CDZ Are Liberals Their Own Worst Enemy?

[rightwinger]

Sorry...doesn't answer the question
Pork is still pork

You claim powers have been ceded to the government by liberals. That is not a power

Never claimed the problem was CREATED by leftists. I only observed that those guys are not predisposed to questioning the power and scope of Congress OR it's spending. Not a lot of fiscal conservatives on that side. And even less left that understand how free markets work.

So it's a matter of what the right calls "big government". The left assumes they are just drama queens screeching about liberty and freedom and the right to be a miser. But THIS is the fundamental argument about what govt should and shouldn't do. And why something like corporate welfare --- which probably has a bipartisian 88% disapproval rating can't get fixed.

Because the left won't sign up for ANY FORM of taking back assignments of power that Congress never should have taken.. Big government IS a problem. Because the important stuff ain't getting done and congress can not control the behemoth it's created anymore.

OK

What powers do you want to take back and why?

Why is it what I want? You like corporate welfare? You like the Feds messing with the Internet or unleashing the world's most powerful spy agency on you? Think we need BIGGER govt -- when Congress can't get answers from ANY of the agencies in their oversight roles.??

In terms of the corporate welfare -- unfortunately for me because I HATE both parties almost equally -- you need both of the existing parties to get fiscally responsible for real. They do not have our blessing to entertain lobbies and dole out money for subsidies of all types. Just get them out of the biz of supporting ANY product or service that is in a mature market place. There is NO constitutional authority for that. Slash the Commerce Dept. Dismantle it and put the remaining pieces somewhere else.

It needs to be made clear what "promoting Commerce" means. And make certain that any action of the Congress to do such things NEVER favors a particular organization or groups of organizations.

It's a non-partisan project. But I don't expect much enthusiasm from folks on the left who don't care about a $17Trill debt. Or the size and scale of government. Fed govt ought to be concentrating on ensuring fair and accurate elections and stuff like that. PRIMARY DUTIES.. Instead we get half-hearted delayed reactive fixes.

It seems you don't understand what powers of government are

Government has always had the power of taxation and deciding who qualifies for tax breaks. That is nothing new and has nothing to do with liberals
The feds messed" with the internet to prevent it from being sold to the highest bidder...I support it

So you believe the Commerce Clause intended that certain corporations would be treated with favoritism? And again -- the problem wasn't CREATED solely by leftists -- but they sure as hell have no interest in curtailing ANY powers of Congress to direct cash to favorites.

It is not a new power

Want to go back to the incentives Congress gave to the Railroads?
It was absolute theft

 

[flacaltenn]

Never claimed the problem was CREATED by leftists. I only observed that those guys are not predisposed to questioning the power and scope of Congress OR it's spending. Not a lot of fiscal conservatives on that side. And even less left that understand how free markets work.

So it's a matter of what the right calls "big government". The left assumes they are just drama queens screeching about liberty and freedom and the right to be a miser. But THIS is the fundamental argument about what govt should and shouldn't do. And why something like corporate welfare --- which probably has a bipartisian 88% disapproval rating can't get fixed.

Because the left won't sign up for ANY FORM of taking back assignments of power that Congress never should have taken.. Big government IS a problem. Because the important stuff ain't getting done and congress can not control the behemoth it's created anymore.

OK

What powers do you want to take back and why?

Why is it what I want? You like corporate welfare? You like the Feds messing with the Internet or unleashing the world's most powerful spy agency on you? Think we need BIGGER govt -- when Congress can't get answers from ANY of the agencies in their oversight roles.??

In terms of the corporate welfare -- unfortunately for me because I HATE both parties almost equally -- you need both of the existing parties to get fiscally responsible for real. They do not have our blessing to entertain lobbies and dole out money for subsidies of all types. Just get them out of the biz of supporting ANY product or service that is in a mature market place. There is NO constitutional authority for that. Slash the Commerce Dept. Dismantle it and put the remaining pieces somewhere else.

It needs to be made clear what "promoting Commerce" means. And make certain that any action of the Congress to do such things NEVER favors a particular organization or groups of organizations.

It's a non-partisan project. But I don't expect much enthusiasm from folks on the left who don't care about a $17Trill debt. Or the size and scale of government. Fed govt ought to be concentrating on ensuring fair and accurate elections and stuff like that. PRIMARY DUTIES.. Instead we get half-hearted delayed reactive fixes.

It seems you don't understand what powers of government are

Government has always had the power of taxation and deciding who qualifies for tax breaks. That is nothing new and has nothing to do with liberals
The feds messed" with the internet to prevent it from being sold to the highest bidder...I support it

So you believe the Commerce Clause intended that certain corporations would be treated with favoritism? And again -- the problem wasn't CREATED solely by leftists -- but they sure as hell have no interest in curtailing ANY powers of Congress to direct cash to favorites.

It is not a new power

Want to go back to the incentives Congress gave to the Railroads?
It was absolute theft

And you like it? Imagine how much more pervasive this is today. Much worse than some RR expenditures that equate to building infrastructure.. Don't care how or where the theft started. It's time to reduce the ability of the government to meddle in market winners/losers and dole out favors in return for cash..

Democrat party used to include a bunch of fiscal conservatives that CARED about spending. They've been purged by the ever left-ward leaning electorate. Even some of the ultra-leftist orgs have started to realize that without a shred of fiscal sanity -- there's no hope to ever get their favorite wet dreams funded. And I've seen MANY articles/essays bleating about how being fiscally conservative would result in better success for an aggressive social agenda..

 

[lilac212]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

Yes, liberals are their own worst enemy, but unfortunately, they don't know it yet..maybe never will.

 

[regent]

Nations, as people, are often classified as being liberal or conservative. The US is a liberal nation, began as a liberal nation and remains a liberal nation, too liberal for some and not liberal enough for others but still a liberal country, Perhaps the interesting thing is that the US is becoming more liberal over time.

 

[Arianrhod]

Speaking as a liberal and looking around this message board, it seems to me that the majority of angry, frustrated, and vengeful posters are not liberals.

 

[oldsoul]

Speaking as a liberal and looking around this message board, it seems to me that the majority of angry, frustrated, and vengeful posters are not liberals.

This has not been my experience, both here and in the real world. Maybe we travel in different circles though, yea, that's likely why we see it differently... Couldn't be that alot of folks out here in the real world see our country going to hell in a handbasket because we have abandoned our traditional Judeo-Christian values... No, that couldn't be it...

 

[Arianrhod]

Speaking as a liberal and looking around this message board, it seems to me that the majority of angry, frustrated, and vengeful posters are not liberals.

This has not been my experience, both here and in the real world. Maybe we travel in different circles though, yea, that's likely why we see it differently... Couldn't be that alot of folks out here in the real world see our country going to hell in a handbasket because we have abandoned our traditional Judeo-Christian values... No, that couldn't be it...

Making the mistake of thinking that (A) the U.S. is a theocracy and (B) morality can and should be legislated is certainly an aspect of the anger, frustration, and vengefulness.

 

[mudwhistle]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

Obama came to Washington to transform it.

That means corruption, a lack of trust in institutions, and a general malaise in everything we hold dear.

 

[Arianrhod]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

Obama came to Washington to transform it.

That means corruption, a lack of trust in institutions, and a general malaise in everything we hold dear.

Between the invasion of a sovereign nation on cooked intel, the subprime meltdown, and a few other mere peccadilloes, that's as fair a description of the situation on January 19, 2009 as I've seen recently.

 

[2aguy]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

no...liberals are humanities worst enemies....

 

[Arianrhod]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

no...liberals are humanities worst enemies....

How many humanities are there?

 

[2aguy]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

You can calm down
Liberals have always been in this country....in fact, this country was founded by liberals

Homosexuals being allowed to marry will not end the world as we know it

The Founders were not modern "liberals" but thanks for lying about that......the philosophy of the founders is what today we call modern American conservatism.....

left wing socialists have taken the term "liberal" and are using it to hide who they really are...they are in fact illiberal in every sense and have nothing in common with the liberalism of the founders....they would have nothing in common....

the Founders would be right at home with modern American
Conservatives and their love of liberty.....

 

[2aguy]

Speaking as a liberal and looking around this message board, it seems to me that the majority of angry, frustrated, and vengeful posters are not liberals.

This has not been my experience, both here and in the real world. Maybe we travel in different circles though, yea, that's likely why we see it differently... Couldn't be that alot of folks out here in the real world see our country going to hell in a handbasket because we have abandoned our traditional Judeo-Christian values... No, that couldn't be it...

Making the mistake of thinking that (A) the U.S. is a theocracy and (B) morality can and should be legislated is certainly an aspect of the anger, frustration, and vengefulness.

Yes..you can't legislate morality....so why did we make murder illegal?

 

[Arianrhod]

Speaking as a liberal and looking around this message board, it seems to me that the majority of angry, frustrated, and vengeful posters are not liberals.

This has not been my experience, both here and in the real world. Maybe we travel in different circles though, yea, that's likely why we see it differently... Couldn't be that alot of folks out here in the real world see our country going to hell in a handbasket because we have abandoned our traditional Judeo-Christian values... No, that couldn't be it...

Making the mistake of thinking that (A) the U.S. is a theocracy and (B) morality can and should be legislated is certainly an aspect of the anger, frustration, and vengefulness.

Yes..you can't legislate morality....so why did we make murder illegal?

It is legal under certain circumstances...capital punishment, for example.

In contrast, if this were a Quaker theocracy, do you imagine there would ever be a war?

 

[regent]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

You can calm down
Liberals have always been in this country....in fact, this country was founded by liberals

Homosexuals being allowed to marry will not end the world as we know it

The Founders were not modern "liberals" but thanks for lying about that......the philosophy of the founders is what today we call modern American conservatism.....

left wing socialists have taken the term "liberal" and are using it to hide who they really are...they are in fact illiberal in every sense and have nothing in common with the liberalism of the founders....they would have nothing in common....

the Founders would be right at home with modern American
Conservatives and their love of liberty.....

"For the framers of the Constitution were the most liberal thinkers of all the ages and the charter they produced out of the liberal revolution of their time has never been and is not now surpassed in liberal thought."
General Douglas MacArthur.

 

[oldsoul]

Making the mistake of thinking that (A) the U.S. is a theocracy and (B) morality can and should be legislated is certainly an aspect of the anger, frustration, and vengefulness.

What is your point?

 

[oldsoul]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

Obama came to Washington to transform it.

That means corruption, a lack of trust in institutions, and a general malaise in everything we hold dear.

Between the invasion of a sovereign nation on cooked intel, the subprime meltdown, and a few other mere peccadilloes, that's as fair a description of the situation on January 19, 2009 as I've seen recently.

Sadly, I don't see how things have gotten any better. Corruption is still prevelant; intel, that isn't cooked, seems to be either ignored or misused; lack of trust in the government is the same (at best); divisivness seems to be at an all time high (at least in my lifetime); I don't see ANY real leadership from EITHER side of the aisle. But, it doesn't really matter anyway, because the masses are more concerned with Hollywood gossip, and what the Kardashians are up to. So sad, so udderly, tragicly sad. We are losing our Republic, and noone seems to notice, let alone care....

 

[Kondor3]

Are Liberals (Democrats) their own worst enemy?

Yes.

Absolutely.

Just as Conservatives (Republicans) are their own worst enemy.

BOTH parties are full of shit clean up to their ears.

BOTH parties serve-up professional politicians who lie their asses off to get elected - promising much and delivering little.

BOTH parties are corrupt and are filled with Bought Men and Women - vassals of their Corporate Masters.

BOTH parties represent a side of the same sick coin - same old shit - different approach vectors.

BOTH parties have lost the confidence of The People.

And there's nothing worth-a-damn, extant at present, to counter the entropy.

It is why the "out-liers" are doing so well, so far, this election cycle.

The People are tired of the Same Old Shit, in either Establishment Wrapper.

And, when The People have had enough, they do 'unconventional' things, and then the Establishment Types and Pundits act all shocked and confused; the fools.

God Bless The People of the United States.

 

[mudwhistle]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

Obama came to Washington to transform it.

That means corruption, a lack of trust in institutions, and a general malaise in everything we hold dear.

Between the invasion of a sovereign nation on cooked intel, the subprime meltdown, and a few other mere peccadilloes, that's as fair a description of the situation on January 19, 2009 as I've seen recently.

Sadly, I don't see how things have gotten any better. Corruption is still prevelant; intel, that isn't cooked, seems to be either ignored or misused; lack of trust in the government is the same (at best); divisivness seems to be at an all time high (at least in my lifetime); I don't see ANY real leadership from EITHER side of the aisle. But, it doesn't really matter anyway, because the masses are more concerned with Hollywood gossip, and what the Kardashians are up to. So sad, so udderly, tragicly sad. We are losing our Republic, and noone seems to notice, let alone care....

Leadership from this white house has been absent since Obama took office. At the lower levels in the military, everyone has had to deal with funds being cut off, and when they are provided, no guidance on how to spend it. We don't know what to expect from this administration. Are there going to be cutbacks or not? Nobody knows.

It appears like the white house is at war with the military. We have to follow orders, but the orders make no sense.

 

[Arianrhod]

THIS IS NOT A RANT AGAINST LIBERALS. It is a question about whether the imposition of liberal policies which conflict with established social norms inevitably breeds a political overreaction which results in an even less liberal society. This has happened throughout history, and is happening right now in many Muslim countries.

Can it happen here? There are a growing number of people who believe that our country is in grave danger not seen since the Civil War. With mounting evidence, they view the agencies of the federal government to be both corrupt and illegal organs of political suppression and intimidation. The ascendance of "anti-establishment" political candidates indicates a serious lack of faith in these institutions.

What will be the result? Will the bare faced political shenanigans of the last eight years be reversed with a vengeance? Will fire be met with even greater fire? The mood of the electorate seems to be favoring more authoritarian rule by one side or another. Will we lose either way?

Obama came to Washington to transform it.

That means corruption, a lack of trust in institutions, and a general malaise in everything we hold dear.

Between the invasion of a sovereign nation on cooked intel, the subprime meltdown, and a few other mere peccadilloes, that's as fair a description of the situation on January 19, 2009 as I've seen recently.

Sadly, I don't see how things have gotten any better. Corruption is still prevelant; intel, that isn't cooked, seems to be either ignored or misused; lack of trust in the government is the same (at best); divisivness seems to be at an all time high (at least in my lifetime); I don't see ANY real leadership from EITHER side of the aisle. But, it doesn't really matter anyway, because the masses are more concerned with Hollywood gossip, and what the Kardashians are up to. So sad, so udderly, tragicly sad. We are losing our Republic, and noone seems to notice, let alone care....

I wonder, though, how much of that is reality and how much is perception? In other words, because of the Internet (and especially the Twitterverse) and the 24/7 news cycle, are we simply more aware of the corruption and divisiveness than we were before all that?