Bring your video camera to your town hall

[Annie]

Hey, thats's no Fair! Conservatives are protesting without the help of Community Organizers!

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

You've got proof of such? Already have both the administration and SEIU leadership calling for their blue shirts, you know, those that beat up a man?

 

[Coyote]

I'm not sure about that "right to be heard and too hear--".
Haven't read that anywhere.

That's because it's in the same category as "your right to free speech stops when it effects someone else's rights". Like my right to free speech which can't be exercised when you are yelling loud enough to drown it out.

I guess some folks believe that only they (the loudest) have the right to free speech.

Keep making excuses.

Oh I understand the problem--I think the Constitution neglected to address our right to hear. Sorta like politicians neglect promises to be transparent.

No, you don't understand it.

I'm not talking about "liberal this" or "conservative that". I'm not talking about our "right to hear". I'm talking about our right to speak and that implies a subesequent right to be heard that doesn't have to explicitely stated and has nothing to do with partisan politics despite your attempt to make it so with your comment about "transparent" that has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Is free speech a limited right? Yes. Your right to "free speech" does not mean you can assault some one in order to "express" yourself does it?

But it is not a right limited to just some people: those angry or annoyed with the health plan have a right to express their views; the elected representative has a right to express his views or answer questions (sorry to disappoint you but simply because he's a politician does not mean his rights to free speech are nullified) and those who want to hear him and ask their own questions have a right to do so as well.

What is happening in these townhalls is that one group has taken upon themselves the role of "free speech police" by deciding that only their view has the right to be expressed and shouting over anyone else's attempts to speak or get information.

It just amazes me the excuses these "free speech apologists" are making in an attemt to excuse what in any other situation would be rude, intolerable and downright childish tactics of disruption disquised as legitimate "free speech". No one is telling them they can't express themselves - no matter how you try to spin it - they are just saying that there are proper ways of doing that and if you are going act rude and childish you will be called on it.

It's not about free speech at all - it's about respect for everyone's "right" of free speech in a public meeting. Not just yours.

 

[EriktheRed]

Hey, thats's no Fair! Conservatives are protesting without the help of Community Organizers!

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

You've got proof of such? Already have both the administration and SEIU leadership calling for their blue shirts, you know, those that beat up a man?

Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.

CPR is the group headed by controversial former hospitals exec Rick Scott that’s spending millions on ads attacking reform in all sorts of lurid ways, a campaign that’s being handled by the same P.R. mavens behind the Swift Boat Vets.

In response to my questions, a spokesman for the group confirmed that it has undertaken a concerted effort to get people out to the town hall meetings to protest reform. The spokesperson, Brian Burgess, confirmed that CPR is emailing out “town hall alert” flyers, and schedules of town hall meetings, to its mailing list.

These efforts — combined with CPR’s effort to enlist Tea Party-ers, as reported yesterday by TPM — provide a glimpse into the ways anti-reform groups are trying to create a sense of public momentum in their favor.

CPR spokesman Burgess confirmed that the group had set up a list serv designed to reach out to “third party groups” involved in the health care fight, including the Tea Party activists. And in a statement emailed to me, Scott, who was ousted as a health-care exec amid a 1990s fraud probe, took credit for the town hall showings.

“We have invested a lot of time, energy and resources into educating Americans over the past several months about the dangers of government-run health care and I think we’re seeing some of the fruits of that campaign,” Scott said, though he claimed outrage was spontaneous.

Similarly, America’s Health Insurance Plans, or AHIP, the insurance industry group, has stationed employees in 30 states to track local town hall events.

Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies | The Plum Line

 

[dilloduck]

That's because it's in the same category as "your right to free speech stops when it effects someone else's rights". Like my right to free speech which can't be exercised when you are yelling loud enough to drown it out.

I guess some folks believe that only they (the loudest) have the right to free speech.

Keep making excuses.

Oh I understand the problem--I think the Constitution neglected to address our right to hear. Sorta like politicians neglect promises to be transparent.

No, you don't understand it.

I'm not talking about "liberal this" or "conservative that". I'm not talking about our "right to hear". I'm talking about our right to speak and that implies a subesequent right to be heard that doesn't have to explicitely stated and has nothing to do with partisan politics despite your attempt to make it so with your comment about "transparent" that has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Is free speech a limited right? Yes. Your right to "free speech" does not mean you can assault some one in order to "express" yourself does it?

But it is not a right limited to just some people: those angry or annoyed with the health plan have a right to express their views; the elected representative has a right to express his views or answer questions (sorry to disappoint you but simply because he's a politician does not mean his rights to free speech are nullified) and those who want to hear him and ask their own questions have a right to do so as well.

What is happening in these townhalls is that one group has taken upon themselves the role of "free speech police" by deciding that only their view has the right to be expressed and shouting over anyone else's attempts to speak or get information.

It just amazes me the excuses these "free speech apologists" are making in an attemt to excuse what in any other situation would be rude, intolerable and downright childish tactics of disruption disquised as legitimate "free speech". No one is telling them they can't express themselves - no matter how you try to spin it - they are just saying that there are proper ways of doing that and if you are going act rude and childish you will be called on it.

It's not about free speech at all - it's about respect for everyone's "right" of free speech in a public meeting. Not just yours.

Can you think of a legal way to enforce anyone's right to be heard ?

 

[Coyote]

thats not what i saw happening

That is certainly what was happening in many of those videos posted.

It's rude and frankly selfish for those who wanted to hear their representatives answers to the questions.

no, what it was was congress people NOT listening
they tried to use their double talking bullshit, only NO ONE was buying it

That's purely a matter of personal opinion. So, what you are saying then is that this group of people is somehow so "special" that their rights of "free speech" supercede everyone elses simply because they are louder and of the correct ideological leaning? Ideology trumps all else for you when it comes to free speech? Maybe these rude people should be limited to free speech zones - isn't that what you prefer to do with the angry liberals? Some angry people have more rights then other angry people?

Bullshit is right. If I were at one of those meetings I would be hard pressed not to turn around and say - "were you raised in a barn or something?"....or, more likely - a firm, loud "SIT - STAY" and "THAT'LL DO". Works on dogs....maybe it would work on people.

 

[Coyote]

Oh I understand the problem--I think the Constitution neglected to address our right to hear. Sorta like politicians neglect promises to be transparent.

No, you don't understand it.

I'm not talking about "liberal this" or "conservative that". I'm not talking about our "right to hear". I'm talking about our right to speak and that implies a subesequent right to be heard that doesn't have to explicitely stated and has nothing to do with partisan politics despite your attempt to make it so with your comment about "transparent" that has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Is free speech a limited right? Yes. Your right to "free speech" does not mean you can assault some one in order to "express" yourself does it?

But it is not a right limited to just some people: those angry or annoyed with the health plan have a right to express their views; the elected representative has a right to express his views or answer questions (sorry to disappoint you but simply because he's a politician does not mean his rights to free speech are nullified) and those who want to hear him and ask their own questions have a right to do so as well.

What is happening in these townhalls is that one group has taken upon themselves the role of "free speech police" by deciding that only their view has the right to be expressed and shouting over anyone else's attempts to speak or get information.

It just amazes me the excuses these "free speech apologists" are making in an attemt to excuse what in any other situation would be rude, intolerable and downright childish tactics of disruption disquised as legitimate "free speech". No one is telling them they can't express themselves - no matter how you try to spin it - they are just saying that there are proper ways of doing that and if you are going act rude and childish you will be called on it.

It's not about free speech at all - it's about respect for everyone's "right" of free speech in a public meeting. Not just yours.

Can you think of a legal way to enforce anyone's right to be heard ?

The right to be heard is implicit - otherwise, a person could just be locked in room to have his "free speech" instead of allowed to stand on a public corner or a person's writings can be censured - he's still allowed to write...but the public can't view them.

Legal way to enforce it? None really. Public dialogue and open critique of childish and disruptive behavior. Public ridicule. Worst thing is - it will put a stop to town meetings becuase it's impossible to conduct them when one group decides that they will do anything they can to disrupt them and preventing opposing sides from being heard or the speaker from speaking. Quit apologizing for rude behavior and condemn it because it's not "genuine" - it's not "spontaneous" - it's using explicitely stated tactics of disruption from organized special interest groups that sponsoring these things.

It amazes me that the same people who condemn the likes of Code Pink turn completely around and support the same tactics when used by their own.

Does "free speech" have limits?

 

[dilloduck]

No, you don't understand it.

I'm not talking about "liberal this" or "conservative that". I'm not talking about our "right to hear". I'm talking about our right to speak and that implies a subesequent right to be heard that doesn't have to explicitely stated and has nothing to do with partisan politics despite your attempt to make it so with your comment about "transparent" that has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Is free speech a limited right? Yes. Your right to "free speech" does not mean you can assault some one in order to "express" yourself does it?

But it is not a right limited to just some people: those angry or annoyed with the health plan have a right to express their views; the elected representative has a right to express his views or answer questions (sorry to disappoint you but simply because he's a politician does not mean his rights to free speech are nullified) and those who want to hear him and ask their own questions have a right to do so as well.

What is happening in these townhalls is that one group has taken upon themselves the role of "free speech police" by deciding that only their view has the right to be expressed and shouting over anyone else's attempts to speak or get information.

It just amazes me the excuses these "free speech apologists" are making in an attemt to excuse what in any other situation would be rude, intolerable and downright childish tactics of disruption disquised as legitimate "free speech". No one is telling them they can't express themselves - no matter how you try to spin it - they are just saying that there are proper ways of doing that and if you are going act rude and childish you will be called on it.

It's not about free speech at all - it's about respect for everyone's "right" of free speech in a public meeting. Not just yours.

Can you think of a legal way to enforce anyone's right to be heard ?

The right to be heard is implicit - otherwise, a person could just be locked in room to have his "free speech" instead of allowed to stand on a public corner or a person's writings can be censured - he's still allowed to write...but the public can't view them.

Legal way to enforce it? None really. Public dialogue and open critique of childish and disruptive behavior. Public ridicule. Worst thing is - it will put a stop to town meetings becuase it's impossible to conduct them when one group decides that they will do anything they can to disrupt them and preventing opposing sides from being heard or the speaker from speaking. Quit apologizing for rude behavior and condemn it because it's not "genuine" - it's not "spontaneous" - it's using explicitely stated tactics of disruption from organized special interest groups that sponsoring these things.

It amazes me that the same people who condemn the likes of Code Pink turn completely around and support the same tactics when used by their own.

Does "free speech" have limits?

I've never apologized for rude behavior--but when it's intepreted as free speech we're screwed. Catch -22 ya know ?

 

[Barb]

Hey, thats's no Fair! Conservatives are protesting without the help of Community Organizers!

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

You've got proof of such? Already have both the administration and SEIU leadership calling for their blue shirts, you know, those that beat up a man?

How many times does the answer to that question have to be posted before you stop pretending you haven't seen it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/opinion/07krugman.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: August 6, 2009

The Town Hall Mob

Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, has compared the scenes at health care town halls to the “Brooks Brothers riot” in 2000 — the demonstration that disrupted the vote count in Miami and arguably helped send George W. Bush to the White House. Portrayed at the time as local protesters, many of the rioters were actually G.O.P. staffers flown in from Washington.

But Mr. Gibbs is probably only half right. Yes, well-heeled interest groups are helping to organize the town hall mobs. Key organizers include two Astroturf (fake grass-roots) organizations: FreedomWorks, run by the former House majority leader Dick Armey, and a new organization called Conservatives for Patients’ Rights.

The latter group, by the way, is run by Rick Scott, the former head of Columbia/HCA, a for-profit hospital chain. Mr. Scott was forced out of that job amid a fraud investigation; the company eventually pleaded guilty to charges of overbilling state and federal health plans, paying $1.7 billion — yes, that’s “billion” — in fines. You can’t make this stuff up.

 

[Annie]

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

You've got proof of such? Already have both the administration and SEIU leadership calling for their blue shirts, you know, those that beat up a man?

Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.

CPR is the group headed by controversial former hospitals exec Rick Scott that’s spending millions on ads attacking reform in all sorts of lurid ways, a campaign that’s being handled by the same P.R. mavens behind the Swift Boat Vets.

In response to my questions, a spokesman for the group confirmed that it has undertaken a concerted effort to get people out to the town hall meetings to protest reform. The spokesperson, Brian Burgess, confirmed that CPR is emailing out “town hall alert” flyers, and schedules of town hall meetings, to its mailing list.

These efforts — combined with CPR’s effort to enlist Tea Party-ers, as reported yesterday by TPM — provide a glimpse into the ways anti-reform groups are trying to create a sense of public momentum in their favor.

CPR spokesman Burgess confirmed that the group had set up a list serv designed to reach out to “third party groups” involved in the health care fight, including the Tea Party activists. And in a statement emailed to me, Scott, who was ousted as a health-care exec amid a 1990s fraud probe, took credit for the town hall showings.

“We have invested a lot of time, energy and resources into educating Americans over the past several months about the dangers of government-run health care and I think we’re seeing some of the fruits of that campaign,” Scott said, though he claimed outrage was spontaneous.

Similarly, America’s Health Insurance Plans, or AHIP, the insurance industry group, has stationed employees in 30 states to track local town hall events.

Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies | The Plum Line

Following the link to the basis of this story:

Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign | TPMDC

We find that an email was sent listing town hall meetings throughout the country. Ok, that's the norm for the past 12 years or so, regarding meetings, rallies, etc. How many do you go to from the mailing lists you get notifications from?

Now if I found one that was within a 15 miles distance, that included my representative or one of the senators and I was free, perhaps I'd go. Then again, if Law & Order repeats were on?

Sorry, this doesn't qualify as an incitement to overthrowing the democracy. That so many are showing up says more about the bills than about the protesters. Now the flip side is why are union workers showing up and out shouting the so called 'mobs.' Several times now I've said that since the Congress people are so upset about 'the mobs' it would be a good idea to check id's and only allow constituents into the meetings, not just registered voters, but any resident.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Hey, thats's no Fair! Conservatives are protesting without the help of Community Organizers!

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

Have you actually read the Final Solution Health Care Bill?

When the elderly in this country realize what you have planned for them so that you can insure Illegals and fund abortions you're really going to see protests

 

[EriktheRed]

Following the link to the basis of this story:

Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign | TPMDC

We find that an email was sent listing town hall meetings throughout the country. Ok, that's the norm for the past 12 years or so, regarding meetings, rallies, etc. How many do you go to from the mailing lists you get notifications from?

Now if I found one that was within a 15 miles distance, that included my representative or one of the senators and I was free, perhaps I'd go. Then again, if Law & Order repeats were on?

Sorry, this doesn't qualify as an incitement to overthrowing the democracy. That so many are showing up says more about the bills than about the protesters. Now the flip side is why are union workers showing up and out shouting the so called 'mobs.' Several times now I've said that since the Congress people are so upset about 'the mobs' it would be a good idea to check id's and only allow constituents into the meetings, not just registered voters, but any resident.

There was never any mention of this qualifying as "an incitement to overthrowing the democracy". The point was - and still is - that this is not as grassroots as people want to make it out to be. Because bigger orgs like the one run by that crook Rick Scott are helping out.


What about the example Barb just posted, btw?

 

[EriktheRed]

Hey, thats's no Fair! Conservatives are protesting without the help of Community Organizers!

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

Have you actually read the Final Solution Health Care Bill?

When the elderly in this country realize what you have planned for them so that you can insure Illegals and fund abortions you're really going to see protests

You need help.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

No, they just have healthcare industry lobby groups and wingnut orgs like Freedom's Watch helping them out.

Have you actually read the Final Solution Health Care Bill?

When the elderly in this country realize what you have planned for them so that you can insure Illegals and fund abortions you're really going to see protests

You need help.

I need more ammo

 

[EriktheRed]

You need help.

I need more ammo

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Page 425:

"(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1));"; and

(B) by adding at the end the following new subsection:

"Advance Care Planning Consultation

"(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

"(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.

"(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

"(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

"(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline"


HealthCare Hotline Operator: How may I help you end your life?

 

[Annie]

Following the link to the basis of this story:

Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign | TPMDC

We find that an email was sent listing town hall meetings throughout the country. Ok, that's the norm for the past 12 years or so, regarding meetings, rallies, etc. How many do you go to from the mailing lists you get notifications from?

Now if I found one that was within a 15 miles distance, that included my representative or one of the senators and I was free, perhaps I'd go. Then again, if Law & Order repeats were on?

Sorry, this doesn't qualify as an incitement to overthrowing the democracy. That so many are showing up says more about the bills than about the protesters. Now the flip side is why are union workers showing up and out shouting the so called 'mobs.' Several times now I've said that since the Congress people are so upset about 'the mobs' it would be a good idea to check id's and only allow constituents into the meetings, not just registered voters, but any resident.

There was never any mention of this qualifying as "an incitement to overthrowing the democracy". The point was - and still is - that this is not as grassroots as people want to make it out to be. Because bigger orgs like the one run by that crook Rick Scott are helping out.


What about the example Barb just posted, btw?

What is your definition of 'grass roots?' As I implied above, for the most part it would be pretty tough to get me to show up at a town hall meeting. However, if I was very concerned about an issue and got a notification that there was a meeting that would be convenient for me, I might go. Are you saying that being informed by some internet site or the Country Demcratic/Republican organization, (yes, I get emails from both), would make my appearance less than 'grass roots'?

If I sign up for emails from an online organization, that sends the same info to me and I go, is that not 'grass roots?'

To my way of thinking, if I and 200 of my fellow friends show up at a town hall for a representative of another district, that would be astroturfing.

 

[EriktheRed]

Following the link to the basis of this story:

Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign | TPMDC

We find that an email was sent listing town hall meetings throughout the country. Ok, that's the norm for the past 12 years or so, regarding meetings, rallies, etc. How many do you go to from the mailing lists you get notifications from?

Now if I found one that was within a 15 miles distance, that included my representative or one of the senators and I was free, perhaps I'd go. Then again, if Law & Order repeats were on?

Sorry, this doesn't qualify as an incitement to overthrowing the democracy. That so many are showing up says more about the bills than about the protesters. Now the flip side is why are union workers showing up and out shouting the so called 'mobs.' Several times now I've said that since the Congress people are so upset about 'the mobs' it would be a good idea to check id's and only allow constituents into the meetings, not just registered voters, but any resident.

There was never any mention of this qualifying as "an incitement to overthrowing the democracy". The point was - and still is - that this is not as grassroots as people want to make it out to be. Because bigger orgs like the one run by that crook Rick Scott are helping out.


What about the example Barb just posted, btw?

What is your definition of 'grass roots?' As I implied above, for the most part it would be pretty tough to get me to show up at a town hall meeting. However, if I was very concerned about an issue and got a notification that there was a meeting that would be convenient for me, I might go. Are you saying that being informed by some internet site or the Country Demcratic/Republican organization, (yes, I get emails from both), would make my appearance less than 'grass roots'?

If I sign up for emails from an online organization, that sends the same info to me and I go, is that not 'grass roots?'

To my way of thinking, if I and 200 of my fellow friends show up at a town hall for a representative of another district, that would be astroturfing.

I see your point, but then that means that those of us who wish to counter-protest in favor of HCR aren't less grassroots, either, just because SEIU or other liberal is also supporting these efforts.


Did you ever answer Sweet Willy, btw?

 

[Sweet Willy]

But, what I was getting at DK, was that "liberals" are ALWAYS the first to hit the streets and punish everyone within their shouting and rioting range. Conservatives on the other hand DON'T act like that. For the most part, conservatives are much better mannered than any liberal. And THAT should tell you something about liberals.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/11186-the-protests-have-begun-in-n-y.html

 

[Sweet Willy]

But, what I was getting at DK, was that "liberals" are ALWAYS the first to hit the streets and punish everyone within their shouting and rioting range. Conservatives on the other hand DON'T act like that. For the most part, conservatives are much better mannered than any liberal. And THAT should tell you something about liberals.

PaleRider, I think it also tells us something about Conservatives, we wish to be perceived as 'more adult.' At the same time, I think we are more 'nuanced' which seems to have taken the place of 'gravitas' for this election cycle.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/11186-the-protests-have-begun-in-n-y.html

 

[Sweet Willy]

The right to protest has not been taken away. The desire to protest in a manner that disrupts and infringes on the rights of others not to be bothered by such crap is regulated.

The reason for protests in the form of physical demonstration is to get attention to some extremist cause by whatever means necessary. As previously stated, those means almost always include infringing on the Rights of others and disrupting the general good order of society.

You rights end where mine begin.

.http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-m...the-military-was-protecting-our-freedoms.html