Blue-Collar Workers Are Screwed

[Ringel05]

I guess not.

Hey, take a look at post #34. What I said in pictures.

E7 did post number 34. Besides you missed the point completely, as usual.

As usual, you don't add anything at all. Just tired little smug meaningless comments with you sitting in the dark amazed at your own cleverness. The only one amazed. I applaud you with the sound of one hand clapping.

One again ?? I pointed out that E7 posted number 34 and that as usual you missed the point I was making. Both are facts. Come on dean. You can't possibly be that obtuse, it's humanly impossible.

 

[eagleseven]

In your original post, you set up a bunch of bizarre scenarios. I was making fun of you for pulling all those silly conclusions out of your butt.

Laugh your way to the tent-city.

Many American corporations believed they could move unskilled labor overseas and then bring those products back here and sell them to the very people they fired. Only now they are finding out that people without jobs don't buy and the people they are taking advantage of overseas can't afford the stuff they're making.

Wishful thinking, but simply not true. China is now General Motors' largest market.

Shanghai:

Beijing:

Guangzhou:

Shenzhen:

Chongqing:

Tianjin:

Hong Kong:

Each one of these cities is roughly as large as NYC.

 

[rdean]

In your original post, you set up a bunch of bizarre scenarios. I was making fun of you for pulling all those silly conclusions out of your butt.

Laugh your way to the tent-city.

Many American corporations believed they could move unskilled labor overseas and then bring those products back here and sell them to the very people they fired. Only now they are finding out that people without jobs don't buy and the people they are taking advantage of overseas can't afford the stuff they're making.

Wishful thinking, but simply not true. China is now General Motors' largest market.

Shanghai:

Beijing:

Guangzhou:

Shenzhen:

Chongqing:

Tianjin:

Hong Kong:

Each one of these cities is roughly as large as NYC.

Just building big cities is hardly an indicator of technology.

Just looking at basic energy, China has rolling blackouts. They hoped that problem would be solved with the new giant dam they constructed. Only, they didn't have the technology for such a massive undertaking. And have created, what will soon be, the worlds largest disaster. What China has learned, they have exported to other countries around the world, so the Three Rivers won't be the only disaster, just the largest.

Three Gorges Dam | International Rivers

Bwog Lecture Hop: Fear the Chinese Engineer?

One thing the article leaves out is that in China, the best and brightest go into business and NOT engineering. So even though they graduate many more engineers than the US, their quality is much lower. Similar can be found from other countries.

I'm not saying that other countries can't catch up, obviously they can, but in this country, more bright people go into engineering than other countries. Don't ask my why.

“Be Nice to the Countries That Lend You Money” - Magazine - The Atlantic

My feeling is that it's not too late. The US still has the edge. But there has to be a major shift towards education. For one, charge people from overseas more, a lot more. Many times, they are here because their government pays for their education.

If we are going to "compete", we have to do some of the same things other countries are doing, socialism or not. The government needs to get involved. If we leave things to the Republicans, we will end up being a third world country.

 

[Si modo]

In your original post, you set up a bunch of bizarre scenarios. I was making fun of you for pulling all those silly conclusions out of your butt.

Laugh your way to the tent-city.

Many American corporations believed they could move unskilled labor overseas and then bring those products back here and sell them to the very people they fired. Only now they are finding out that people without jobs don't buy and the people they are taking advantage of overseas can't afford the stuff they're making.

Wishful thinking, but simply not true. China is now General Motors' largest market.

Shanghai:

Beijing:

Guangzhou:

Shenzhen:

Chongqing:

Tianjin:

Hong Kong:

Each one of these cities is roughly as large as NYC.

Just building big cities is hardly an indicator of technology.

....

It is an indicator of the fact that the Chinese certainly CAN afford those products.

 

[eagleseven]

Just building big cities is hardly an indicator of technology.

It demonstrates that, more and more, business does not need the American consumer.

One thing the article leaves out is that in China, the best and brightest go into business and NOT engineering. So even though they graduate many more engineers than the US, their quality is much lower. Similar can be found from other countries.

China's "Best and Brightest" outnumber all of America's students combined.

Further, if you haven't noticed, American students are avoiding math and science like the plague. Fewer young Americans are going into science and engineering than at any time in modern history.

 

[ba1614]

Laugh your way to the tent-city.


Wishful thinking, but simply not true. China is now General Motors' largest market.

Shanghai:

Beijing:

Guangzhou:

Shenzhen:

Chongqing:

Tianjin:

Hong Kong:

Each one of these cities is roughly as large as NYC.

Just building big cities is hardly an indicator of technology.

....

It is an indicator of the fact that the Chinese certainly CAN afford those products.

With more and more of them able to all the time.

 

[Si modo]

Chinese grad students and post docs rarely stay in the US after their studies anymore. They know where the opportunities lie.

 

[asaratis]

Help Win the Trade War with China, Japan, India and the 3rd World! Join the Fair Tax Coalition - Repeal the 16h Amendment! http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...name=about_faq

American blue-collar workers are screwed. Why?

The average world labourer increases their standard of living by out-competing American workers. They work harder and for less money, until they win their share of the industrial jobs.

In other words, for every American factory worker paid $40k a year, there are four Chinese/Indian/African factory workers being forced out on the street.

Likewise, fore every American factory worker forced out on the street, there are four Chinese/Indian/African factory workers who start making a living wage.


Why will the Chinese/Indian/African worker win? The alternative for the Chinese/Indian/African worker is severe poverty, possibly starvation. The alternative for the American worker is a welfare check that is bigger than the Chinese/Indian/African worker's entire paycheck.

Thus, the situation of blue-collar America will not improve, even as the economy recovers.

Yes.

Wally World stocks more cheap stuff than just about anyone else. Most of the crap is made off shore in Asia, or some other place where they can realize the highest profits. But, I don't hear the masses bitching about the lack of jobs. Most Americans are just to dumb to realize that their way of life is going to be changing for the worse and we are barely seeing the results of their apathy. Until Americans can stem the flow of US greenbacks down, and slow the tide of cheap off shore junk coming in, having Hamburger Helper may start to seem like a celebration.

I suspect we are going to see the standard of living, for blue collar workers, to plummet even deeper. In the meantime, these BCWs will stop at Wally Workd for a new Chinese flat screen so that they can look at their REALITY shows, basketball tournaments, etc at 1080p.

Wonderful.

Yes.

Why is buying goods at a good cheap prices dumb?

People make no sense sometimes.

True. It also makes no sense to insist on putting your own employer out of business with union greed.

Still trying to believe that the world is a zero sum game? It doesn't work this way.

Not exactly, but the truth is there regarding the point made. If a company can hire unskilled labor for $0.12/hr, it can hire 8 for $1.00/hr, sell their stuff at a low price to the guy that demanded $7.75/hr to do the same task.

The world economy game is being won by China.

About 80% of them have already.
For instance if we made cars without robots it would take 10X the manpower to produce what we now produce.
.

Actually, it's people who build the robots since not enough are being made to create an assembly line. It's people who make the precision parts the robots are made from. People who design the robots. People who are the technicians to maintain the robots. People who install and program the robots. People who design the parts the robots make.

All that takes "education". Something Republicans "mock". Odd that.

And of all that only the maintenance and perhaps the engineering is generally US provided.

As far as the workers maintaining and manufacturing the robots. A tech education is a must, but almost equally as important is experience. I did that type of work for a few years.

...and even if the maintenance and engineering is US provided, the personnel could be working for a foreign employer.

Actually, it's people who build the robots since not enough are being made to create an assembly line. It's people who make the precision parts the robots are made from. People who design the robots. People who are the technicians to maintain the robots. People who install and program the robots. People who design the parts the robots make.

All that takes "education". Something Republicans "mock". Odd that.

yes. anything that can be done without critical thinking can be programmed into a robot to do. since building a robot from peices doesn't require critical thinking, one day robots will build robots and then humans will only be needed for trouble shooting, designing, and programming them. I think those who have rejected science will finally realize their fautls at this point since there will be little jobs available for them. even more advanced jobs could be taken over by robots if AI continues to improve, and of course if robots become capable of learning on their own then humans are no longer needed at all.

computers can only be as smart as whomever is programming them.
But they are extremely accurate and consistent. Much better than humans for many jobs actually.

Call for computer tech support and you may be connected to someone willing to work for $0.12/hr searching through a FAQ manual...likely in India.

 

[antagon]

blue collar workers gone the way of the cotton-picking share cropper. gone are the goo-old days.

 

[editec]

they will be really screwed in the next 20-50 years as they are replaced by robots

Not just factory workers, either.

Eventually you'll be initially screened at the hospital by a computer program, too.

There is almost nothing that people can do that sooner or later a robot or computer program won't be able to do better and or cheaper.

And you know what that really means?

The end of capitalism as we know it.

Seriously, you cannot have capitalism when 80% or more of the population isn't employable because tecnology is doing the jobs they once did.

And no, this problem we're just now beginning to face is magnitudes larger in terms of disrupting our labor patterns than the industrial revolution ever was.

Because in that revolution, farming help went to work in factories. They STILL had jobs.

In the technolgical revolution, factory workers (and the mangament which once oversaw their work) and highly skilled workers (like Doctors, lawyers, and other professional INCLUDING SOFTWARE ENGINEERS) are going to find that they cannot compete with technology, and AI pprograms either.

Then how does our economic system work?

Do we continue to only reward those elements of our society who OWN the technology?

And who will be the consumers buying all this techologically made wealth when nobody has a job to make the money to buy it all, anyway?


Remember now, this problem is aleady starting to include highly educated people whose jobs are better done by machines and programs.

Should we let the majority of the society starve?

Our technology is going to change our economic system, folks.

Count on that.


And the transition from industrial capitalism to technology capitalism isn't going to be easy on the MAJORITY of us regardless of how well we educate ourselves.

 

[uscitizen]

Hmm some interesting points there editec.

 

[Ravi]

American blue-collar workers are screwed. Why?

The average world labourer increases their standard of living by out-competing American workers. They work harder and for less money, until they win their share of the industrial jobs.

In other words, for every American factory worker paid $40k a year, there are four Chinese/Indian/African factory workers being forced out on the street.

Likewise, fore every American factory worker forced out on the street, there are four Chinese/Indian/African factory workers who start making a living wage.


Why will the Chinese/Indian/African worker win? The alternative for the Chinese/Indian/African worker is severe poverty, possibly starvation. The alternative for the American worker is a welfare check that is bigger than the Chinese/Indian/African worker's entire paycheck.

Thus, the situation of blue-collar America will not improve, even as the economy recovers.

The big flaw in your premise is that welfare is a temporary, not a permanent, state of affairs. One doesn't go from a blue collar job onto permanent welfare.

Also, cost of living plays a big role. It is very cheap to live in the countries you've named by comparison.

 

[eagleseven]

The big flaw in your premise is that welfare is a temporary, not a permanent, state of affairs. One doesn't go from a blue collar job onto permanent welfare.

In which case, American blue-collar jobs will pay whatever Chinese workers are paid (about $15k/year). It still results in a net loss for American labor, and a larger net gain for Chinese labor.

But what about minimum wage laws, you say? Minimum wage laws will artificially raise American salaries, at the cost of permanent unemployment.

Also, cost of living plays a big role. It is very cheap to live in the countries you've named by comparison.

This is included in the standard of living analysis. Purchasing power parity (PPP) allows you to directly compare the wages in two different countries in terms of what those wages will buy, as opposed to an arbitrary amount of currency.

This slightly modifies the numbers, but it doesn't change the fundamental dynamic at work.

 

[uscitizen]

Cost of living is lower, but at a much lower level of comfort too.

 

[editec]

eagleseven

Quod Erat Demonstrandum
Member #19955
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 3,167
Thanks: 181
Thanked 484 Times in 329 Posts
Rep Power: 74

I don't know what is going to happen, in the long run. Humans' only advantage over machines is our creativity.

(sorry..cannot get the quote function to work)

As we can now plainly see thanls to Youtube and the rest of the internet, creativity in humans isn't all that rare.

We can see people who are amazinginly talented who will never make any money for their talents.

So even assuming we are all Michelanglo's, our creativity doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as making a living.

We're either going to change the way we reward people, or we're going to end up with a huge percentage of the population who cannot find work that they can do, that anybody will pay them to do.

Those of you who are sitting back thinking your skills are so special that they cannot be done by AI programs and or robots are in for a BIG SHOCK.

That is EXACTLY what skilled industrial machninists used to tell me, too. That their jobs reqired so much training and experience that they could never be replaced, either.

They are mostly now unemployed, (well many of them are retired, but nobody replaced them at the lathes, either) working at McJobs and trying to cope with their losses in incomes.

 

[uscitizen]

Also did you know that below a certain geographical latitude in China home heating is not allowed.

 

[eagleseven]

Those of you who are sitting back thinking your skills are so special that they cannot be done by AI programs and or robots are in for a BIG SHOCK.

Can a human produce an AI that is more intelligent, in every measure, than himself?

If he cannot, his job is secure.

If he can, we ought to be welcoming our robot overlords.

 

[DiamondDave]

they will be really screwed in the next 20-50 years as they are replaced by robots

About 80% of them have already.
For instance if we made cars without robots it would take 10X the manpower to produce what we now produce.
.

Actually, it's people who build the robots since not enough are being made to create an assembly line. It's people who make the precision parts the robots are made from. People who design the robots. People who are the technicians to maintain the robots. People who install and program the robots. People who design the parts the robots make.

All that takes "education". Something Republicans "mock". Odd that.

No, idiot.. it takes training.. it takes advancing your own skills... not a piece of paper from a college or a bunch of college classes

But nice try

 

[uscitizen]

Those of you who are sitting back thinking your skills are so special that they cannot be done by AI programs and or robots are in for a BIG SHOCK.

Can a human produce an AI that is more intelligent, in every measure, than himself?

If he cannot, his job is secure.

If he can, we ought to be welcoming our robot overlords.

Yes, but some humans can create something that is above a lot of the "average" people.

robot overloards. Hmm kind of hard to suck up to a logical machine.

 

[Barb]

they will be really screwed in the next 20-50 years as they are replaced by robots

Not just factory workers, either.

Eventually you'll be initially screened at the hospital by a computer program, too.

There is almost nothing that people can do that sooner or later a robot or computer program won't be able to do better and or cheaper.

And you know what that really means?

The end of capitalism as we know it.

Seriously, you cannot have capitalism when 80% or more of the population isn't employable because tecnology is doing the jobs they once did.

And no, this problem we're just now beginning to face is magnitudes larger in terms of disrupting our labor patterns than the industrial revolution ever was.

Because in that revolution, farming help went to work in factories. They STILL had jobs.

In the technolgical revolution, factory workers (and the mangament which once oversaw their work) and highly skilled workers (like Doctors, lawyers, and other professional INCLUDING SOFTWARE ENGINEERS) are going to find that they cannot compete with technology, and AI pprograms either.

Then how does our economic system work?

Do we continue to only reward those elements of our society who OWN the technology?

And who will be the consumers buying all this techologically made wealth when nobody has a job to make the money to buy it all, anyway?


Remember now, this problem is aleady starting to include highly educated people whose jobs are better done by machines and programs.

Should we let the majority of the society starve?

Our technology is going to change our economic system, folks.

Count on that.


And the transition from industrial capitalism to technology capitalism isn't going to be easy on the MAJORITY of us regardless of how well we educate ourselves.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/End-Work-Jeremy-Rifkin/dp/0874778247]Amazon.com: The End of Work (9780874778243): Jeremy Rifkin: Books[/ame]

Part of something I wrote in 2007:

Our culture, our “protestant work ethic”, and outright dishonesty by our media and government make those left behind in the current economic times feel like scofflaws to their upbringing. Our media offers no accurate accounting of the job market, or how military enlistment and even our prison population lower unemployment statistics while contributing to the increase of unemployment. Military enlistment included with civilian employment misleadingly lowers our unemployment statistics by a full percent, and ignores the fact that without the current war, U.S. service people would be home seeking jobs instead of facing death and dismemberment in a protracted war that enriches the elitist class at their expense. The most dramatic decrease in statistical unemployment, realized by omitting our prison population, cuts a full five percent (Finn, no date). These exclusions cut the actual unemployment rate in half, perpetuating the idea that there is a promising job market to find work in if the idle would only work.

The Idle do work though, many at .21 cents an hour in our prisons. Servicing big business in 36 states as clothing manufacturers, telemarketers, office machine repair people, commercial laundry workers, and a host of other jobs both high and low tech, convicts have netted big business millions in profits while costing thousands of jobs. Sadly, instead of fighting for decent working conditions, the right to strike without facing penal backlash, and better pay for our prisoners, the current victims of the U.S. slave market faces the worst of the criticism from our labor unions, instead of the corporations and state governments that allow this exploitation (Baker and Whyte, 2000).

Jeremy Rifkin (2004) describes two worlds that are possible after the technological revolution eliminates the need for human labor. There is no question but that the end of work as we know it is near an end, as corporations replace human industry with automation, computerized voice technology, and data systems. That the capital used to develop these labor saving and job ending technologies comes directly from labor’s own retirement investments is a cruel joke on a society that commonly believes that industry investment is industry’s alone (Rifkin, 2004, pgs. 227-228). A better understanding of where investment money comes from might make society understand that layoff notices are not an acceptable return.

What world will be the result of the advances in the “third revolution” (Rifkin, 2004, introduction), the technological revolution? One situation might be global upheaval and suffering on a scale the world has never known. Billions of people out of work, those who profited most from the technological revolution will live behind gated communities, and gains made by the new technologies spent on security services to keep them safe from the suffering masses. A glance around might suggest that choice already made. We have gated communities located away from the misery caused by unemployment. Poverty and addiction have followed each other through countless eras and various cultures, and crime is ever their illegitimate child.

When people frighten us, we have prisons to lock them away. The profit motive in our penal system is not merely in the convict slave market mentioned earlier, but also in the housing and penal code that produces both. Corporations housing convicts seek profit in the buying of influence and the promotion of fear (Smith, 1993). There are other choices.

One idea Rifkin has is growth of a little heralded but a vastly active section of society identified as the third sector. This area offers society its best hope of taking control of destiny. The social contract between society and government is not working. The language we use to define our place in society has changed in ways that make previous terms inadequate. An arrangement Rifkin proposes uses non-profits, interest organizations, advocacy groups, health organizations, and community groups large and small to fill the gaping holes government has torn in our social fabric. Instead of imploring government to ensure social justice or industry to offer opportunity, the private sector can organize and implement solutions independent of governments, directing those solutions and steering society towards a sustainable future (Rifkin, 2004, pgs.236- 248).

This thought has wide potential for appeal from all parts of the political spectrum, but more importantly, it could work. While various administrations have proposed the idea in the past, it had more to do with abdicating their own responsibility; matching the rhetoric with financial support has not usually been the case. Fully realized though, the third sector could grow beyond the need for government help, media input, or industry interference. People would once again steer their own course, rendering industry something we use, instead of an entity that enslaves us (Rifkin, 2004, pgs. 249-274).

Another poster here recently woke up an older thread that had to do with food cooperatives, and the government repression of the one she was familiar with. That was an example of the "third sector," an example that bears replication and defense.