territorial sea or contiguous zone.

Gaza is not a sovereign state (although it has its own government, controlled by Hamas) and is not a part of Israel or of any other state. Its status is ambiguous, and so too is the nature of the armed conflict between Israel and Hamas. Thus there is no clear answer to the question whether the blockade is lawful.

However, the traditional idea of armed conflict involving only sovereign states has long given way to a looser definition that includes some conflicts between states and nonstate actors. The international rules governing blockades attempt to balance belligerents' interest in security and other countries' economic interests in shipping. During war, security interests prevail.

War-like conditions certainly exist between Israel and Hamas. And because Israel intercepts only self-identified blockade runners, its actions have little impact on neutral shipping. This balance is reflected in the traditional privilege of states to capture foreign pirates on the high seas.

So Israel's legal position is reasonable, and it has precedent. During the U.S. Civil War, the Union claimed to blockade the Confederacy while at the same time maintaining that the Confederacy was not a sovereign state but an agent of insurrection.

When the Union navy seized ships trying to run the blockade, their owners argued that a country cannot interfere with shipping on the high seas except during war, and one cannot be at war except with another sovereign state. The U.S. Supreme Court approved the captures in an ambiguous opinion that held that an armed conflict existed, even though one side was not a sovereign state. The opinion suggests a certain latitude for countries to use blockades against internal as well as external enemies.

Human Rights Watch argues that a blockade to strike at a terrorist organization constitutes a collective penalty against a civilian population, in violation of Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention. This argument won't stand up. Blockades and other forms of economic sanction are permitted in international law, which necessarily means that civilians will suffer through no fault of their own.

Most attention has focused on the question whether Israeli commandos used excessive force while taking control of one of the flotilla ships, which resulted in nine deaths. Human Rights Watch says that Israel's actions violated the 1990 United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials. However, that document is not international law; its principles are akin to a set of "best practices" for advising countries with poorly trained police forces. It is also vague and it would not apply to a military operation.

Military operations must respect the principle of proportionality, which is a fuzzy, "know-it-when-you-see-it" test. But one thing is clear. Ships that run blockades may be attacked and sunk under international law. If Israel had exercised that right, far more than nine people would have been killed.

Mr. Posner, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, is the author of "The Perils of Global Legalism" (University of Chicago Press, 2009).

Ugh. What a shitty piece of writing.

It dismisses the law of proportionality with little more than a mention.

And merely because blockades mean that civilians will necessarily suffer does not mean that they cannot cause undue suffering. By, for example, banning things that are purely civilian in nature.

 

[rhodescholar]

Know what the biggest absurdity of this is???

Liberal public policy doesnt even exist without American Jews!!! Obama NEVER gets elected without Jewish $$...........which make up almost 1/4 of contributions to the DNC through lobbying efforts!!! Jewish support is pivitol to Democrat candidates getting elected.............yet the American left.............the MovOn.org assholes and all those who embrace them are all fcukking anti-Semites!!! They embrace the fcukking terror bad guys and are a disgrace to our country!!!

And those who reference the UN??? You're so GD naive its beyond gone!! The whole organization HATES Israel!!!

Watch what happens to the percentage of jewish democratic votes in the next election...

 

[rhodescholar]

Ugh. What a shitty piece of writing.

It dismisses the law of proportionality with little more than a mention.

And merely because blockades mean that civilians will necessarily suffer does not mean that they cannot cause undue suffering. By, for example, banning things that are purely civilian in nature.

Ugh I can see why I put you on ignore, you rarely fail to disappoint with your immense stupidity.

No facts, no reason - just all emotion.

 

[jillian]

Please to detail their alleged support for terrorist groups.

Gaza isn't a country and bringing humanitarian goods to another country isn't an "invasion".

Israel is a country and gaza is within Israel.

Really?

So Gazans are allowed the right to vote in Israel since Gaza is a part of Israel?

are non-citizens allowed to vote in any country?

don't think so.

funny how you expect things from israel that no country in the world does.

then you wonder why we know people who think like you are anti-semites.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Supporting terrorist groups and trying to invade another country.

Please to detail their alleged support for terrorist groups.

Gaza isn't a country and bringing humanitarian goods to another country isn't an "invasion".

Israel doesn't turn away "humanitarian goods". There's a procedure which, when followed, moves humanitarian aid overland into Gaza.

Those thugs CHOSE to run the blockade. That's what they were there to do. Easy enough to see, because if it had been about humanitarianism... they'd have followed the established procedure.

Thousands of families in Gaza are still living in tents from Cast Lead because of the blockade. Unemployment is sky high because factories cannot import raw materials nor can they export goods. Farmers cannot export their produce. Hundreds of people have died due to the lack of medical care. Families are separated.

Gaza Mom Blog Archive I was born Palestinian

That is why these so called thugs are trying to break these asshole's blockade.

 

[rhodescholar]

Thousands of families in Gaza are still living in tents from Cast Lead because of the blockade. Unemployment is sky high because factories cannot import raw materials nor can they export goods. Farmers cannot export their produce. Hundreds of people have died due to the lack of medical care. Families are separated.

Yes cunthole, these things are terrible - so what IS Hamas trying to do to fix them?

Are they negotiating with Israel or Egypt and offering a peaceful solution?

Are they willing to change their beliefs to stop trying to destroy israel, so then israel can klift its blockade?

Are they using their aid/funding to bring in more food?

You answer for me, moron.

 

[Nik]

Israel is a country and gaza is within Israel.

Really?

So Gazans are allowed the right to vote in Israel since Gaza is a part of Israel?

are non-citizens allowed to vote in any country?

don't think so.

funny how you expect things from israel that no country in the world does.

then you wonder why we know people who think like you are anti-semites.

And pray tell, why are they non-citizens if Gaza is a part of Israel? Israel would never systematically disenfranchise 1.5 million people because of where they were born....would it?

Do explain exactly what I expect of Israel that no country in the world does. Please be specific.

Right. I'm anti-semitic. Because I'm the one who is painting vast generalizations about a particular religion. Well good, by your own definition you are bigoted against Muslims. If anyone said half of the shit about Jews that you say about Muslims you'd be at their throat with cries of anti-semitism. Fucking disgusting.

 

[Nik]

Thousands of families in Gaza are still living in tents from Cast Lead because of the blockade. Unemployment is sky high because factories cannot import raw materials nor can they export goods. Farmers cannot export their produce. Hundreds of people have died due to the lack of medical care. Families are separated.

Yes cunthole, these things are terrible - so what IS Hamas trying to do to fix them?

Are they negotiating with Israel or Egypt and offering a peaceful solution?

Are they willing to change their beliefs to stop trying to destroy israel, so then israel can klift its blockade?

Are they using their aid/funding to bring in more food?

You answer for me, moron.

Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. Indeed, the extensive social and political work done by Hamas - and its reputation among Palestinians as averse to corruption - partly explain its defeat of the Fatah old guard in the 2006 legislative vote. Hamas funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz.

Hamas - Council on Foreign Relations

 

[The Rabbi]

Please to detail their alleged support for terrorist groups.

Gaza isn't a country and bringing humanitarian goods to another country isn't an "invasion".

Israel doesn't turn away "humanitarian goods". There's a procedure which, when followed, moves humanitarian aid overland into Gaza.

Those thugs CHOSE to run the blockade. That's what they were there to do. Easy enough to see, because if it had been about humanitarianism... they'd have followed the established procedure.

Actually it turns away all sorts of food.

You realize that isn't a response to the statement, right? Israel sends many times the amount of food and supplies to Gaza that the 5 ships were bringing, every day.

And I am starting to agree with Rhodesscholar that you are nothing more than an ugly troll and need to join your jew-hating pals on iggy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gaza isn't a country and bringing humanitarian goods to another country isn't an "invasion".

If Gaza is not a country who can Israel be violating international law by blockading it?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Thousands of families in Gaza are still living in tents from Cast Lead because of the blockade. Unemployment is sky high because factories cannot import raw materials nor can they export goods. Farmers cannot export their produce. Hundreds of people have died due to the lack of medical care. Families are separated.

Yes cunthole, these things are terrible - so what IS Hamas trying to do to fix them?

Are they negotiating with Israel or Egypt and offering a peaceful solution?

Are they willing to change their beliefs to stop trying to destroy israel, so then israel can klift its blockade?

Are they using their aid/funding to bring in more food?

You answer for me, moron.

Please watch the language. There is a gentleman present.

If you could keep up, you would know what they are doing.

They stopped all suicide bombing in 2005.

They called for a truce at the signing of the "Roadmap" but Israel went into Palestine the very next day and killed several Palestinians.

They called for a truce when they were elected in 2006 and they honored that truce for a year while Israel killed almost 400 Palestinians. They called off that truce when Israel killed that family on the beach.

They have accepted the 2001 Arab Peace Initiative that would have all Arab countries, including Palestine, recognize Israel on 1967 borders.

They would accept any peace agreement with Israel that was approved by the majority of Palestinians.

They have greatly reduced rocket fire out of Gaza. Since it is not illegal to fire rockets into Israeli settlements they only have persuasion but rockets are a small fraction of what they used to be.

Does that answer your question?

 

[The Rabbi]

It answers the question of why I put you on Ignore and otehrs should too.

 

[Nik]

Israel doesn't turn away "humanitarian goods". There's a procedure which, when followed, moves humanitarian aid overland into Gaza.

Those thugs CHOSE to run the blockade. That's what they were there to do. Easy enough to see, because if it had been about humanitarianism... they'd have followed the established procedure.

Actually it turns away all sorts of food.

You realize that isn't a response to the statement, right? Israel sends many times the amount of food and supplies to Gaza that the 5 ships were bringing, every day.

And I am starting to agree with Rhodesscholar that you are nothing more than an ugly troll and need to join your jew-hating pals on iggy.

Really?

Proof that Israel sends many times more than the 5 ships were sending every day.

And me pointing out that you are a dishonest sack of shit doesn't make me an anti-semite.

 

[Nik]

Gaza isn't a country and bringing humanitarian goods to another country isn't an "invasion".

If Gaza is not a country who can Israel be violating international law by blockading it?

Please show me it says that blockades on territories are treated differently than blockades on countries.

Also you wingers have to get your stories straight. Some of you are saying Gaza is an independent country, some are saying that Gaza is part of Israel. Why aren't you arguing with each other ?....

Oh right. Cause you don't care what it is, as long as you can justify Israels actions.

 

[Murf76]

Thousands of families in Gaza are still living in tents from Cast Lead because of the blockade. Unemployment is sky high because factories cannot import raw materials nor can they export goods. Farmers cannot export their produce. Hundreds of people have died due to the lack of medical care. Families are separated.

Gaza Mom Blog Archive I was born Palestinian

That is why these so called thugs are trying to break these asshole's blockade.

Hmmmm.... Maybe using Gaza as a launch point to lob rockets into Israeli neighborhoods wasn't such a great idea then. Who knew??

"Land for Peace"? What a crappy idea that turned out to be, because every time Israel has sought peaceful solutions with Palestinians by giving something up at the bargaining table, they use it to wage war.

These people DO NOT WANT peace. They want dead Jews. And then they cry great crocodile tears because the Jews won't accommodate them by politely dropping dead.

The stupidity of the American left is that they utterly REFUSE to acknowledge that the rest of the Muslim world doesn't really give a heaping crap about the Palestinians. If they did, they'd have made peace by now, providing prosperity. Palestinians are just a useful focal point to rally around while they attempt to spread their Sharia nonsense around the world to build their insane "caliphate". And the American left are just useful idiots.

The Palestinians should be happy that they're dealing with Netanyahu and not me. Because I'd have bulldozed Gaza by now and put in a very large parking lot.

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually it turns away all sorts of food.

You realize that isn't a response to the statement, right? Israel sends many times the amount of food and supplies to Gaza that the 5 ships were bringing, every day.

And I am starting to agree with Rhodesscholar that you are nothing more than an ugly troll and need to join your jew-hating pals on iggy.

Really?

Proof that Israel sends many times more than the 5 ships were sending every day.

And me pointing out that you are a dishonest sack of shit doesn't make me an anti-semite.

How's this, dickbreath?
Israel Continues to Transfer Humanitarian Aid to Gaza

And you're right: calling me names does not make you an anti semite.
Ignorant ranting posts supporting Hamas terrorists and attacking Israel make you an anti-semite.