"Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts"

Redfish

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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
 

Flopper

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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
Of the patients with covid-19 that died, 24% had no underlying health conditions so I think it's safe to say that they did no have one foot in the grave.
 

Ray From Cleveland

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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
Of the patients with covid-19 that died, 24% had no underlying health conditions so I think it's safe to say that they did no have one foot in the grave.
Plus if it's somebody close to you that has one foot in the grave, that changes things. I just found out my Uncle has it. He's 95 and doesn't go anywhere, but he has care takers coming in all the time. My father was with him when they took him to the hospital, and now he's quarantined for 11 more days. Pop is 88 and has plenty of medical problems as it is.
 

Flopper

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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
Of the patients with covid-19 that died, 24% had no underlying health conditions so I think it's safe to say that they did no have one foot in the grave.
Plus if it's somebody close to you that has one foot in the grave, that changes things. I just found out my Uncle has it. He's 95 and doesn't go anywhere, but he has care takers coming in all the time. My father was with him when they took him to the hospital, and now he's quarantined for 11 more days. Pop is 88 and has plenty of medical problems as it is.
Most people do at those ages. Just because a person is old and has medical conditions, does not mean they are at deaths doorstep. Often people that are younger make those kind of assumptions. My grandfather had COPD and a heart condition most his life and he lived to 94. He was driving until a year before his death. He had an aid come in once a day to help him but he was pretty independent until about 3 months before he died.

A lot of people imply that covid deaths are not that important because the patients are old and sick and going to die soon anyway. I think that is really terrible, first because it's callus and second because it's often not true. Probably the greatest advances in medicine over the last 50 years has been increasing the quality of life for older Americans. Where it was once very rare to find people in their 80's, leading a productive and enjoyable life, but not today.
 
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Ray From Cleveland

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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
Of the patients with covid-19 that died, 24% had no underlying health conditions so I think it's safe to say that they did no have one foot in the grave.
Plus if it's somebody close to you that has one foot in the grave, that changes things. I just found out my Uncle has it. He's 95 and doesn't go anywhere, but he has care takers coming in all the time. My father was with him when they took him to the hospital, and now he's quarantined for 11 more days. Pop is 88 and has plenty of medical problems as it is.
Most people do at those ages. Just because a person is old and has medical conditions, does not mean they are at deaths doorstep. Often people that are younger make those kind of assumptions. My grandfather had COPD and a heart condition most his life and he lived to 94. He was driving until a year before his death. He had an aid come in once a day to help him but he was pretty independent until about 3 months before he died.

A lot of people imply that covid deaths are not that important because the patients are old and sick and going to die soon anyway. I think that is really terrible, first because it's callus and second because it's often not true. Probably the greatest advances in medicine over the last 50 years has been increasing the quality of life for older Americans. Where it was once very rare to find people in their 80's, leading a productive and enjoyable life, but not today.
Thank you Flopper, I appreciate your kind words. It's been three days and he says he's never felt better. The doctor recommended he not take a test. He said if he actually caught it, he would know something by the fifth or sixth day, so my fingers are crossed and hopefully my prayers heard.

By that time, a test would show true results unlike if he took one today. It would likely show negative since the virus would not be detectible this quickly. However the doctor also stated he would order a test by the end of the week just to ease my fathers concerns.
 

Flopper

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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
Of the patients with covid-19 that died, 24% had no underlying health conditions so I think it's safe to say that they did no have one foot in the grave.
Plus if it's somebody close to you that has one foot in the grave, that changes things. I just found out my Uncle has it. He's 95 and doesn't go anywhere, but he has care takers coming in all the time. My father was with him when they took him to the hospital, and now he's quarantined for 11 more days. Pop is 88 and has plenty of medical problems as it is.
Most people do at those ages. Just because a person is old and has medical conditions, does not mean they are at deaths doorstep. Often people that are younger make those kind of assumptions. My grandfather had COPD and a heart condition most his life and he lived to 94. He was driving until a year before his death. He had an aid come in once a day to help him but he was pretty independent until about 3 months before he died.

A lot of people imply that covid deaths are not that important because the patients are old and sick and going to die soon anyway. I think that is really terrible, first because it's callus and second because it's often not true. Probably the greatest advances in medicine over the last 50 years has been increasing the quality of life for older Americans. Where it was once very rare to find people in their 80's, leading a productive and enjoyable life, but not today.
Thank you Flopper, I appreciate your kind words. It's been three days and he says he's never felt better. The doctor recommended he not take a test. He said if he actually caught it, he would know something by the fifth or sixth day, so my fingers are crossed and hopefully my prayers heard.

By that time, a test would show true results unlike if he took one today. It would likely show negative since the virus would not be detectible this quickly. However the doctor also stated he would order a test by the end of the week just to ease my fathers concerns.
If he develops the symptoms, he should get the test. I've discovered long ago that knowing is always better than not knowing because if you live in fear you die a thousand deaths.
 

Ray From Cleveland

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Joined
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Messages
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I bet ANYTHING Trump was one of them who was against them, too, just like he is masks.

Before face masks, Americans went to war against seat belts
  • A small but vocal minority of people in the US are protesting face-mask mandates.
  • In the early 1980s, the public-safety battle was over seat belts. Most Americans didn't use them, and 65% opposed them being enforced by law.
  • "There was a libertarian streak among resistors," car-safety pioneer Ralph Nader told Business Insider. "They took the stance that 'you're not going to tie the American people up in seat belts.'"
  • More than 50 years after "Unsafe at Any Speed," Nader said, "We are a very hard society to change cognitively.""""

So let's take the politics out of this mask thing and get healthy again!
Protect yourself, protect your friends and take your tip from the scientists and docs!
both should be up to the individual. Mandating personal behavior never works, depriving people of individual freedom is unconstitutional.

and don't give me the BS about the "common good" that phrase was used by Hitler and Mao before the murdered millions and brainwashed millions more.
If you don't like "common good", how about community consciousness.

equally stupid. How about individual freedom and responsibility?
Your freedom to not wear a mask should end within 6 feet of others. It should be your responsibility as a member of your community to do what you can to stop the spread of a diaereses in an epidemic. There should be no need for laws and enforcement. However, about 20% of the people in the US will refuse to wear masks because they just don't give a shit about others or they feel it's their right to say no. This is the kind of issue that gives strength to the argument that democracy is the enemy of the people.
By the end of this week, our total amount of people who had this thing will be about 4 million. None of those people need a mask now since it's very unlikely they will ever get it again, yet alone spread it. Plus God knows how many had it that we never accounted for since our testing was so poor at the beginning, and doctors couldn't determine if Covid was the cause of reported illnesses.

I found out a friend of mine had it when she posted it on Facebook. I commented on her post. She told me she thought it was her annual sinus problems that she gets in summer. If not for the headaches, she would have never went to the doctor. I'm sure there are millions like my friend; symptoms so minor it's not worth seeking medical attention for. Whatever it is, they just ride it out until they feel better.
There is no scientific evidence that testing positive provides you with any immunity and if it does, that immunity may only last a few weeks. Since the population is about 330 million and 4 million have tested positive that leaves 326 million left. This does not support your claim that the 4 million nor any of the 326 million should not be wearing masks.

Whether you have symptoms or not, if you test positive for covid 19, you have the virus and you can transmit it to others regardless of whether you have symptoms or not. This is why we ask such people to quarantine. About half of the people that report no symptoms when they are tested later developed symptoms. In most cases those symptom are similar to the flu and a few days in bed and they are able to function normally. However, 20% of those that test positive, regardless of whether they have symptoms at that time or not, they require hospitalization.
I wear a mask, but if I were able to get the antibody test, and found out I had it at some point, I wouldn't wear a mask at all. While we don't have the evidence to support getting it will make you immune, they are basing that theory on similar viruses. If you get the flu one year, you will not get it again that season unless there are other strains still out there. The reason one recovers from such a virus is because once you get it, your body builds antibodies to fight it. Those antibodies will not go away. They will stay with you for the rest of your life.

So lets say we found out that 20 million people got this thing, most of which we never knew about, and we also find that .5% got it again. Is that any reason to make all 20 million wear masks?
Immunity to a virus is not guaranteed by having antibodies. The duration of any immunity can stretch from just a few weeks to a life time depending on the virus and antibody response. Also, understand that immunity due to having antibodies is not 100% effective. Just as vaccines typically run from about 40% to 80% effective so does antibodies from a previous infection. Another factor that determines whether you are successful in fighting off the virus is your bodies ability to create T cells (white bood cells that fight off diseases). It is not so simple as just getting infected or getting a vaccine and you're fully protected. It just doesn't work that way.

The bottom line is being previously infected with the virus or being inoculated with a vaccine will not guaranteed that you will not get infected. The good news is that having the antibodies in your system gives you a leg up in fighting the disease which usually means a less serious case.

In regard to getting a positive antibody test and dumping the mask, having antibodies to the virus that causes COVID-19 may provide protection from getting infected with the virus again. If it does, we do not know how much protection the antibodies may provide or how long this protection may last, thus you should wear the mask because you could spread the virus.

The greatest protection occurs by reaching herd immunity because the virus will not have enough available hosts to survive. The likelihood of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future is not good because surveys are showing that only 50% Americans will be vaccinated.
What vaccines do is the same thing the virus itself does: get you to create antibodies. Guaranteed? Nothing is guaranteed. But as I stated earlier, by the end of this week, over 4 million Americans (that we know of) will have had this thing. Even if 1,000 got it again, is that enough to make all the other 4 million wear masks?

There may be some people that get enjoyment out of wearing a mask in public, particularly criminals, but as for most of us, we feel a huge loss in freedom. Some are more patient than others. Others refused to comply with masks and still do. Some believe that wearing a mask for a long period of time also creates health risks There are people who believe the Covid numbers are over counted. Some feel under counted. Many of us believe the Covid deaths were not actually caused by the virus itself, but because they had it when they died, it's listed as a Covid death. Then of course we can't ignore the political factor in all this either. With the previous administration, we've all seen just how underhanded politics and power can get.
I think the point you are missing is that we have no scientific evidence to base a conclusion that having developed antibodies affords any long term protection form the virus. Typically immunity declines with time. Immunity can fade rapidly or last many years. We simple do not know and probably won't for at least a year or so how long immunity from the antibodies lasts and how effective it is at preventing the virus. Without that information, the CDC is not going to recommend unmasking because you have antibodies.

In regard to over counting covid 19 deaths, I disagree. First, no one gets admitted to a covid ward without a positive covid 19 test and blood tests that shows markers of the disease. Second, When you are admitted to a covid word, you will almost surely be given a CT Scan which will show clearly whether the virus is present in the lungs. If you die without the presence of virus in the lungs you will not be recorded as a Covid 19 death even thou the virus is in your body. So just because you are in a Covid ward and you die does not necessary mean you will be recorded as a covid 19 death.

I believe the number of covid 19 cases have been under counted. A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine which has been accepted by American Institute of health concluded that a substantial number of deaths caused by covid 19 were never confirmed. The 781,000 total deaths in the United States in the three months through May 30 were about 122,300, or nearly 19% higher, than what would normally be expected, according to the researchers. Of the 122,300 excess deaths, 95,235 were attributed to Covid-19. This means there maybe an under count by as much as 29%.

There are a number of possible reasons for this under count. People with terminal disease that die at home are not usually tested for covid 19. However, the more likely source lies in the assumption that covid 19 has to be in the lungs to cause death. In the last few months we've found that some people that have died with heart attacks and kidney failure had very significant covid 19 infections in the heart or kidneys which could be responsible for their death, however they were not listed as a covid death.
I believe in the beginning there was undercounting because of the inability to provide ample supplies of testing. Now that we do have supplies, the more people you test, the more you are going to find that have it.

Plenty of places are reporting deaths that didn't have anything to do with Covid, such as that guy on a motorcycle in Florida who killed himself in an accident, yet when they took his blood, found Covid and listed it as a Covid death. Remember that President Trump promised all health providers federal reimbursement for costs related to treating Covid patients. Hospitals and clinics are taking full advantage of that.
I find only anecdotal evidence of over counting. However, under counting is a very plausible explanation for large increase in the number of deaths beginning in March not reported as covid deaths. Your accusation that hospitals are over reporting is not true because it is the attending physician that determining the cause of death. Falsifying death certificates gains the doctor nothing but a chance of being brought up on charges of falsifying death certificates. The instructions for recording covid 19 deaths are very specific and leave little room for playing games.
Nobody actually dies from Covid-19, just like nobody actually dies from a gunshot wound, or a car accident, or falling off of a cliff. Those are what is referred to as "contributing factors."

When the death certificate is issued, it usually lists the organ failure or condition that caused the death. Covid is considered as a contributing factor, even if you had a heart attack that had nothing to do with the virus.

A very close friend of mine died about 5 years ago. He was a person with a heart condition, but also an alcoholic. He and his wife got into their usual fight while he was on vacation from work. She left to stay at her daughters. They found him a few days later. His death certificate read he died from natural causes, even though he drank enough to kill a horse and his heart was twice the size for a normal human human heart.
Mostly correct.
If for example a person dies of coronary thrombosis or pulmonary failure then that will be listed as cause of the death. Under contributing factors, the order of items listed is important. First item under contributing factors is the underlying cause of death. Underlying cause of death is defined as the disease or injury that initiated the train of events leading directly to death. IF Covid 19 is so listed then it will be reported to the State Dept. of Health and the CDC as a Covid 19 death.

In your example, if organ failure were listed as a cause of death and the person has a heart attack and also has Covid 19, the question of whether to list Covid 19 or the heart attack as the underlying cause depends of which factor initiated the train of events which lead to the death. For example it a person with Covid 19 is in an Covid ward with little or no respiratory distress and has a heart attack, Covid 19 would not be listed as the underlying cause and thus not be recorded as covid 19 death.

In the vast number of cases determining, the cause of death and the underlying cause of the death is very straight forward. Covid 19 lungs are usually so severely involved with pathology that they are two to three times or more the normal weight of a normal lung which means they can not supply sufficient oxygen to prevent organ failure. This of course would show in a CT Scan. Of course there will always be a small percent of the deaths where underlying cause of death is debatable. This occurs most often when a person dies outside the hospital and there is no attending physician.
The way I understand it is everything possible is listed as a contributing cause. In most cases autopsies are not ordered. Even before Covid, less than 20% of our dead ever had an autopsy.

So it's really a guess sort of speak of what the patient actually died from. But from what I"ve read, if Covid is a contributing cause (since it's never the primary cause) then that's what they consider a Covid death.

What they are doing is over-exciting the public and the politicians are following right along. Yes, we have more cases, but we also are doing much more testing than before. With a phone call to our doctor, you or I could get a test tomorrow if we wanted. It wasn't like that at the beginning.

So what I would like to know is, how many of these 140,000 actually died because of Covid. A 330 lbs heart failure patient is different than a 140 lbs heart failure patient who exercises and takes care of themselves. If they both died with Covid, then it's likely the 140 lbs patient actually did, whereas the 330 lbs patient likely didn't.
Only in very rare cases, is it a guess. 88% of the people that die with Covid 19 were on ventilators. 9% of those that died qualified for a ventilator. You are not put of a ventilator unless you are experiencing respiratory failure, which is by far the most common immediate cause of death for people fighting covid 19. This means about 94% of hospital deaths in covid wards have an underlying cause of death listed as covid 19, not heart disease, diabetes, obesity, ect.

BTW All death certificates are the not the same. They all have a line for immediate cause of death. Some certificate have serial lines for other factors. The first line being underlying cause of death. On other certificates, the underlying cause is listed separately from other factors. My brother death certificate, who died with a brain cancer had an immediate cause of death as brain herniation. The underlying cause was a brain cancer. Other factors listed were age, diabetes, etc.

the fact remains and it is a sad fact, the vast majority of people who have died of covid already had one foot in the grave. Healthy people of all ages have virtually nothing to worry about from covid
Of the patients with covid-19 that died, 24% had no underlying health conditions so I think it's safe to say that they did no have one foot in the grave.
Plus if it's somebody close to you that has one foot in the grave, that changes things. I just found out my Uncle has it. He's 95 and doesn't go anywhere, but he has care takers coming in all the time. My father was with him when they took him to the hospital, and now he's quarantined for 11 more days. Pop is 88 and has plenty of medical problems as it is.
Most people do at those ages. Just because a person is old and has medical conditions, does not mean they are at deaths doorstep. Often people that are younger make those kind of assumptions. My grandfather had COPD and a heart condition most his life and he lived to 94. He was driving until a year before his death. He had an aid come in once a day to help him but he was pretty independent until about 3 months before he died.

A lot of people imply that covid deaths are not that important because the patients are old and sick and going to die soon anyway. I think that is really terrible, first because it's callus and second because it's often not true. Probably the greatest advances in medicine over the last 50 years has been increasing the quality of life for older Americans. Where it was once very rare to find people in their 80's, leading a productive and enjoyable life, but not today.
Thank you Flopper, I appreciate your kind words. It's been three days and he says he's never felt better. The doctor recommended he not take a test. He said if he actually caught it, he would know something by the fifth or sixth day, so my fingers are crossed and hopefully my prayers heard.

By that time, a test would show true results unlike if he took one today. It would likely show negative since the virus would not be detectible this quickly. However the doctor also stated he would order a test by the end of the week just to ease my fathers concerns.
If he develops the symptoms, he should get the test. I've discovered long ago that knowing is always better than not knowing because if you live in fear you die a thousand deaths.
The first thing he did was call his doctor to see if a test can be arranged. The doctor told him it was useless since it would come out negative whether he had it or not. It takes 5 to 7 days of having it to get accurate results. His suggestion was that if he didn't feel any discomfort, any drastic change of food, it's likely he didn't catch it. However, he also said if my father wanted to get it over with, he will arrange a test in a week from when he was exposed to give him some peace of mind even if he doesn't experience any symptoms.
 

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