An invitation to Old Guy on the subject of Noah's Flood.

[westwall]

Why do you guys waste time arguing with religious adherents? They are people of faith and as such your arguments don't affect them in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of the adherents to the AGW theory of global warming.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why do you guys waste time arguing with religious adherents? They are people of faith and as such your arguments don't affect them in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of the adherents to the AGW theory of global warming.

You are right that arguing with a believer is inadvisable. However refuting their disinformation is not arguing. Instead it is setting the record straight. Nothing will alter their belief but a failure to correct their misinformation means that it stands unchallenged.

 

[JoeB131]

Why do you guys waste time arguing with religious adherents? They are people of faith and as such your arguments don't affect them in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of the adherents to the AGW theory of global warming.

That would be the Global Warming that we can look out our windows and see happening?

 

[westwall]

Why do you guys waste time arguing with religious adherents? They are people of faith and as such your arguments don't affect them in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of the adherents to the AGW theory of global warming.

That would be the Global Warming that we can look out our windows and see happening?

Yep, that global warming...
Britain is on track to suffer its coldest March in more than 50 years as conservationists warned that the prolonged winter weather was damaging wildlife.

Forecasters said the latest cold spell was keeping average temperatures several degrees below the norm, with the next seven days to be chillier than usual.

The Central England Temperature – covering an area bounded by Lancashire, Bristol and London – shows temperatures have been 2.8C lower than normal.


Read more: UK weather and travel: Satellite maps show Britain is shivering now but basked in 24C last March | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


The east will be particularly cold over the weekend, German Weather Service DWD said on Friday.

Huge flocks of migratory birds, such as cranes, lapwings and golden plovers, have been returning to Germany over the last couple of weeks after spending the winter in warmer climes. Many of them have now turned around and left thanks to the cold weather.

A lack of food was driving the birds out of the country, Matthias Werner from the national ornithological institute said on Thursday. Hundreds of them made a brief stop-over in northern Hesse, he added.


Migrating birds leave frozen Germany - The Local

And then there's the admission by the head of the IPCC that there has been no warming for 17 years....


THE UN's climate change chief, Rajendra Pachauri, has acknowledged a 17-year pause in global temperature rises, confirmed recently by Britain's Met Office, but said it would need to last "30 to 40 years at least" to break the long-term global warming trend.

Dr Pachauri, the chairman of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, said that open discussion about controversial science and politically incorrect views was an essential part of tackling climate change.


Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

So yes, that global warming...that isn't happening...and hasn't been for the last 17 years.

 

[JoeB131]

Guy, you can scronge all day for denial websites, but 93% of climate scientists think that global warming is happening and humans are responsible.

This is based on solid science.

 

[westwall]

Guy, you can scronge all day for denial websites, but 93% of climate scientists think that global warming is happening and humans are responsible.

This is based on solid science.

I'm so happy to see you adhere to the high priests message brother. Of course when one looks at the 93% number one finds that it is in reality 74 of 79 climate scientists that were selected out of over 3000 respondents to the survey so that says a lot about their lack of bias eh?

Of course the head of the IPCC is the man who selects all of those scientific reports to publish in the bible of global warming and HE says that all of those scientists were wrong thanks to new data....

But hey go on with your fanatical religious beliefs...74 high priests vs 30,000 other scientists who have also looked at the data and said...uhhhh no, there is no evidence that man was the cause of the warming that stopped...17 years ago...

Here's some more science for you from the HEAD OF THE WARMIST SCIENTISTS. This is the guy that more than any other scientist set the AGW ball rolling and even HE says there has been no warming for the last 10 years.

Here is the study that was recently released.....real science by the head cheese himself..

He also lowers 2012 to the 9th warmest year on record instead of the warmest evah!


http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2013/20130115_Temperature2012.pdf

 

[JoeB131]

Guy, you can scronge all day for denial websites, but 93% of climate scientists think that global warming is happening and humans are responsible.

This is based on solid science.

I'm so happy to see you adhere to the high priests message brother. Of course when one looks at the 93% number one finds that it is in reality 74 of 79 climate scientists that were selected out of over 3000 respondents to the survey so that says a lot about their lack of bias eh?
]

Guy, talking to a Climate Change denier is like talking to a Holocaust Denier, a 9/11 Truther or an Obama Birther...

There's no amount of evidence that is going to convince them that Global Warming is real.

Because they won't be able to deal with it if it is.

Heck, forget the scientists. Even within my own life, what winters were like in Chicago in the 1970's when I was growing up and what they are like now...

I remember winters in Chicago, the snow would be so deep by Janauary that the sidewalks would look like World War I trenches.

Now we've had a winter here where we got no snow in January, and very little in Feb and March.

Not as bad as last march, when the first day of spring boasted 80 degree temperatures.

 

[Hollie]

The Bible is one complete book and was the product of the mind of God.

Except we know that to be false.

That is according to your judgment. Just how many times have you read the entire Bible?

My judgement regarding the bibles is unimportant. Truth and facts are important and in that sense, the factual errors in the bibles are very important.

You are actually incorrect about the bible being one complete book. The OT (you're aware that is Hebrew scripture, right), is differentiated by the NT.

 

[LittleNipper]

Guy, you can scronge all day for denial websites, but 93% of climate scientists think that global warming is happening and humans are responsible.

This is based on solid science.

I'm so happy to see you adhere to the high priests message brother. Of course when one looks at the 93% number one finds that it is in reality 74 of 79 climate scientists that were selected out of over 3000 respondents to the survey so that says a lot about their lack of bias eh?
]

Guy, talking to a Climate Change denier is like talking to a Holocaust Denier, a 9/11 Truther or an Obama Birther...

There's no amount of evidence that is going to convince them that Global Warming is real.

Because they won't be able to deal with it if it is.

Heck, forget the scientists. Even within my own life, what winters were like in Chicago in the 1970's when I was growing up and what they are like now...

I remember winters in Chicago, the snow would be so deep by Janauary that the sidewalks would look like World War I trenches.

Now we've had a winter here where we got no snow in January, and very little in Feb and March.

Not as bad as last march, when the first day of spring boasted 80 degree temperatures.

The reality is that Uniformitarians hold to a world where the FLOOD never happened and God does not exist. The reality is that it has taken 6000 years from the Flood for things to settle. Everyone driving electric cars tomorrow isn't going to revert anything. God can control the environment and God isn't going to bow for humanists. The climate stinks because we do. And when society repents then God will relent.

 

[Hollie]

One more time, how can a God who drowns babies be considered "Good"?

that is not a question related to Noah - which is it ?


Oigenerically, Mankind distinguishes its own set of values and in certain instances uses incarceration as well as Capital punishment in extreme cases - involving juveniles at young age that conceivably could extend to babies .... it is only logical for a God, particularly one that is an overseer to exercise the same behavior.


the point of the discussion is why God saw fit to exact punishment on those already that were expelled that did not seek Remittance and the reason for doing so in accordance to Noah.

as stated with Noah's death the last good person on earth would have perished and there was no longer a reason to continue the existence of an abject species. God interceded before Noah's death and gave Mankind a second chance.

to bad, but there are no guarantees to life in the Garden - evil is not tolerated, thank God.

There’s certainly reason to question the moral compass and ethical foundation of a god of “love and justice” who drowns the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, he allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. He will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and he will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

Well yeah, there’s a critical flaw in your reasoning there somewhere.

First, let me make an assumption that we are in agreement that god(s) have no attributes other than those that most theists apply to “him” (note, even the masculine phrasing), after acknowledging that he/her is beyond human comprehension. So how does a mere mortal apply these various attributes of a “loving”, “vengeful”, “just”, ect., etc., god(s) to the incomprehensible?

I have to acknowledge that attributes such as “Positive, negative, good, and bad”, are creations of man, no doubt about that. However, god being the creator of all ultimately makes him responsible for all. Things are the way they are because the gods want them precisely this way. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

Speaking of amorality as morality, how do you reconcile a god(s) who will wipe humanity (including little Johnny and Jane), from the planet because they were a disappointment to him and then leave only Noah and his immediate family to repopulate the planet.

Those inter-familial relationships (hint: breeding), are just a little… ummm… creepy.

Have you actually read the Bible or have you merely heard this. The judgement of God was brought against people who sacraficed babies to Baal and had forced sex with anyoe who walked into town. You have odd reasons to condem God.

I have solid reasons for condemning your gods in addition to those already delineated.

So, why do you think that little Johnny and Jane were deserving of the wrath of the gods?

From the very beginning of the genesis fable, we discover that god lied and Satan, (created by your gods), told the truth.

How ironic.

 

[Gadawg73]

I'm so happy to see you adhere to the high priests message brother. Of course when one looks at the 93% number one finds that it is in reality 74 of 79 climate scientists that were selected out of over 3000 respondents to the survey so that says a lot about their lack of bias eh?
]

Guy, talking to a Climate Change denier is like talking to a Holocaust Denier, a 9/11 Truther or an Obama Birther...

There's no amount of evidence that is going to convince them that Global Warming is real.

Because they won't be able to deal with it if it is.

Heck, forget the scientists. Even within my own life, what winters were like in Chicago in the 1970's when I was growing up and what they are like now...

I remember winters in Chicago, the snow would be so deep by Janauary that the sidewalks would look like World War I trenches.

Now we've had a winter here where we got no snow in January, and very little in Feb and March.

Not as bad as last march, when the first day of spring boasted 80 degree temperatures.

The reality is that Uniformitarians hold to a world where the FLOOD never happened and God does not exist. The reality is that it has taken 6000 years from the Flood for things to settle. Everyone driving electric cars tomorrow isn't going to revert anything. God can control the environment and God isn't going to bow for humanists. The climate stinks because we do. And when society repents then God will relent.

No, God does not control the environment and a long list of things.
Go down to Emory Children's Hospital in Atlanta and see the dozens of kids 6 and under that have cancer and will die.
God has no control over them either as if he did NONE OF THEM would die.

 

[westwall]

Guy, you can scronge all day for denial websites, but 93% of climate scientists think that global warming is happening and humans are responsible.

This is based on solid science.

I'm so happy to see you adhere to the high priests message brother. Of course when one looks at the 93% number one finds that it is in reality 74 of 79 climate scientists that were selected out of over 3000 respondents to the survey so that says a lot about their lack of bias eh?
]

Guy, talking to a Climate Change denier is like talking to a Holocaust Denier, a 9/11 Truther or an Obama Birther...

There's no amount of evidence that is going to convince them that Global Warming is real.

Because they won't be able to deal with it if it is.

Heck, forget the scientists. Even within my own life, what winters were like in Chicago in the 1970's when I was growing up and what they are like now...

I remember winters in Chicago, the snow would be so deep by Janauary that the sidewalks would look like World War I trenches.

Now we've had a winter here where we got no snow in January, and very little in Feb and March.

Not as bad as last march, when the first day of spring boasted 80 degree temperatures.

What was that mr. religious zealot? I presented you a peer reviewed scientific paper from THE man who started the whole ball rolling and HE is the one saying there has been no warming for 10 years. So does the IPCC (notoriously warmist), so does the UK's Meteorological Office (likewise a warmist group) so you see dear REVISIONIST (see, I can call you pejeroative too, it's actually accurate as well, considering all the "revising of 50 year old temperature records that Hansen was caught doing) you are just as bad as the organised religious people you are railing against.

As far as your anecdotal evidence go's try looking back farther than your paltry little lifespan...you will find, should you prove to be brave enough to look, that the temps 50 years ago were warmer than they are today. If you go even further back you will see that they were colder, etc. etc. etc.

But, by all means, don't let facts muddle up your dogma.

 

[JoeB131]

[

The reality is that Uniformitarians hold to a world where the FLOOD never happened and God does not exist. The reality is that it has taken 6000 years from the Flood for things to settle. Everyone driving electric cars tomorrow isn't going to revert anything. God can control the environment and God isn't going to bow for humanists. The climate stinks because we do. And when society repents then God will relent.

Sorry, Nippy, praying to sky pixies isn't going to fix the environment any more than putting a magic horseshoe above your door.

The Flood didn't happen because it is scientifically impossible.

 

[LittleNipper]

Why do you guys waste time arguing with religious adherents? They are people of faith and as such your arguments don't affect them in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of the adherents to the AGW theory of global warming.

You are right that arguing with a believer is inadvisable. However refuting their disinformation is not arguing. Instead it is setting the record straight. Nothing will alter their belief but a failure to correct their misinformation means that it stands unchallenged.

Well then, correct mistakes, but do not bring more mistakes to the discussion because they seem to uphold secular belief models...

 

[JoeB131]

For those interested in a SCIENTIFIC refutation of the Flood Fairy Tale, here is an interesting website that discusses it..

An Introduction to Biblical Nonsense

Appallingly, God drowned unborn children in the flood. This indisputably necessary consequence of his actions should ironically put a huge kink in the pro-life arguments from the church. God aborts countless unborn children for the questionable sins of their parents, yet the church expects society not to do the same? Infants and young children who do not possess the intellectual capacity to tell right from wrong were also casualties of the flood! How could they be among the wicked and evil? These are hardly the actions of the loving God depicted in the New Testament. The innocent children didn’t deserve the fate God inexcusably dealt them, end of story. Helpless animals also suffered the horrible fate of the children. However, given the apparently twisted love that God has for smells from animal sacrifices (Genesis 8:20-21), that last point shouldn’t have been very surprising to someone familiar with the Bible.

 

[JoeB131]

As the title of this section indicates, we’ll now look at a few problems created by the water supply, most notably the lack thereof. The amount necessary to produce a flood of global proportions far exceeds the current amount available on, in, and above the earth. While this doesn’t prove the water wasn’t present, the burden of proof is on those who defend the story to provide it with a plausible explanation. As the “fountains of the deep” (Genesis 7:11) contain only 1% of the necessary water, 99% would have to fall from the supposed sky ocean. Thus, the goal of covering every mountain with only forty days’ worth of precipitation would require a rainfall of six inches per minute, which is far too tremendous for the primitive ark to remain intact. In great contrast, we would typically expect a rainfall of only six inches per hour from a category five hurricane. One can only decide that this requirement is hardly feasible to carry out, especially when the heat generated by the impact of the raindrops on the flood surface would have been more than sufficient to boil the water and prevent it from rising.

An Introduction to Biblical Nonsense

As we all know, many animal species are indigenous only to certain regions of the globe. There would have been no rational means by which Noah could have traveled to Australia to catch two koalas, North America to trap two grizzly bears, Antarctica to kidnap two penguins, etc. Even if we allow a miraculous way for Noah to journey to these remote regions, we’re still looking at that enormous amount of time to venture across the earth for the sole purpose of preserving an insignificant percentage of animals that God could have easily recreated after the flood. As Noah and his family are already pressed for time with the ark’s assembly, successful completion of such a futile journey seems exceedingly unattainable.

 

[LittleNipper]

There’s certainly reason to question the moral compass and ethical foundation of a god of “love and justice” who drowns the world, sends plagues, brings down civilizations, he allows maniacal generals to slay thousands upon his command. He will allow vials of death and disease and chaos and mayhem to reign supreme, and he will let you go to hell for all time for not "choosing correctly".

Well yeah, there’s a critical flaw in your reasoning there somewhere.

First, let me make an assumption that we are in agreement that god(s) have no attributes other than those that most theists apply to “him” (note, even the masculine phrasing), after acknowledging that he/her is beyond human comprehension. So how does a mere mortal apply these various attributes of a “loving”, “vengeful”, “just”, ect., etc., god(s) to the incomprehensible?

I have to acknowledge that attributes such as “Positive, negative, good, and bad”, are creations of man, no doubt about that. However, god being the creator of all ultimately makes him responsible for all. Things are the way they are because the gods want them precisely this way. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

Speaking of amorality as morality, how do you reconcile a god(s) who will wipe humanity (including little Johnny and Jane), from the planet because they were a disappointment to him and then leave only Noah and his immediate family to repopulate the planet.

Those inter-familial relationships (hint: breeding), are just a little… ummm… creepy.

Have you actually read the Bible or have you merely heard this. The judgement of God was brought against people who sacraficed babies to Baal and had forced sex with anyoe who walked into town. You have odd reasons to condem God.

I have solid reasons for condemning your gods in addition to those already delineated.

So, why do you think that little Johnny and Jane were deserving of the wrath of the gods?

From the very beginning of the genesis fable, we discover that god lied and Satan, (created by your gods), told the truth.

How ironic.

So what makes you imagine little Johnny and Jane even existed? All God needed to do was withhold the miracle of birth for say 13 years prior to the Flood, and He would be dealing with only sinful adults (who should have known something was up). They would have all drowned and gone to exactly where they deserved to go. I mean Noah's sons all seem to have been rather old before they even had children. Certainly they were already on the Ark. Do you even realize that according to the New Testament Noah preached to that generation concerning the coming judgment while he constructed the Ark? I pray that God will work on your seemingly cold unrepentant heart. Satan is the liar and he also is the accuser. Satan points his finger and says, "See, see ---- look at how sinful he/she is... Let me take care of them now!"

 

[Hollie]

Have you actually read the Bible or have you merely heard this. The judgement of God was brought against people who sacraficed babies to Baal and had forced sex with anyoe who walked into town. You have odd reasons to condem God.

I have solid reasons for condemning your gods in addition to those already delineated.

So, why do you think that little Johnny and Jane were deserving of the wrath of the gods?

From the very beginning of the genesis fable, we discover that god lied and Satan, (created by your gods), told the truth.

How ironic.

So what makes you imagine little Johnny and Jane even existed? All God needed to do was withhold the miracle of birth for say 13 years prior to the Flood, and He would be dealing with only sinful adults (who should have known something was up). They would have all drowned and gone to exactly where they deserved to go. I mean Noah's sons all seem to have been rather old before they even had children. Certainly they were already on the Ark. Do you even realize that according to the New Testament Noah preached to that generation concerning the coming judgment while he constructed the Ark? I pray that God will work on your seemingly cold unrepentant heart. Satan is the liar and he also is the accuser. Satan points his finger and says, "See, see ---- look at how sinful he/she is... Let me take care of them now!"

So... are you suggesting that you know the gawds really did "withhold the miracle of birth for say 13 years prior to the Flood"?

Was the planet inhabited only by those 18 years and older when the gawds launched Noah on his pleasure cruise to nowhere?

 

[westwall]

[

The reality is that Uniformitarians hold to a world where the FLOOD never happened and God does not exist. The reality is that it has taken 6000 years from the Flood for things to settle. Everyone driving electric cars tomorrow isn't going to revert anything. God can control the environment and God isn't going to bow for humanists. The climate stinks because we do. And when society repents then God will relent.

Sorry, Nippy, praying to sky pixies isn't going to fix the environment any more than putting a magic horseshoe above your door.

The Flood didn't happen because it is scientifically impossible.

I beg to differ. There most certainly WAS a flood. Just not the "Waterworld" type flood that is bandied about by the faithful and unfaithful alike. 14,000 years ago when the continental ice sheets began to melt there most certainly was a flood.

Mankind was congregated along the coasts and rivers (like he is now) and, as the waters rose from the melting ice, man was driven out of his ancestral homes worldwide. The ocean levels rose at least 120 meters over a period of around 8,000 years ending roughly 6,000 years ago based on the geological evidence at hand. Most was gradual but there would have been periods where the flooding would have been accelerated and it is no doubt one of those times that initiated the ancestral memory of a great flood in mans history.

Virtually all peoples around the world have tales of a great flood in their past, so it was certainly a worldwide event.

 

[Derideo_Te]

[

The reality is that Uniformitarians hold to a world where the FLOOD never happened and God does not exist. The reality is that it has taken 6000 years from the Flood for things to settle. Everyone driving electric cars tomorrow isn't going to revert anything. God can control the environment and God isn't going to bow for humanists. The climate stinks because we do. And when society repents then God will relent.

Sorry, Nippy, praying to sky pixies isn't going to fix the environment any more than putting a magic horseshoe above your door.

The Flood didn't happen because it is scientifically impossible.

I beg to differ. There most certainly WAS a flood. Just not the "Waterworld" type flood that is bandied about by the faithful and unfaithful alike. 14,000 years ago when the continental ice sheets began to melt there most certainly was a flood.

Mankind was congregated along the coasts and rivers (like he is now) and, as the waters rose from the melting ice, man was driven out of his ancestral homes worldwide. The ocean levels rose at least 120 meters over a period of around 8,000 years ending roughly 6,000 years ago based on the geological evidence at hand. Most was gradual but there would have been periods where the flooding would have been accelerated and it is no doubt one of those times that initiated the ancestral memory of a great flood in mans history.

Virtually all peoples around the world have tales of a great flood in their past, so it was certainly a worldwide event.

You are describing a gradual rise of sea levels over a period of 2000 years. The biblical flood is described as a cataclysmic event that occurred over a period of a mere 40 days.