Are Blacks Americans too?

[Lonestar_logic]

I don't consider 3000 of the 4.5 million living in the USA in 1860 a "large number."

Reading comprehension.....is a bitch huh.

I wouldn't know.

New Orleans is in the USA, but New Orleans is not THE USA.

It was one of the very few places sited in the article as home to any black slaveholders.

Once again, it would probably be a good idea to work on your critical thinking skills before faulting anyone else.

Yes New Orleans is in the USA. But out of the 4.5 million blacks in the ENTIRE U.S., 3000 of them in ONE city owned slaves. And you didn't read the article. It spoke of black slave owners in South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia as well as the 3000 out of 10,689 blacks that lived in New Orleans.

You really should work on your reading comprehension skills.

 

[paperview]

I take it you ignored the link I provided that stated;

"The fact is large numbers of free Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large.

No I read that.

But, I don't believe everything I read, especially when it mysteriously omits the actual number in favor of the author's opinion that the number is "large."

According to your source

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States,

Your source only identified a little over 3,000 blacks owned slaves. The proportion of black slave owners is 3 of every 4,500 blacks in the USA during 1860. Um..... that's less than 0.1%

He then says

fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves.

Which means 90% of blacks in the South were slaves in 1860.

90% is much more than 0.1% So I conclude that the fact that some blacks owned blacks is insignificant to the fact that most blacks were slaves.


And I agree with Robert M. Grooms that the proportion of American whites that owned slaves was also low at 1.4%

I see numbNut Logic is still using Robert Grooms as a source.

Grooms is a known revisionist. Note the article that derived from:

Barnes Review. Look them up. They are holocaust deniers and high-torch revisionists.
Grooms plays fast and loose with his numbers and has been debunked repeatedly.

Anyone who uses Grooms as a source should be laughed at.

 

[paperview]

Barnes Review

The Barnes Review is a bi-monthly magazine founded in 1994 by Willis Carto, dedicated to historical revisionism such as Holocaust denial. Willis Carto had earlier founded the Institute for Historical Review in 1979 but lost control of that organization in an internal takeover by former associates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_Review#cite_note-0
^ "Willis A. Carto: Fabricating History". Anti-Defamation League. Willis A. Carto: Fabricating History. Retrieved 2008-11-17. "The Spotlight announced in August 1994 that Liberty Lobby was launching a new publication devoted to historical revisionism called The Barnes Review (after the 20th century revisionist historian Harry Elmer Barnes)."

 

[paperview]

...
My "agenda" is seeking the truth and educating those that are ignorant of historical facts.

Have you ever heard of Prince Whipple?

Or Wentworth Cheswell?

...

Or Benjamin Banneker?

Or Lemuel Haynes?

Or William Ellison?

Or Antoine Dubuclet?

Or P.C. Richards?

Just to name a few.

And most of those people on your list looked as white as John Boehner.

 

[paperview]

It is certainly true there were black slaveowners, but I'm sure, as you know, those free blacks were often prisoners in their own states. Law in many Southern states forbade them to even leave the state - unless it was permanent, they were restricted in commerce, legal matters, etc...; just simply living for a free black, even ones who had built up wealth was not as some would have you believe. As the war approached, even more laws were written that could snatch away their "freedom" at any given moment
...and of course, Dred Scott made it clear they were not even citizens of the country they lived in.

Yes, some black slaveowners bought slaves to purchase their kin's freedom, some did it for economic, pragmatic reasons, and some were just as dastardly as their fully white counterparts. All true.

But Grooms inflates numbers by playing with statistics and presenting a much different picture than actually was.
He also fails to mention a good portion of those "negro slaveowners" were mulattoes.

Mary Chestnut wrote about those mulattoes:

"God forgive us, but ours is a monstrous system and wrong and iniquity. Perhaps the rest of the world is as bad—this only I see.
Like the patriarchs of our old men live all in one house with their wives and their concubines, and the mulattoes one sees in every family exactly resemble the white children
—and every lady tells you who is the father of all the mulatto children in everybody's household, but those in her own she seems to think drop from the clouds, or pretends so to think."[Link]

More often than not, those "black slaveowners" many refer to, were by all appearances, quite white.

 

[paperview]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I take it you ignored the link I provided that stated;

"The fact is large numbers of free Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large.

No I read that.

But, I don't believe everything I read, especially when it mysteriously omits the actual number in favor of the author's opinion that the number is "large."

According to your source



Your source only identified a little over 3,000 blacks owned slaves. The proportion of black slave owners is 3 of every 4,500 blacks in the USA during 1860. Um..... that's less than 0.1%

He then says

fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves.

Which means 90% of blacks in the South were slaves in 1860.

90% is much more than 0.1% So I conclude that the fact that some blacks owned blacks is insignificant to the fact that most blacks were slaves.


And I agree with Robert M. Grooms that the proportion of American whites that owned slaves was also low at 1.4%

I see numbNut Logic is still using Robert Grooms as a source.

Grooms is a known revisionist. Note the article that derived from:

Barnes Review. Look them up. They are holocaust deniers and high-torch revisionists.
Grooms plays fast and loose with his numbers and has been debunked repeatedly.

Anyone who uses Grooms as a source should be laughed at.

Yes and he cited these sources.

1. The American Negro: Old World Background and New World Experience, Raymond Logan and Irving Cohen New York: Houghton and Mifflin, 1970), p.72.

2. Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984), p.64.

3. The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color, Gary Mills (Baton Rouge, 1977); Black Masters, p.128.

4. Male inheritance expectations in the United States in 1870, 1850-1870, Lee Soltow (New Haven, 1975), p.85.
5. Black Masters, Appendix, Table 7; p.280.

6. Black Masters, p. 62.

7. Information on the Ellison family was obtained from Black Masters; the number of slaves they owned was gained from U.S. Census Reports.

8. In 1860 South Carolina had only 21 gin makers; Ellison, his three sons and a grandson account for five of the total.

9. Neither Black Nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States, Carl N. Degler (New York, Macmillan, 1971), p.39;
Negro Slavery in Louisiana, Joe Gray Taylor (Baton Rouge, 1963), pp. 4041.

10. Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, Eric Foner (New York; Harper & Row, 1988), p. 47; pp. 353-355.

ps.
You're being laughed at.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

...
My "agenda" is seeking the truth and educating those that are ignorant of historical facts.

Have you ever heard of Prince Whipple?

Or Wentworth Cheswell?

...

Or Benjamin Banneker?

Or Lemuel Haynes?

Or William Ellison?

Or Antoine Dubuclet?

Or P.C. Richards?

Just to name a few.

And most of those people on your list looked as white as John Boehner.

Prove it.

 

[High_Gravity]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

Back when those guys were alive if you had 1/8th black blood in you, you were considered black. White people wanted nothing to do with them even though their appearance was white, you could get in a lot of trouble if you tried to pass for a white person if you were light skinned.

 

[paperview]

...
My "agenda" is seeking the truth and educating those that are ignorant of historical facts.

Have you ever heard of Prince Whipple?

Or Wentworth Cheswell?

...

Or Benjamin Banneker?

Or Lemuel Haynes?

Or William Ellison?

Or Antoine Dubuclet?

Or P.C. Richards?

Just to name a few.

And most of those people on your list looked as white as John Boehner.

Prove it.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3297573-post126.html

 

[paperview]

Robert Grooms writes for the Barnes Review

The Barnes Review is a bi-monthly magazine founded in 1994 by Willis Carto, dedicated to historical revisionism such as Holocaust denial.

No one in historical circles takes him seriously. He is a JOKE.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

Are you saying these gentlemen were not African-American and all the historians are wrong?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Robert Grooms writes for the Barnes Review

The Barnes Review is a bi-monthly magazine founded in 1994 by Willis Carto, dedicated to historical revisionism such as Holocaust denial.

No one in historical circles takes him seriously. He is a JOKE.

That's your opinion.

 

[paperview]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

Are you saying these gentlemen were not African-American and all the historians are wrong?

Your ability to comprehend is matched only by your dearth of historical knowledge.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

Where's your source on Cheswell?

Your link on Lemuel doesn't state he was listed as a free white. as a matter of fact it states. "Lemuel Haynes (1753-1833) was an African-American religious leader who argued against slavery (from [1]).
" and the sketch isn't exactly a polaroid.

I think your making shit up.

 

[paperview]

Robert Grooms writes for the Barnes Review

The Barnes Review is a bi-monthly magazine founded in 1994 by Willis Carto, dedicated to historical revisionism such as Holocaust denial.

No one in historical circles takes him seriously. He is a JOKE.

That's your opinion.

No, it isn't opinion. Why you would want to associate your name with that racist, anti--Semitic rag is well...I guess it makes sense for you.

Background
Named after Harry Elmer Barnes, a prominent 20th-century anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, The Barnes Review was created by Willis Carto, who also founded the extreme right-wing Liberty Lobby and the Institute for Historical Review (IHR), another Holocaust denial organization.


Carto created The Barnes Review as a rival to IHR after he was forced out by the IHR's leadership in 1993 for financial mismanagement.



Claiming that its mission is to "tell the whole about history," TBR really practices an extremist form of revisionist history that includes defending the Nazi regime, denying the Holocaust, discounting the evils of slavery, and promoting white nationalism.


The Barnes Review magazine has published articles entitled "Adolf Hitler — An Overlooked Candidate for the Nobel Prize?", "Treblinka Was No Death Camp", "Is There a Negro Race?", "‘Reconquista': The Mexican Plan to Take the Southwest", and "David Duke: An Awakening." The Barnes Review, like most of the radical-right institutions started by Willis Carto over the decades, also gives voice to any number of wild conspiracy theories.



... The list of historical lies and distortions goes on and on and on. . ."


Barnes Review | Southern Poverty Law Center

 

[paperview]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

Where's your source on Cheswell?

Your link on Lemuel doesn't state he was listed as a free white. as a matter of fact it states. "Lemuel Haynes (1753-1833) was an African-American religious leader who argued against slavery (from [1]).
" and the sketch isn't exactly a polaroid.

I think your making shit up.

I have the130 page Master's Thesis here right in front of me. Entitled:

"A PEOPLE OF COLOR":​

A STUDY OF RACE AND RACIAL IDENTIFICATION IN​

NEW HAMPSHIRE, 1750-1825​

I have studied Cheswell long long before Barton or Beck ever even heard of him. Well over 15 years ago. Barton's document he holds up of Cheswell was once in my hands. Does that give you an information?​

You can also see the PBS Frontline special on the Blurred Racial Lines of Famous Families:


Frontline: Famous Families
[

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Robert Grooms writes for the Barnes Review

The Barnes Review is a bi-monthly magazine founded in 1994 by Willis Carto, dedicated to historical revisionism such as Holocaust denial.

No one in historical circles takes him seriously. He is a JOKE.

That's your opinion.

No, it isn't opinion. Why you would want to associate your name with that racist, anti--Semitic rag is well...I guess it makes sense for you.

Background
Named after Harry Elmer Barnes, a prominent 20th-century anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, The Barnes Review was created by Willis Carto, who also founded the extreme right-wing Liberty Lobby and the Institute for Historical Review (IHR), another Holocaust denial organization.


Carto created The Barnes Review as a rival to IHR after he was forced out by the IHR's leadership in 1993 for financial mismanagement.



Claiming that its mission is to "tell the whole about history," TBR really practices an extremist form of revisionist history that includes defending the Nazi regime, denying the Holocaust, discounting the evils of slavery, and promoting white nationalism.


The Barnes Review magazine has published articles entitled "Adolf Hitler — An Overlooked Candidate for the Nobel Prize?", "Treblinka Was No Death Camp", "Is There a Negro Race?", "‘Reconquista': The Mexican Plan to Take the Southwest", and "David Duke: An Awakening." The Barnes Review, like most of the radical-right institutions started by Willis Carto over the decades, also gives voice to any number of wild conspiracy theories.



... The list of historical lies and distortions goes on and on and on. . ."


Barnes Review | Southern Poverty Law Center

Still opinion.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

To look a little deeper at your 'list," LittleLogic:

Wentworth Cheswell had 1/4 black blood. He was a quadroon.
He was by all appearances white. [I know more about Cheswell than you could ever imagine, trust me on this.] Listed in the 1790 census as Free White

Lemuel Haynes - the 18th-century “African-American preacher” of a white congregation? You may recall, the preacher Glenn Beck and the phony historian Barton went on about? You know, the one 'no one cared that he was black back then' -- back before people cared about color and things were 'better for blacks before the Civil War' - according to Glenn.

How African American does this guy look to you?:

File:Lemuel Haynes.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, Listed in the 1790 census as Free White.

"April" William Ellison, Jr? Light skinned mulatto. No one today would call him a Negro upon sight.

Antoine Dubuclet:

Click the picture for larger view of the "black Senator."

P.C. Richards? Another light skinned mulatto.

Did they have black blood? Yep. But the visuals of their skin tone cast a certain er...color on the subject, donnit?

Where's your source on Cheswell?

Your link on Lemuel doesn't state he was listed as a free white. as a matter of fact it states. "Lemuel Haynes (1753-1833) was an African-American religious leader who argued against slavery (from [1]).
" and the sketch isn't exactly a polaroid.

I think your making shit up.

I have the130 page Master's Thesis here right in front of me. Entitled:

"A PEOPLE OF COLOR":​

A STUDY OF RACE AND RACIAL IDENTIFICATION IN​

NEW HAMPSHIRE, 1750-1825​

I have studied Cheswell long long before Barton or Beck ever even heard of him. Well over 15 years ago. Barton's document he holds up of Cheswell was once in my hands. Does that give you an information?​

You can also see the PBS Frontline special on the Blurred Racial Lines of Famous Families:


Frontline: Famous Families
[

Cheswell was African-American and nothing you provided states otherwise.

 

[paperview]

Where's your source on Cheswell?

Your link on Lemuel doesn't state he was listed as a free white. as a matter of fact it states. "Lemuel Haynes (1753-1833) was an African-American religious leader who argued against slavery (from [1]).
" and the sketch isn't exactly a polaroid.

I think your making shit up.

I have the130 page Master's Thesis here right in front of me. Entitled:

"A PEOPLE OF COLOR":​

A STUDY OF RACE AND RACIAL IDENTIFICATION IN​

NEW HAMPSHIRE, 1750-1825​

I have studied Cheswell long long before Barton or Beck ever even heard of him. Well over 15 years ago. Barton's document he holds up of Cheswell was once in my hands. Does that give you an information?​

You can also see the PBS Frontline special on the Blurred Racial Lines of Famous Families:


Frontline: Famous Families
[

Cheswell was African-American and nothing you provided states otherwise.

Yes, he was African American, but he was white as his fellow white citizens. My link above states that, as does all my historical background on him, which is voluminous, as well as this other fact: In the 1790 Census, he was counted as: Free White.

Keep trying, little dowggies.