AWOL Bush

[nakedemperor]

Okay so during the Vietnam War George W. Bush used his father's influence to skip a 100+ man waiting list to enter into the Texas National Guard. That's fine, it happens in University Admissions, whatever (except the people who don't get into the universities don't have to risk getting drafted and sent to vietnam where 300+ people are dying a week, at some points). After completing training, Bush requested and immediately recieved a transfer to an Alabama Guard unity in May, 1972. But he never showed up for duty, according to Dannelly Air Force Base commander and the commander's assistant. Military records show that Bush's commanding officers back in Texas reported he did not show up for duty there either for a year. Officially, the period between May 72 and May 73 remains unaccounted for because of missing records.

So here's why I posted this in the War on Terror thread: shouldn't a war-time president be scrutinized when there is LOTS of reason to believe he deserted during a time of war? I mean, AT LEAST find SOMEONE, a pilot, officer, janitor, ANYONE, who corroborates this claim. But he and the RNC haven't been able to do that. Why can't he address this issue difinitively.

Where were you in 72? Apparently the pres doesn't remember.

 

[Annie]

Okay so during the Vietnam War George W. Bush used his father's influence to skip a 100+ man waiting list to enter into the Texas National Guard. That's fine, it happens in University Admissions, whatever (except the people who don't get into the universities don't have to risk getting drafted and sent to vietnam where 300+ people are dying a week, at some points). After completing training, Bush requested and immediately recieved a transfer to an Alabama Guard unity in May, 1972. But he never showed up for duty, according to Dannelly Air Force Base commander and the commander's assistant. Military records show that Bush's commanding officers back in Texas reported he did not show up for duty there either for a year. Officially, the period between May 72 and May 73 remains unaccounted for because of missing records.

So here's why I posted this in the War on Terror thread: shouldn't a war-time president be scrutinized when there is LOTS of reason to believe he deserted during a time of war? I mean, AT LEAST find SOMEONE, a pilot, officer, janitor, ANYONE, who corroborates this claim. But he and the RNC haven't been able to do that. Why can't he address this issue difinitively.

Where were you in 72? Apparently the pres doesn't remember.

Well, your choice of where to post this, was incorrect. Moving to political

 

[dmp]

bush didn't LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

And in the Reserves/Guard, AWOL isn't that big of a deal.

 

[freeandfun1]

Dude, I spent nearly two year in the NG after serving nearly 8 years active duty and I cannot remember one name of the guys I served with. Not one. We only met once a month for about 12 hours a day (we were allowed to go home at night unless we were "in the field". So I don't find it all that unusual that somebody might not remember somebody from their NG days. A matter-of-fact, I can hardly remember the names of 2/3 of the people I served with during Desert Shield/Storm and we were together 24 hours a day for nearly a year. Once one gets out of the military, oft times (not always) they prefer to put those days behind them and move forward in life. So again, I am not all that surprised somebody doesn't remember a weekend or two of guard service.

 

[Annie]

Not awol! I'm sick of debunking this. Demos must really be nervous about the swiftboat vets!

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=131

Bush A Military “Deserter?” Calm Down, Michael
Clark backer Michael Moore calls President Bush a “deserter” for missing Air National Guard drills 31 years ago. Puh-lease!

January 23, 2004
Modified: February 11, 2004
eMail to a friend Printer Friendly Version

Summary



This one has been around since Bush’s campaign against Al Gore, when a Boston Globe story appeared saying the newspaper could find no record of Bush attending required Air National Guard drills for a full year in 1972-73. Bush says he missed some weekend drills during the period in question, but attended others and later attended extra drills to make up for those he missed. Several news organizations looked into the matter and reached mixed conclusions.

Websites devoted to criticizing Bush have kept the matter under discussion on the Internet ever since. It surfaced again when Michael Moore, the populist author and movie and TV producer, called Bush a “deserter” at a rally supporting retired Gen. Wesley Clark in New Hampshire. Clark then said during a debate that “I think Michael Moore has the right to say whatever he feels about this.”

The fact is Bush was honorably discharged without ever being officially accused of desertion or being away without official leave.

(Note: On Feb. 10 Bush released previously undisclosed payroll and personnel records covering his service in 1973-73. See our separate article.)


Analysis



"The Top 5%"

After graduating from Yale in 1968, Bush escaped conscription and possible combat duty in the then-raging Vietnam War by getting into the Texas Air National Guard. During the next four years Bush served the equivalent of 21 months on active duty, according to the Globe account, including more than a year of flight training. The Globe quoted Bush’s flight instructor, retired Col. Maurice H. Udell, as saying "I would rank him in the top 5 percent of pilots I knew.”

The Globe also said:

Those who trained and flew with Bush . . . said he was among the best pilots in the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron. In the 22-month period between the end of his flight training and his move to Alabama, Bush logged numerous hours of duty, well above the minimum requirements for so-called "weekend warriors."

"Began to Disappear"

But the Globe said Bush “began to disappear from the Guard’s radar screen” with two years still to run on his six-year commitment, giving up flying for good in 1972. Bush moved from Houston to Alabama in May of 1972 to take part in the unsuccessful Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount. Bush was supposed to report for duty at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery Alabama. But the unit’s commander at the time, retired Gen. William Turnipseed, was quoted by several news organizations as saying he had no recollection of Bush showing up. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered," the Globe quoted him saying.

The Globe quoted Bush as saying through his spokesman Dan Bartlett that he did recall reporting for non-flying duty in Alabama, performing “odds and ends” under supervisors whose names he could not recall.

"I Fulfilled My Obligations"

Bush himself later was quoted directly by the Dallas Morning News as admitting he missed some weekend drills while in Alabama, but saying he made them up afterward:

"I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time," he said. "I made up some missed weekends."

"I can't remember what I did, but I wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes. I fulfilled my obligations."

Records are lacking for that period. However, The Associated Press quoted two friends who worked with Bush in the Blount campaign as saying they recall him attending Air National Guard drills in Alabama. Joe Holcombe, described as a former Republican county chairman in Alabama, was quoted as saying, "It was pretty well-known that he was in the Guard while we worked on the campaign." And Emily Marks, who said she had dated Bush during the campaign, was quoted saying, "He told us that he was having to do his Guard duty in Alabama while he worked on the campaign." (Note: The AP originally gave the woman's name as Emily Martin, but later corrected that to Emily Marks.)

Bush returned to Houston after the campaign, but never resumed flying. He spent 36 days on duty back in Houston in May, June and July of 1973, the Globe reported. Spokesman Bartlett told FactCheck.org that Bush made up for weekend drills he was too busy to attend in Alabama. "The bottom line is he met his minimum requirments for that year," Bartlett said.

Bush requested and was granted special permission to end his six-year hitch eight months early. He was released in October 1973 to to allow him to attend Harvard Business School.

Reporters Dig In

After the Globe story, partisan websites denounced Bush as “AWOL” and worse. One is even named AwolBush.com . But other news organizations dug in and came to much milder conclusions.

George Magazine reported in October of 2000:

It's time to set the record straight . . . . Bush may have received favorable treatment to get into the Guard, served irregularly after the spring of 1972 and got an expedited discharge, but he did accumulate the days of service required of him for his ultimate honorable discharge.

The New York Times reported Nov. 3, 2000:

But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns (about Bush’s absence) may be unfounded . . . . A review by The Times showed that after a seven-month gap, he appeared for duty in late November 1972 at least through July 1973.

The Washington Post also reviewed records and concluded:

It is safe to say that Bush did very light duty in his last two years in the Guard and that his superiors made it easy for him.

Some Democratic partisans have taken a much harsher view.

Democrats.com , a website that sells “Impeach Bush Now” bumper stickers, posted a rebuttal to the George Magazine piece saying “There is no credible evidence that Bush ever reported for duty for the last two years of his military obligation” and suggested “substance abuse as the most likely explanation.”

Michael Moore: "General vs. Deserter"

Michael Moore, in his bestselling book Stupid White Men, included an open letter to President Bush calling him "a possible felon, an unconvicted deserter, and a crybaby."

Moore took it even further during a New Hampshire rally for Clark Jan. 17, predicting Clark would face Bush in the general election. “I want to see that debate, the general versus the deserter,” Moore said with Clark looking on.

Moore ’s "deserter" remark prompted ABC News Anchor Peter Jennings to confront Clark at a Democratic candidates debate Jan. 22:

Jennings: Now, that's a reckless charge not supported by the facts. And I was curious to know why you didn't contradict him . . .

Clark: Well, I think Michael Moore has the right to say whatever he feels about this.I don't know whether this is supported by the facts or not. I've never looked at it. I've seen this charge bandied about a lot. But to me it wasn't material . . .

Jennings: Since this question and answer in which you and Mr. Moore was involved in, you've had a chance to look at the facts. Do you still feel comfortable with the fact that someone should be standing up in your presence and calling the president of the United States a deserter?

Clark: To be honest with you, I did not look at the facts, Peter. You know, that's Michael Moore's opinion. He's entitled to say that. I've seen -- he's not the only person who's said that. I've not followed up on those facts. And frankly, it's not relevant to me and why I'm in this campaign.

Clark ’s reluctance to contradict Moore was criticized the next day by the newspaper that started it all, the Boston Globe, which said in an editorial:

News reports, including some in the Globe , have questioned Bush's constancy as a National Guard airman at the time, but he has not been credibly accused of desertion, a serious charge. Clark should have distanced himself from the remark.


Sources



Walter V. Robinson “One-year gap in Bush’s Guard duty : No records of airman at drills in 1972-73,” Boston Globe 23 May 2000: A1.

Wayne Slater "Records of Bush's Ala. Military Service Can't Be Found," Dallas Morning News 26 June 2000: A6.

The Associated Press "Friends from Alabama days back Bush's military claims," Houston Chronicle 5 July 2000: A17.

Peter Keating and Karthik Thyagarajan “The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either ,” George Magazine October 2000.

Jo Thomas “The 2000 Campaign: Military Service; Bush’s Guard attendance is Questioned and Defended,” New York Times 3 Nov. 2000: A27.

Bob Fertik “George Magazine is Wrong,” Democrats.com website, no date given.

George Lardner Jr.; Howard Kurtz “2 Democrats: Bush Let Guard Down; Gore Surrogates Revive Issue of Apparent Laxity in Candidate's Military Service,” The Washington Post 3 Nov. 2000 : A22.

Eric Slater, “Clark Showcases Mixed Bag of Backers in New Hampshire ;Filmmakers, former Clinton advisors and others stump for the Democratic hopeful” Los Angeles Times 18 Jan. 2004: A23.

“Answers Beat Questions,” Boston Globe editorial 23 Jan. 2004.


Related Articles
New Evidence Supports Bush Military Service (Mostly)
Newly released records reflect payments and credits for Air National Guard service meeting minimum requirements, despite a six-month gap.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

"shouldn't a war-time president be scrutinized when there is LOTS of reason to believe he deserted during a time of war?"

Bush hasn't been scrutinized on this? This dead horse has been beaten to the point that it is now glue.

Other than that, you don't have all your facts straight, you provide nothing new, and you don't provide any facts, just speculation and accusation. The FACTS point to George W. Bush completing his service in the Guard and getting an honorable discharge. The FACT of the matter is that in 1972, as the war was drawing to a close, it was not unusual for Guard duty to be changed, rescheduled, or dismissed altogether.

Now, what FACT can you provide that Bush was AWOL?

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

Dude, I spent nearly two year in the NG after serving nearly 8 years active duty and I cannot remember one name of the guys I served with. Not one. We only met once a month for about 12 hours a day (we were allowed to go home at night unless we were "in the field". So I don't find it all that unusual that somebody might not remember somebody from their NG days. A matter-of-fact, I can hardly remember the names of 2/3 of the people I served with during Desert Shield/Storm and we were together 24 hours a day for nearly a year. Once one gets out of the military, oft times (not always) they prefer to put those days behind them and move forward in life. So again, I am not all that surprised somebody doesn't remember a weekend or two of guard service.

That's a good point. I remember a name here and a name there, but only one or two of the people I was friendliest with stand out. There was a guy named Cappeletti, but couldn't tell you his first name to save my life.

 

[MtnBiker]

No reply nakedemporer?

 

[5stringJeff]

No reply nakedemporer?

Maybe he realized where he left his clothes...?

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

No reply nakedemporer?

Of course not. He just went to another area and posted the same crap with the same argument under a different subject line.

Then again, when a thread is moved, is the person that started it notified? Maybe he can't find them.

 

[Annie]

Of course not. He just went to another area and posted the same crap with the same argument under a different subject line.

Then again, when a thread is moved, is the person that started it notified? Maybe he can't find them.

and that was cleared up.

 

[nakedemperor]

Apologies for the delayed response, I'm really under the gun this week.

Anyway, whoever said "going awol on the national guard isn't that bad", tell that to the national guardsmen getting killed in iraq.

Second... Bush didn't fulfill his duties in Alabama. He acknowledged this, saying he did the non-flying drills (remember, he lost his wings in 1972 and couldn't legally fly an airplane) in Texas later. Anyone one of you, I challenge you to find these records too. Or did TEXAS' records for this period go missing too? On top of this, Bush wasn't given any new or altered duties on account of his grounded flight status. Anyone who wants to look for records of these, be my guest as well.

 

[nakedemperor]

Also, I posted this thread first, it was moved, and I didn't know (I'm a 1-day veteran of this site), so I started another one elsewhere. I was trying to be sneaky and I wasn't being intellectually cowardly. I just made a mistake.
Apologies!

 

[nakedemperor]

*wasn't trying to be sneaky.

Oy. Let's hope no one here has read interpretation of dreams =P

 

[Annie]

NAKED EMPEROR I understand why you posted something similar, due to the thread being moved.

You have now however, posted numerous times the same info regarding Bush's service. That is called flooding. You have also said for someone to discredit what you have posted. Earlier I did so: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=137363&postcount=5

Now if you wish to find reliable sources to counter the arguments and sources of this non-partisan site, feel free. Otherwise, do not keep posting the same.

 

[nakedemperor]

This is the closest thing I can find in the article Kathianne recommended to "proof" that Bush attended drills in Alabama or recieved non-flying duties in Texas after his wings were stripped:

_______
Bush himself later was quoted directly by the Dallas Morning News as admitting he missed some weekend drills while in Alabama, but saying he made them up afterward:

"I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time," he said. "I made up some missed weekends."

"I can't remember what I did, but I wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes. I fulfilled my obligations."

Records are lacking for that period. However, The Associated Press quoted two friends who worked with Bush in the Blount campaign as saying they recall him attending Air National Guard drills in Alabama. Joe Holcombe, described as a former Republican county chairman in Alabama, was quoted as saying, "It was pretty well-known that he was in the Guard while we worked on the campaign." And Emily Marks, who said she had dated Bush during the campaign, was quoted saying, "He told us that he was having to do his Guard duty in Alabama while he worked on the campaign."
______

So while it speaks of Bush's flying abilities in glowing terms, this hardly "deals" with anything. There are two friends quoted here as (One of them) having HEARD he was "in the guard" at the time, which was true, but not necessarily attending any drills. The second was someone who Bush TOLD he had to do his duty while on the campaign. Well shit, everyone knew he HAD to do them, but the question is, DID he do them.

The funny part is I was being sarcastic about the make-up drill records being possibly missing. But, surprise, they are. Spooooky.

Also, every seems ready to dismiss "chickenhawking" as youthful indiscretion on Bush and all the others' part. If Bush instates the draft in his potential next term, could people dodge the draft in creative ways and simply pass it off as youthful indiscretion? Yeah, right. The admin. and FNC would crucify them for being unpatriotic.

 

[nakedemperor]

Also, it is unforgivable that he should say he wasn't flying because "they didn't have the same plans" (kathianne's article, previous post). He wasn't flying because his wings were stripped, and everyone knows this, and it was dishonest to say otherwise.

 

[DKSuddeth]

nakedemporer, you MUST provide weblinks for these statements you post. Just copying and pasting excerpts is not going to cut it.

 

[nakedemperor]

I said "the aritcle that kathianne recommended". Its in her post, right before mine.

 

[Annie]

I said "the aritcle that kathianne recommended". Its in her post, right before mine.

There are links to the articles, in this case at factcheck.org. If you are responding to an article, include the link, 'quote' what you want, then respond outside the quote. Perhaps you should look around a bit to see how it's done? For instance: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=136422&postcount=1