Boy Beats the Pants off of Girls in Track & Field Race

[Curried Goats]

Do I need to go through it?

Men and woman have different sex characteristics.

From Wikipedia:

The increased secretion of testosterone from the testes during puberty causes the male secondary sexual characteristics to be manifested.[23] Testosterone directly increases size and mass of muscles, vocal cords, and bones, deepening of the voice, and changing the shape of the face and skeleton.[1] Converted into DHT in the skin, it accelerates growth of androgen-responsive facial and body hair but may slow and eventually stop the growth of head hair.[citation needed] Taller stature is largely a result of later puberty and slower epiphyseal fusion

I’m a powerlifter. I’m stronger than the vast majority of men, but there’s obviously a slew of male powerlifters stronger than I am.

On the other hand, I’m very confident that I am stronger than the strongest biological woman in the world, even though there’s obviously many women out there who’ve dedicated more of their lives to the sport than I have. (And please don’t drag out some juiced up ex Soviet female lifter who was born with a Y chromosome. That just proves my point)

My sex gives me an advantage they can never have.

Therefore, me competing in powerlifting against other men equals fair. Me saying I identify as a woman and competing against women equals unfair.

It’s really that simple.

Great, so your answer is testosterone. Now what do you imagine hormone blockers are blocking?

 

[braalian]

Great, so your answer is testosterone. Now what do you imagine hormone blockers are blocking?

Do you honestly think if I took some testosterone blockers, it would be fair for me to compete against women? Really?

We’re not talking about random men competing against random women. We’re talking about elite athletes. Men will always have the advantage in that scenario no matter if they took some test blockers.

Puberty already happened by that point. Blocking testosterone won’t “reverse” very much of that.

 

[Curried Goats]

Do you honestly think if I took some testosterone blockers, it would be fair for me to compete against women? Really?

We’re not talking about random men competing against random women. We’re talking about elite athletes. Men will always have the advantage in that scenario no matter if they took some test blockers.

That's your claim but where is your scientific evidence to back it up? Men are bigger, faster and stronger because of the hormones that affect things like muscle growth.

 

[braalian]

That's your claim but where is your scientific evidence to back it up? Men are bigger, faster and stronger because of the hormones that affect things like muscle growth.

It’s common sense

The sex characteristic thing and the corresponding differences in strength and size happened in puberty and gestation.

If adding or subtracting testosterone with injections as adults were all it took, then why is it that female bodybuilders who take a shit ton of steroids never, ever, get anywhere near as huge as the dude bodybuilders who also took a shit ton of steroids? Because it’s about the sex you were assigned at birth, that’s why.

 

[braalian]

I guarantee that this woman has taken more male hormones than any physician would ever prescribe for the medical purposes of transitioning. She has insane amounts of testosterone coursing in her blood.

And yet, pretty sure she can’t bench as much as I can. And if she were to compete against male bodybuilders (who admittedly are just as juiced as she is) she would rank dead last if judged on size and fullness of muscle.

The female body she was born with simply has limits that no amount of injected test will ever overcome.

This is a male bodybulder on and off steroids.

When you stop steroids, it is exactly the same as the puberty blockers you seem to think level the playing field.

His testosterone is “blocked” in the sense that his testicles no longer produce the hormone naturally because he flooded his system with artificial ones for so long.

As you can see, he’s smaller and less muscular.

But do you really think it would be fair for him to compete against women in any sport?

 

[Curried Goats]

It’s common sense

The sex characteristic thing and the corresponding differences in strength and size happened in puberty and gestation.

If adding or subtracting testosterone with injections as adults were all it took, then why is it that female bodybuilders who take a shit ton of steroids never, ever, get anywhere near as huge as the dude bodybuilders who also took a shit ton of steroids? Because it’s about the sex you were assigned at birth, that’s why.

I'm not asking you for common sense, I'm asking you for scientific evidence to support your claim. Any commoner can come here and claim whatever the **** they want, that doesn't mean it's rationally supported by any sort of evidence.

 

[braalian]

And even if testosterone blockers DID level the playing field (they don’t) how you going to regulate that?

Transwomen have to drop urine to prove their test levels are at woman-levels?

Not all transwomen take test-blockers. Won’t they ***** and moan about being excluded?

 

[Curried Goats]

And even if testosterone blockers DID level the playing field (they don’t) how you going to regulate that?

Transwomen have to drop urine to prove their test levels are at woman-levels?

Not all transwomen take test-blockers. Won’t they ***** and moan about being excluded?

Where is your evidence that they dont?

 

[braalian]

I'm not asking you for common sense, I'm asking you for scientific evidence to support your claim. Any commoner can come here and claim whatever the **** they want, that doesn't mean it's rationally supported by any sort of evidence.

Did you even read my posts?

The example that female bodybuilders never get anywhere near as big and strong as male builders even though they’re all on shit ton of steroids proves that being born female creates limits that no amount of hormone therapy can overcome. As evidenced by the upward limits of female muscle growth being demonstrably lower than that of men even when both are taking steroids.

 

[Curried Goats]

Did you even read my posts?

The example that female bodybuilders never get anywhere near as big and strong as male builders even though they’re all on shit ton of steroids proves that being born female creates limits that no amount of hormone therapy can overcome.

And, if I were to suddenly have my testosterone production blocked, I would still very clearly have major strength advantages over female atheletes.

You're comparing female athletes who are not on estrogen blockers to males, not trans male athletes to cis male athletes.

 

[braalian]

I'm not asking you for common sense, I'm asking you for scientific evidence to support your claim. Any commoner can come here and claim whatever the **** they want, that doesn't mean it's rationally supported by any sort of evidence.

And at the risk of sounding douchey I think it’s fair to say that I have more that a “commoner’s” knowledge of muscle growth and of the effects of taking testosterone.

I don’t have the scientific background to get into all the obscure chemical nitty gritty of it, but I don’t need a degree in physics to know that the sky is blue, either.

Men are stronger than women

 

[braalian]

You're comparing female athletes who are not on estrogen blockers to males, not trans male athletes to cis male athletes.

And transwomen are still stronger then biological women because they were born male, went through puberty and spent most of their life with substantially more testosterone coursing through their blood than any woman.

Taking a drug to block test does not magically alter muscle composition in a man to the extent that he suddenly has the body of a woman. That’s not how it works.

Most of the secondary sex characteristics ALREADY HAPPENED and are irreversible

 

[Curried Goats]

And at the risk of sounding douchey I think it’s fair to say that I have more that a “commoner’s” knowledge of muscle growth and of the effects of taking testosterone.

I don’t have the scientific background to get into all the obscure chemical nitty gritty of it, but I don’t need a degree in physics to know that the sky is blue, either.

Men are stronger than women

Except the sky isn't blue. At times it's red or purple because that's just electromagnetic radiation from the sun being scattered in the atmosphere at different wavelengths.

And transwomen are still stronger then biological women because they were born male, went through puberty and spent most of their life with substantially more testosterone coursing through their blood than any woman.

Taking a drug to block test does not magically alter muscle composition in a man to the extent that he suddenly has the body of a woman. That’s not how it works.

Most of the secondary sex characteristics ALREADY HAPPENED and are irreversible

Where is your evidence?

 

[braalian]

Where is your evidence?

What evidence do you want?

Do you deny that the majority of sexual differentiation between males and females takes place preceding and during puberty?

There’s obviously a limit to how much hormone therapy can alter the upward limit of muscle growth between men and women.

If there wasn’t, a female body builder could become as freakishly huge as Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman. But no woman on steroids ever has and none ever will.

Likewise, a transwoman born a man won’t magically have narrower shoulders or decreased lung capacity just because they’ve blocked testosterone production. That’s just not how it works

What exactly do you think happens to a man who takes testosterone blockers? That they magically transform completely into a woman?

Woman who take steroids have a lot of masculinization, but they’re still clearly women.

Why would it work the other way?

 

[Curried Goats]

What evidence do you want?

Do you deny that the majority of sexual differentiation between males and females takes place preceding and during puberty?

There’s obviously a limit to how much hormone therapy can alter the upward limit of muscle growth between men and women.

If there wasn’t, a female body builder could become as freakishly huge as Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman. But no woman on steroids ever has and none ever will.

Likewise, a transwoman born a man won’t magically have narrower shoulders or decreased lung capacity just because they’ve blocked testosterone production. That’s just not how it works

What exactly do you think happens to a man who takes testosterone blockers? That they magically transform completely into a woman?

How rational arguments work is that you present more than just your say so.

 

[braalian]

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

 

[braalian]

Transgender women’s heart-lung capacity and strength exceed those of cisgender peers | BMJ

 

[braalian]

Ok, your turn.

Show me some reputable sources that state transwomen on Hormone therapy don’t have an advantage over biological women

 

[Curried Goats]

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

Did you bother to actual read that article? It supports my argument not yours so let's go through it.

The results, published last month in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, could mean the current one-year waiting period for Olympic athletes who are transitioning is inadequate.​

“For the Olympic level, the elite level, I'd say probably two years is more realistic than one year,” said the study's lead author, Dr. Timothy Roberts, a pediatrician and the director of the adolescent medicine training program at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri. “At one year, the trans women on average still have an advantage over the cis women," he said, referring to cisgender, or nontransgender, women.​

​

So right off the bat the doctor is saying two years after starting hormone treatments Trans athletes should be allowed to compete at the Olympic level with their cis gendered peers. Then it goes on to say:

For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, Roberts told NBC News, “they were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women.”​

 

[candycorn]

You can't take a position that anyone can identify as any gender they feel at any given moment and everyone has to take that as gospel fact ... AND ... simultaneously take a position that we can exclude them from participating as the person they identify.

It's all, or nothing ... either we accept the delusion as a fact, or we don't.

Really? Sure I can. If I recall, you claim to be a cop. I would imagine whatever jail your arrestees end up in doesn’t have co-ed cells meaning you have men in one cell and women in another. If someone identifies as the opposite gender their anatomy suggests...do you keep a third set open for them? If someone identifies as non-binary...do you guys keep a fourth? Nope.

Liberals have gone way off the deep end on this topic. Like when Obama got into the bathroom debate.

The entire argument is stupid. Obama hit the “stupid” button on this or more correctly his administration did but the buck stops with him.

What should have happened was this. Someone who is in the middle management of AG Lynch’s office should have issued an opinion or something along the lines of, “If you have outdoor plumbing, use the men’s room. If you do not, use the lady’s room. If you’re a responsible adult who isn’t jacked up on drugs or have been out in the sun too long the law catches you doing something other than that, get a lawyer. You’re breaking the law.

Frankly, I think even that is too much.