Anyone who sneers at pro-abortion/Nazi parallels should watch this:

[Kiki Cannoli]

Kg i get that you despise abortion. Equating a woman who does not choose to be a mother with that if a nazi seems a bit extreme.

I recently watched an hbo documentary following oregon's end of life option. Very inteteresting as it followed the thought process if the terminally ill along with their loved ones as they took steps to toward death. Each story is unique with one strong commonality. The dying expressed relief and control once they received the death potions. Disease had run their lives and now they were in charge again. A moving perspective of a very personal choice.

 

[koshergrl]

So what is the lie, mamooth?

That abortion is negative eugenics applied?

Negative eugenics - Medical Definition and More from Merriam-Webster

I think I'm done with you. You post nothing of substance, you just keep screaming "you're a liar" without identifying the lies or contributing anything to the discussion. In other words, you sound like an abortion zealot...just like the loons who supported the policies of negative eugenics that lent the Nazis and the Germans a lot more notoriety than they every wanted.

 

[koshergrl]

Kg i get that you despise abortion. Equating a woman who does not choose to be a mother with that if a nazi seems a bit extreme.

I recently watched an hbo documentary following oregon's end of life option. Very inteteresting as it followed the thought process if the terminally ill along with their loved ones as they took steps to toward death. Each story is unique with one strong commonality. The dying expressed relief and control once they received the death potions. Disease had run their lives and now they were in charge again. A moving perspective of a very personal choice.

Yup. That is exactly the psychology the nazis used to lull people into acceptance of the death camps. Death for the overall good...the view that some lives have no value. It's doing them a favor to kill them...etc. and so on and so forth.

"Works such as Jost's Das Recht auf den Tod (The Right to Death) and Binding and Hoche's Die Freigabe der Vernichtung Lebensunwerten Lebens (The Permission to Destroy Life Unworthy of Life) greatly influenced the German medical profession of the 1920s and 30s. In his book, The Nazi Doctors, historian Robert Lifton describes the latter work as "crucial" in creating acceptance among medical professionals for euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide. Published 13 years before Hitler took power, The Permission to Destroy Life Unworthy of Life proposed that "sterbehilfe," the German word for "dying help," be offered to the "incurably ill" and "lives in a condition of total helplessness, requiring care by another."


http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Oth...thanasia-PossibleOriginOfGasChambersStory.htm

"Nazi propaganda films portrayed euthanasia as a loving and compassionate act. In the Nazi propaganda film, "I Accuse! (Ich klage an!)", a woman with multiple sclerosis asks her husband who is a doctor to permanently relieve her of her suffering. He agrees to give her a lethal injection of morphine while his friend (who is also a doctor) plays tranquil music on the piano. At his trial he argues that he committed an act of mercy, not murder. He is acquitted."

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Oth...thanasia-PossibleOriginOfGasChambersStory.htm

 

[mamooth]

Disagree with Koshergrl's Church policy in any way, you're a Nazi. It's the limit of her intellectual capacity.

People who allow others to make their own end of life decisions? Nazis.

The 51% of Catholics who voted for Obama? Obviously Nazis.

The founding fathers, who had no problem with legal abortion? Also Nazis.

She's one of the few stalwarts on an entire planet filled with Nazis. That's got to grate on the ol' sanity. And it shows.

 

[Gadawg73]

Tell us your views on euthanasia and abortion, gadawg.

I know you're one of the hardliners. Go for it.

The for profit medical care industry in America is opposed to euthanasia and practice that at all costs. My father, WWII combat Marine Captain had a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) ORDER drawn up by his attorney per Florida Statute in 2006 because of his suffering in the illness that he had. In 2007 he went into Lee Memorial Hospital in Fort Myers, Fla. and specifically had his DNR order in his hands when we took him to the emergency room. Lee County has a few hospitals there and are all under the same management. Dad was also a member of the Florida Right To Die Association, as most all WWII veterans are that want to do what is right and die with peace and not be a weak ass burden on society. Dad carried that card in his wallet and a copy was on file with Lee Memorial. In 2009 he passed out at the assisted living facility he lived in there. They took him to Lee Memorial again and he stayed for 5 days. We had to get his attorney there to threaten to sue them because they would not release him and had him hooked up to life saving devices in ECU for those 5 days. 76K bill submitted to Medicare. May 2010 he is doing bad and I get a call from the nurse at the assisted living facility at 5 pm on a Thursday night as they took him back to Lee Memorial as he was doing bad. They had the DNR order and copy of his RTD card given to the ambulance driver. I call down there on Friday morning and make arrangements to fly in asap from Atlanta. "Well, we are looking for the DNR order, it really needs to be updated" blah, stall, run up the tab, blah, blah blah. Fly in Saturday morning and they transfer Dad over to a nursing home across the street from lee Memorial 4 days and another 66K later for "rehab" which he DID NOT want. After fighting with them for a day I finally agreed to a few days of therapy BUT they agreed that the DNR order WOULD be honored. Next day I get a call from 3 different rehab therapists, occupational therapy, speech therapy and motor skills therapy. WTF does an 89 year old man need occupational therapy for? I fly back to Atlanta as all was well at the nursing home. 5 days later at 9 pm on another Thursday night in late May 2010 I get a call from an orderly at the nursing home. "Uh, your Dad, uh, he has been taken back to the hospital." I ask him what the hell for! He specifically has a DNR order IN PLACE. "Uh, oh well, uh, I do not know". Then let me speak to the nurse. "Uh, oh well, like they are all gone but the one duty nurse and she does not really know as she is with someone else now". So I ask him where they sent Dad. "Uh, like, we sent him to Gulf Hospital" WTF for I asked, that hospital is 12 miles from there and why not back to Lee Memorial. "Uh, I dunno, like I am new here" Of course anyone with a brain they did that because the meter runs at that hospital that can play stupid about the DNR order for a few days. I asked him if the DNR order was sent with Dad. "Uh, like, I could not find it and like, uh, no, we did not do that, uh, I think the nurse said no" So I fly down there the next day and Gulf is right on the way to where they live as Gulf is near the airport. I go in there and immediately see an entire wing of ICU patients of folks like Dad, the entire wing full of late 80s folks in ICU hooked up to machines. The hospice lady was there as I contacted her and she pulled me aside and said "By state law that the doctors and hospital administrators had passed I can not speak about what they do and how they never abide by the DNR orders if they can get away with it." After fighting with the doctors and providing certified copies of the DNR order issued through the law firm there 5 days later Dad was allowed to die in peace on MEMORIAL DAY 2010 to be with his Marine combat buddies that hit Saipan, Guam and had their troop carrier hit by a kamikazee offloading troops there. 3 months later all the bills that Medicare paid came in 122K for that visit. 15K a day for ICU HE NEVER WANTED.

This is the norm in America where 55% of all health care dollars are spent on 4% of the population doing exactly this in most cases. Let them die if that is their wish and you can play all your games and call it what you want.
Your beliefs on abortion and euthanasia are fairy tales.

 

[koshergrl]

Disagree with Koshergrl's Church policy in any way, you're a Nazi. It's the limit of her intellectual capacity.

People who allow others to make their own end of life decisions? Nazis.

The 51% of Catholics who voted for Obama? Obviously Nazis.

The founding fathers, who had no problem with legal abortion? Also Nazis.

She's one of the few stalwarts on an entire planet filled with Nazis. That's got to grate on the ol' sanity. And it shows.

You still haven't pointed out the lie I told.

My point is that your beliefs parallel the beliefs of the monsters of the Nazi party who set up the death camps.

And so far, I've made my case. You haven't.

 

[koshergrl]

Tell us your views on euthanasia and abortion, gadawg.

I know you're one of the hardliners. Go for it.

The for profit medical care industry in America is opposed to euthanasia and practice that at all costs. My father, WWII combat Marine Captain had a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) ORDER drawn up by his attorney per Florida Statute in 2006 because of his suffering in the illness that he had. In 2007 he went into Lee Memorial Hospital in Fort Myers, Fla. and specifically had his DNR order in his hands when we took him to the emergency room. Lee County has a few hospitals there and are all under the same management. Dad was also a member of the Florida Right To Die Association, as most all WWII veterans are that want to do what is right and die with peace and not be a weak ass burden on society. Dad carried that card in his wallet and a copy was on file with Lee Memorial. In 2009 he passed out at the assisted living facility he lived in there. They took him to Lee Memorial again and he stayed for 5 days. We had to get his attorney there to threaten to sue them because they would not release him and had him hooked up to life saving devices in ECU for those 5 days. 76K bill submitted to Medicare. May 2010 he is doing bad and I get a call from the nurse at the assisted living facility at 5 pm on a Thursday night as they took him back to Lee Memorial as he was doing bad. They had the DNR order and copy of his RTD card given to the ambulance driver. I call down there on Friday morning and make arrangements to fly in asap from Atlanta. "Well, we are looking for the DNR order, it really needs to be updated" blah, stall, run up the tab, blah, blah blah. Fly in Saturday morning and they transfer Dad over to a nursing home across the street from lee Memorial 4 days and another 66K later for "rehab" which he DID NOT want. After fighting with them for a day I finally agreed to a few days of therapy BUT they agreed that the DNR order WOULD be honored. Next day I get a call from 3 different rehab therapists, occupational therapy, speech therapy and motor skills therapy. WTF does an 89 year old man need occupational therapy for? I fly back to Atlanta as all was well at the nursing home. 5 days later at 9 pm on another Thursday night in late May 2010 I get a call from an orderly at the nursing home. "Uh, your Dad, uh, he has been taken back to the hospital." I ask him what the hell for! He specifically has a DNR order IN PLACE. "Uh, oh well, uh, I do not know". Then let me speak to the nurse. "Uh, oh well, like they are all gone but the one duty nurse and she does not really know as she is with someone else now". So I ask him where they sent Dad. "Uh, like, we sent him to Gulf Hospital" WTF for I asked, that hospital is 12 miles from there and why not back to Lee Memorial. "Uh, I dunno, like I am new here" Of course anyone with a brain they did that because the meter runs at that hospital that can play stupid about the DNR order for a few days. I asked him if the DNR order was sent with Dad. "Uh, like, I could not find it and like, uh, no, we did not do that, uh, I think the nurse said no" So I fly down there the next day and Gulf is right on the way to where they live as Gulf is near the airport. I go in there and immediately see an entire wing of ICU patients of folks like Dad, the entire wing full of late 80s folks in ICU hooked up to machines. The hospice lady was there as I contacted her and she pulled me aside and said "By state law that the doctors and hospital administrators had passed I can not speak about what they do and how they never abide by the DNR orders if they can get away with it." After fighting with the doctors and providing certified copies of the DNR order issued through the law firm there 5 days later Dad was allowed to die in peace on MEMORIAL DAY 2010 to be with his Marine combat buddies that hit Saipan, Guam and had their troop carrier hit by a kamikazee offloading troops there. 3 months later all the bills that Medicare paid came in 122K for that visit. 15K a day for ICU HE NEVER WANTED.

This is the norm in America where 55% of all health care dollars are spent on 4% of the population doing exactly this in most cases. Let them die if that is their wish and you can play all your games and call it what you want.
Your beliefs on abortion and euthanasia are fairy tales.

Oh, so you are saying it's financially sound to abort and euthanise.

Cue patriotic music.

 

[koshergrl]

What is my church policy, btw?

What a maroon, lol.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Disagree with Koshergrl's Church policy in any way, you're a Nazi. It's the limit of her intellectual capacity.

People who allow others to make their own end of life decisions? Nazis.

The 51% of Catholics who voted for Obama? Obviously Nazis.

The founding fathers, who had no problem with legal abortion? Also Nazis.

She's one of the few stalwarts on an entire planet filled with Nazis. That's got to grate on the ol' sanity. And it shows.

You still haven't pointed out the lie I told.

My point is that your beliefs parallel the beliefs of the monsters of the Nazi party who set up the death camps.

And so far, I've made my case. You haven't.

No, they've all been blithering about everything BUT the point.

I was personally very impressed by Kiki's touching Hallmark moment about how the only way to feel in control of your life is to kill yourself. Who knew Nazi propaganda could be so warm and fuzzy?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Tell us your views on euthanasia and abortion, gadawg.

I know you're one of the hardliners. Go for it.

The for profit medical care industry in America is opposed to euthanasia and practice that at all costs. My father, WWII combat Marine Captain had a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) ORDER drawn up by his attorney per Florida Statute in 2006 because of his suffering in the illness that he had. In 2007 he went into Lee Memorial Hospital in Fort Myers, Fla. and specifically had his DNR order in his hands when we took him to the emergency room. Lee County has a few hospitals there and are all under the same management. Dad was also a member of the Florida Right To Die Association, as most all WWII veterans are that want to do what is right and die with peace and not be a weak ass burden on society. Dad carried that card in his wallet and a copy was on file with Lee Memorial. In 2009 he passed out at the assisted living facility he lived in there. They took him to Lee Memorial again and he stayed for 5 days. We had to get his attorney there to threaten to sue them because they would not release him and had him hooked up to life saving devices in ECU for those 5 days. 76K bill submitted to Medicare. May 2010 he is doing bad and I get a call from the nurse at the assisted living facility at 5 pm on a Thursday night as they took him back to Lee Memorial as he was doing bad. They had the DNR order and copy of his RTD card given to the ambulance driver. I call down there on Friday morning and make arrangements to fly in asap from Atlanta. "Well, we are looking for the DNR order, it really needs to be updated" blah, stall, run up the tab, blah, blah blah. Fly in Saturday morning and they transfer Dad over to a nursing home across the street from lee Memorial 4 days and another 66K later for "rehab" which he DID NOT want. After fighting with them for a day I finally agreed to a few days of therapy BUT they agreed that the DNR order WOULD be honored. Next day I get a call from 3 different rehab therapists, occupational therapy, speech therapy and motor skills therapy. WTF does an 89 year old man need occupational therapy for? I fly back to Atlanta as all was well at the nursing home. 5 days later at 9 pm on another Thursday night in late May 2010 I get a call from an orderly at the nursing home. "Uh, your Dad, uh, he has been taken back to the hospital." I ask him what the hell for! He specifically has a DNR order IN PLACE. "Uh, oh well, uh, I do not know". Then let me speak to the nurse. "Uh, oh well, like they are all gone but the one duty nurse and she does not really know as she is with someone else now". So I ask him where they sent Dad. "Uh, like, we sent him to Gulf Hospital" WTF for I asked, that hospital is 12 miles from there and why not back to Lee Memorial. "Uh, I dunno, like I am new here" Of course anyone with a brain they did that because the meter runs at that hospital that can play stupid about the DNR order for a few days. I asked him if the DNR order was sent with Dad. "Uh, like, I could not find it and like, uh, no, we did not do that, uh, I think the nurse said no" So I fly down there the next day and Gulf is right on the way to where they live as Gulf is near the airport. I go in there and immediately see an entire wing of ICU patients of folks like Dad, the entire wing full of late 80s folks in ICU hooked up to machines. The hospice lady was there as I contacted her and she pulled me aside and said "By state law that the doctors and hospital administrators had passed I can not speak about what they do and how they never abide by the DNR orders if they can get away with it." After fighting with the doctors and providing certified copies of the DNR order issued through the law firm there 5 days later Dad was allowed to die in peace on MEMORIAL DAY 2010 to be with his Marine combat buddies that hit Saipan, Guam and had their troop carrier hit by a kamikazee offloading troops there. 3 months later all the bills that Medicare paid came in 122K for that visit. 15K a day for ICU HE NEVER WANTED.

This is the norm in America where 55% of all health care dollars are spent on 4% of the population doing exactly this in most cases. Let them die if that is their wish and you can play all your games and call it what you want.
Your beliefs on abortion and euthanasia are fairy tales.

Oh, so you are saying it's financially sound to abort and euthanise.

Cue patriotic music.

They just bring a tear to your eye, don't they?

 

[Gadawg73]

Tell us your views on euthanasia and abortion, gadawg.

I know you're one of the hardliners. Go for it.

The for profit medical care industry in America is opposed to euthanasia and practice that at all costs. My father, WWII combat Marine Captain had a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) ORDER drawn up by his attorney per Florida Statute in 2006 because of his suffering in the illness that he had. In 2007 he went into Lee Memorial Hospital in Fort Myers, Fla. and specifically had his DNR order in his hands when we took him to the emergency room. Lee County has a few hospitals there and are all under the same management. Dad was also a member of the Florida Right To Die Association, as most all WWII veterans are that want to do what is right and die with peace and not be a weak ass burden on society. Dad carried that card in his wallet and a copy was on file with Lee Memorial. In 2009 he passed out at the assisted living facility he lived in there. They took him to Lee Memorial again and he stayed for 5 days. We had to get his attorney there to threaten to sue them because they would not release him and had him hooked up to life saving devices in ECU for those 5 days. 76K bill submitted to Medicare. May 2010 he is doing bad and I get a call from the nurse at the assisted living facility at 5 pm on a Thursday night as they took him back to Lee Memorial as he was doing bad. They had the DNR order and copy of his RTD card given to the ambulance driver. I call down there on Friday morning and make arrangements to fly in asap from Atlanta. "Well, we are looking for the DNR order, it really needs to be updated" blah, stall, run up the tab, blah, blah blah. Fly in Saturday morning and they transfer Dad over to a nursing home across the street from lee Memorial 4 days and another 66K later for "rehab" which he DID NOT want. After fighting with them for a day I finally agreed to a few days of therapy BUT they agreed that the DNR order WOULD be honored. Next day I get a call from 3 different rehab therapists, occupational therapy, speech therapy and motor skills therapy. WTF does an 89 year old man need occupational therapy for? I fly back to Atlanta as all was well at the nursing home. 5 days later at 9 pm on another Thursday night in late May 2010 I get a call from an orderly at the nursing home. "Uh, your Dad, uh, he has been taken back to the hospital." I ask him what the hell for! He specifically has a DNR order IN PLACE. "Uh, oh well, uh, I do not know". Then let me speak to the nurse. "Uh, oh well, like they are all gone but the one duty nurse and she does not really know as she is with someone else now". So I ask him where they sent Dad. "Uh, like, we sent him to Gulf Hospital" WTF for I asked, that hospital is 12 miles from there and why not back to Lee Memorial. "Uh, I dunno, like I am new here" Of course anyone with a brain they did that because the meter runs at that hospital that can play stupid about the DNR order for a few days. I asked him if the DNR order was sent with Dad. "Uh, like, I could not find it and like, uh, no, we did not do that, uh, I think the nurse said no" So I fly down there the next day and Gulf is right on the way to where they live as Gulf is near the airport. I go in there and immediately see an entire wing of ICU patients of folks like Dad, the entire wing full of late 80s folks in ICU hooked up to machines. The hospice lady was there as I contacted her and she pulled me aside and said "By state law that the doctors and hospital administrators had passed I can not speak about what they do and how they never abide by the DNR orders if they can get away with it." After fighting with the doctors and providing certified copies of the DNR order issued through the law firm there 5 days later Dad was allowed to die in peace on MEMORIAL DAY 2010 to be with his Marine combat buddies that hit Saipan, Guam and had their troop carrier hit by a kamikazee offloading troops there. 3 months later all the bills that Medicare paid came in 122K for that visit. 15K a day for ICU HE NEVER WANTED.

This is the norm in America where 55% of all health care dollars are spent on 4% of the population doing exactly this in most cases. Let them die if that is their wish and you can play all your games and call it what you want.
Your beliefs on abortion and euthanasia are fairy tales.

Oh, so you are saying it's financially sound to abort and euthanise.

Cue patriotic music.

No, on sound ground I state that we are a nation OF LAWS, not men and their various changing like the wind religious beliefs and rank opinions.
Contracts are THE LAW. We are not a nation of you and your mob rule.

 

[Gadawg73]

The for profit medical care industry in America is opposed to euthanasia and practice that at all costs. My father, WWII combat Marine Captain had a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) ORDER drawn up by his attorney per Florida Statute in 2006 because of his suffering in the illness that he had. In 2007 he went into Lee Memorial Hospital in Fort Myers, Fla. and specifically had his DNR order in his hands when we took him to the emergency room. Lee County has a few hospitals there and are all under the same management. Dad was also a member of the Florida Right To Die Association, as most all WWII veterans are that want to do what is right and die with peace and not be a weak ass burden on society. Dad carried that card in his wallet and a copy was on file with Lee Memorial. In 2009 he passed out at the assisted living facility he lived in there. They took him to Lee Memorial again and he stayed for 5 days. We had to get his attorney there to threaten to sue them because they would not release him and had him hooked up to life saving devices in ECU for those 5 days. 76K bill submitted to Medicare. May 2010 he is doing bad and I get a call from the nurse at the assisted living facility at 5 pm on a Thursday night as they took him back to Lee Memorial as he was doing bad. They had the DNR order and copy of his RTD card given to the ambulance driver. I call down there on Friday morning and make arrangements to fly in asap from Atlanta. "Well, we are looking for the DNR order, it really needs to be updated" blah, stall, run up the tab, blah, blah blah. Fly in Saturday morning and they transfer Dad over to a nursing home across the street from lee Memorial 4 days and another 66K later for "rehab" which he DID NOT want. After fighting with them for a day I finally agreed to a few days of therapy BUT they agreed that the DNR order WOULD be honored. Next day I get a call from 3 different rehab therapists, occupational therapy, speech therapy and motor skills therapy. WTF does an 89 year old man need occupational therapy for? I fly back to Atlanta as all was well at the nursing home. 5 days later at 9 pm on another Thursday night in late May 2010 I get a call from an orderly at the nursing home. "Uh, your Dad, uh, he has been taken back to the hospital." I ask him what the hell for! He specifically has a DNR order IN PLACE. "Uh, oh well, uh, I do not know". Then let me speak to the nurse. "Uh, oh well, like they are all gone but the one duty nurse and she does not really know as she is with someone else now". So I ask him where they sent Dad. "Uh, like, we sent him to Gulf Hospital" WTF for I asked, that hospital is 12 miles from there and why not back to Lee Memorial. "Uh, I dunno, like I am new here" Of course anyone with a brain they did that because the meter runs at that hospital that can play stupid about the DNR order for a few days. I asked him if the DNR order was sent with Dad. "Uh, like, I could not find it and like, uh, no, we did not do that, uh, I think the nurse said no" So I fly down there the next day and Gulf is right on the way to where they live as Gulf is near the airport. I go in there and immediately see an entire wing of ICU patients of folks like Dad, the entire wing full of late 80s folks in ICU hooked up to machines. The hospice lady was there as I contacted her and she pulled me aside and said "By state law that the doctors and hospital administrators had passed I can not speak about what they do and how they never abide by the DNR orders if they can get away with it." After fighting with the doctors and providing certified copies of the DNR order issued through the law firm there 5 days later Dad was allowed to die in peace on MEMORIAL DAY 2010 to be with his Marine combat buddies that hit Saipan, Guam and had their troop carrier hit by a kamikazee offloading troops there. 3 months later all the bills that Medicare paid came in 122K for that visit. 15K a day for ICU HE NEVER WANTED.

This is the norm in America where 55% of all health care dollars are spent on 4% of the population doing exactly this in most cases. Let them die if that is their wish and you can play all your games and call it what you want.
Your beliefs on abortion and euthanasia are fairy tales.

Oh, so you are saying it's financially sound to abort and euthanise.

Cue patriotic music.

They just bring a tear to your eye, don't they?

Your warped concept of compassion is to deny others their rights all the while stealing their money doing so.
The closet liberal that you are.

 

[koshergrl]

The for profit medical care industry in America is opposed to euthanasia and practice that at all costs. My father, WWII combat Marine Captain had a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) ORDER drawn up by his attorney per Florida Statute in 2006 because of his suffering in the illness that he had. In 2007 he went into Lee Memorial Hospital in Fort Myers, Fla. and specifically had his DNR order in his hands when we took him to the emergency room. Lee County has a few hospitals there and are all under the same management. Dad was also a member of the Florida Right To Die Association, as most all WWII veterans are that want to do what is right and die with peace and not be a weak ass burden on society. Dad carried that card in his wallet and a copy was on file with Lee Memorial. In 2009 he passed out at the assisted living facility he lived in there. They took him to Lee Memorial again and he stayed for 5 days. We had to get his attorney there to threaten to sue them because they would not release him and had him hooked up to life saving devices in ECU for those 5 days. 76K bill submitted to Medicare. May 2010 he is doing bad and I get a call from the nurse at the assisted living facility at 5 pm on a Thursday night as they took him back to Lee Memorial as he was doing bad. They had the DNR order and copy of his RTD card given to the ambulance driver. I call down there on Friday morning and make arrangements to fly in asap from Atlanta. "Well, we are looking for the DNR order, it really needs to be updated" blah, stall, run up the tab, blah, blah blah. Fly in Saturday morning and they transfer Dad over to a nursing home across the street from lee Memorial 4 days and another 66K later for "rehab" which he DID NOT want. After fighting with them for a day I finally agreed to a few days of therapy BUT they agreed that the DNR order WOULD be honored. Next day I get a call from 3 different rehab therapists, occupational therapy, speech therapy and motor skills therapy. WTF does an 89 year old man need occupational therapy for? I fly back to Atlanta as all was well at the nursing home. 5 days later at 9 pm on another Thursday night in late May 2010 I get a call from an orderly at the nursing home. "Uh, your Dad, uh, he has been taken back to the hospital." I ask him what the hell for! He specifically has a DNR order IN PLACE. "Uh, oh well, uh, I do not know". Then let me speak to the nurse. "Uh, oh well, like they are all gone but the one duty nurse and she does not really know as she is with someone else now". So I ask him where they sent Dad. "Uh, like, we sent him to Gulf Hospital" WTF for I asked, that hospital is 12 miles from there and why not back to Lee Memorial. "Uh, I dunno, like I am new here" Of course anyone with a brain they did that because the meter runs at that hospital that can play stupid about the DNR order for a few days. I asked him if the DNR order was sent with Dad. "Uh, like, I could not find it and like, uh, no, we did not do that, uh, I think the nurse said no" So I fly down there the next day and Gulf is right on the way to where they live as Gulf is near the airport. I go in there and immediately see an entire wing of ICU patients of folks like Dad, the entire wing full of late 80s folks in ICU hooked up to machines. The hospice lady was there as I contacted her and she pulled me aside and said "By state law that the doctors and hospital administrators had passed I can not speak about what they do and how they never abide by the DNR orders if they can get away with it." After fighting with the doctors and providing certified copies of the DNR order issued through the law firm there 5 days later Dad was allowed to die in peace on MEMORIAL DAY 2010 to be with his Marine combat buddies that hit Saipan, Guam and had their troop carrier hit by a kamikazee offloading troops there. 3 months later all the bills that Medicare paid came in 122K for that visit. 15K a day for ICU HE NEVER WANTED.

This is the norm in America where 55% of all health care dollars are spent on 4% of the population doing exactly this in most cases. Let them die if that is their wish and you can play all your games and call it what you want.
Your beliefs on abortion and euthanasia are fairy tales.

Oh, so you are saying it's financially sound to abort and euthanise.

Cue patriotic music.

No, on sound ground I state that we are a nation OF LAWS, not men and their various changing like the wind religious beliefs and rank opinions.
Contracts are THE LAW. We are not a nation of you and your mob rule.

"
Nazi propaganda films portrayed euthanasia as a loving and compassionate act. In the Nazi propaganda film, "I Accuse! (Ich klage an!)", a woman with multiple sclerosis asks her husband who is a doctor to permanently relieve her of her suffering. He agrees to give her a lethal injection of morphine while his friend (who is also a doctor) plays tranquil music on the piano. At his trial he argues that he committed an act of mercy, not murder. He is acquitted.
The situation depicted in "I Accuse!" is almost identical to Dr. Jack Kevorkian's murder of a woman with multiple sclerosis by lethal injection only a few years ago. Like the character in the film, Kevorkian's attorney used emotional arguments to sway the jury, and Kevorkian was acquitted. The only difference is that Kevorkian did not play music for his victim."

Nazi Euthanasia Program

Be patriotic...support death camps!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYK3UQx6WV8]America the Beautiful Instrumental - live Greg Vail on Tenor Sax with Rob Mullins Band - YouTube[/ame]

 

[koshergrl]

"In the autumn of 1939, Adolf Hitler secretly authorized a medically administered program of “mercy death” code-named “Operation T4,” in reference to the address of the program’s Berlin headquarters at Tiergartenstrasse 4. Between 1940 and 1941 approximately 70,000 Austrian and German disabled people were killed under the T4 program, most via large-scale killing operations using poison gas."

Nazi Propaganda Against the Disabled: story, pictures and information - Fold3.com

 

[koshergrl]

"The so-called "Euthanasia" program was National Socialist Germany's first program of mass murder, predating the genocide of European Jewry, which we call the Holocaust, by approximately two years. The effort represented one of many radical eugenic measures which aimed to restore the racial "integrity" of the German nation. It endeavored to eliminate what eugenicists and their supporters considered "life unworthy of life": those individuals who--they believed--because of severe psychiatric, neurological, or physical disabilities represented at once a genetic and a financial burden upon German society and the state."

Right up gadawg's alley.



"...two doctors in a ward in an unidentified asylum. The existence of the patients in the ward is described as "life only as a burden." Such propaganda images were intended to develop public sympathy for the Euthanasia Program."
Nazi Propaganda Against the Disabled: story, pictures and information - Fold3.com

 

[Gadawg73]

Oh, so you are saying it's financially sound to abort and euthanise.

Cue patriotic music.

No, on sound ground I state that we are a nation OF LAWS, not men and their various changing like the wind religious beliefs and rank opinions.
Contracts are THE LAW. We are not a nation of you and your mob rule.

"
Nazi propaganda films portrayed euthanasia as a loving and compassionate act. In the Nazi propaganda film, "I Accuse! (Ich klage an!)", a woman with multiple sclerosis asks her husband who is a doctor to permanently relieve her of her suffering. He agrees to give her a lethal injection of morphine while his friend (who is also a doctor) plays tranquil music on the piano. At his trial he argues that he committed an act of mercy, not murder. He is acquitted.
The situation depicted in "I Accuse!" is almost identical to Dr. Jack Kevorkian's murder of a woman with multiple sclerosis by lethal injection only a few years ago. Like the character in the film, Kevorkian's attorney used emotional arguments to sway the jury, and Kevorkian was acquitted. The only difference is that Kevorkian did not play music for his victim."

Nazi Euthanasia Program

Be patriotic...support death camps!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYK3UQx6WV8]America the Beautiful Instrumental - live Greg Vail on Tenor Sax with Rob Mullins Band - YouTube[/ame]

And the Nazis also built great freeways.
What is your point?

 

[koshergrl]

Just pointing out the parallels.

We aren't talking about highways. We're talking about eugenics. And the progressives who promote negative eugenics today are the same as..no, worse...than the people who supported the eugenic practices of the Nazis.

You're worse because you have seen where it ends. And you still promote it and fight for the exact same policies that the Nazis employed.

Disgusting.

 

[Gadawg73]

Just pointing out the parallels.

We aren't talking about highways. We're talking about eugenics. And the progressives who promote negative eugenics today are the same as..no, worse...than the people who supported the eugenic practices of the Nazis.

You're worse because you have seen where it ends. And you still promote it and fight for the exact same policies that the Nazis employed.

Disgusting.

No, I, unlike you, fight for the rights of the individual.
You want the same rules and regulations for everyone.
Not everyone dies a lovely death. They have a right to die how THEY want to and when if they are ill and do not want life support to prop them up as vegetables.
But you favor that.
The closet socialist you are.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Just pointing out the parallels.

We aren't talking about highways. We're talking about eugenics. And the progressives who promote negative eugenics today are the same as..no, worse...than the people who supported the eugenic practices of the Nazis.

You're worse because you have seen where it ends. And you still promote it and fight for the exact same policies that the Nazis employed.

Disgusting.

Come on now, KG. I get your OP, but I think you may be getting carried away here. I've always been of the mind that the original eugenics movement was based upon a genuine wish for the benefit of humanity. I agree that eugenics is a flawed ideology, but those that believe in it are not inherently evil, as you seem to think. Eugenics is a response to a set of problems, and I have always understood that, as should you.

IMHO, the value of the lesson of the Nazis is not that pro-lifers are smart and just and pro-choicers are stupid and depraved. Instead, the value in the lesson lies in the contemplation of whether or not the potential dangers of eugenics policies outweigh any potential benefit. I believe that it does, and it is that regard that any comparison of any aspect of eugenics to it's worst possible outcome, is appropriate. Dedicated pro-choicers, the more extreme ones, will inevitably come to the support of some a eugenics policy when debating the subject, whether consciously or not, because the potential justifications will always mirror eugenics ideologies. Because Nazis represent the worst potential of eugenics, it is equally inevitable that their opponents will come to that comparison.

I imagine that, to those that advocate some form of eugenics, whatever the justification, must be exceedingly annoyed when the Nazis come up, but any serious discussion of the subject must invariably include it, and is therefore appropriate. I think you and I may simply disagree on why the inclusion is important.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Just pointing out the parallels.

We aren't talking about highways. We're talking about eugenics. And the progressives who promote negative eugenics today are the same as..no, worse...than the people who supported the eugenic practices of the Nazis.

You're worse because you have seen where it ends. And you still promote it and fight for the exact same policies that the Nazis employed.

Disgusting.

Come on now, KG. I get your OP, but I think you may be getting carried away here. I've always been of the mind that the original eugenics movement was based upon a genuine wish for the benefit of humanity. I agree that eugenics is a flawed ideology, but those that believe in it are not inherently evil, as you seem to think. Eugenics is a response to a set of problems, and I have always understood that, as should you.

As I've pointed out before, there's a reason why "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" is a cliche. If the result of your actions is the Holocaust, does it really matter whether you MEANT for that to happen? And if the result of your actions is massive evil, does it matter if YOU were inherently evil?

KG isn't necessarily saying that all pro-abortion people are inherently evil people who know where their attitudes will lead and want to go there. She's saying their ACTIONS and ATTITUDES are evil, and they are deluding themselves as to that fact. Their evil isn't in intention, but in willful ignorance.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" is another cliche that got that way for a good reason.

IMHO, the value of the lesson of the Nazis is not that pro-lifers are smart and just and pro-choicers are stupid and depraved. Instead, the value in the lesson lies in the contemplation of whether or not the potential dangers of eugenics policies outweigh any potential benefit. I believe that it does, and it is that regard that any comparison of any aspect of eugenics to it's worst possible outcome, is appropriate. Dedicated pro-choicers, the more extreme ones, will inevitably come to the support of some a eugenics policy when debating the subject, whether consciously or not, because the potential justifications will always mirror eugenics ideologies. Because Nazis represent the worst potential of eugenics, it is equally inevitable that their opponents will come to that comparison.

In my never-humble opinion, you need to get over the need to make this a personal attack on individual people, and recognize that it's about the attitudes and philosophies. No one said pro-lifers themselves were smarter or more just as human beings, or that pro-abortionists were more depraved (I'm afraid I DO have to say they're more stupid, but only because they choose to be). It's the attitudes and philosophies that are either more just or more depraved. It's depraved to say that disabled people are less valuable as human beings; it's depraved to say that human life is disposable.

I imagine that, to those that advocate some form of eugenics, whatever the justification, must be exceedingly annoyed when the Nazis come up, but any serious discussion of the subject must invariably include it, and is therefore appropriate. I think you and I may simply disagree on why the inclusion is important.

Oh, I imagine that it IS very annoying to those who advocate eugenics to have the realities of what they advocate thrown up in their faces, but I can't say that I really much give a shit. As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to advocate evil, you forfeit any claim on the respect of others.