An interesting fact about treason

[MaggieMae]

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

The United States was referred to in the plural, clearly pertaining to the separate and individual states making up the Union. ihopehefails is correct.

Clearly, Article III discusses judicial power of the United States as a collective body politic. If it was intended to mean individual states, the clause would have been preceded by the words "any of [the states]" or "levying war against any of them..." etc.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

The United States was referred to in the plural, clearly pertaining to the separate and individual states making up the Union. ihopehefails is correct.

no she isn't.... she's as dumb as toast and spends her time intentionally trolling the board.

states means the collective united states.

As does everything within The Constitution of the United States of America, except where specified.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

The United States was referred to in the plural, clearly pertaining to the separate and individual states making up the Union. ihopehefails is correct.

no she isn't.... she's as dumb as toast and spends her time intentionally trolling the board.

states means the collective united states.

If that were true the United States would be referred to in the singular.

The United State of America?

 

[MaggieMae]

Your interpretation ignores the first phrase, Kevin. The term being defined is treason against the entity known as the United States.

My interpretation doesn't ignore it at all. My interpretation simply acknowledges that the phrase "United States" is qualified by being referred to in the plural rather than the singular.

your interpretation is irrelevant.

words have meanings....

as does caselaw.
i would hate to think you so hate your country and only have fealty to your state.

more than that, i'd hate to think you intentionally choose to misconstrue things to advance some agenda.

I first read that as "coleslaw." Yep, Kevin's interpretation deserves to be chopped up all right. Actually, I wonder where he wanted to go with that nonsense in the first place.

 

[MaggieMae]

My interpretation doesn't ignore it at all. My interpretation simply acknowledges that the phrase "United States" is qualified by being referred to in the plural rather than the singular.

Hardly qualified, but an affectation of late 18th and early 19th Century formal writing when referring to the Federal entity. That aside, treason can only be committed against the sovereign. Are you arguing that the Federal constitution outlining and controlling the Federal government applies only to the individual States, and does not create a new, sovereign entity?

Their referring to the United States in the plural wasn't simply a way of speaking back then, it was the way they felt about the country. The Union was comprised of sovereign and independent states, so the phrase "United States" was in reference to those states. Only after the great centralization of power that occurred during and after the Civil War did "United States" come to mean the federal government.

The states were considered the sovereigns having only ceded a limited number of responsibilities and powers to the federal government and retaining the rest to themselves.

No, that's not what I'm arguing at all. Only that that particular Section of the Constitution is referring to the states rather than the federal government.

Jefferson sought to prosecute Aaron Burr for treason for organizing an expedition of men aimed at taking Spanish lands west of the Mississippi. He was tried in federal court and acquitted because there was no proof that Burr intended to take parts of Texas and the Louisiana Purchase for himself in his endeavor to start his own country.

The first test of the "treason" clause would not have been prosecuted in FEDERAL court if the United States had not been the complainant.

 

[MaggieMae]

What are you referring to when you say the U.S.?

The entity, singular, that is known as the nation of the United States of America.

Well, like I said, I don't accept that there is an entity called the U.S. outside of either the states or the federal government.

It takes two-thirds of the state legislatures to ratify a Constitutional Amendment after the US Congress gives its approval. The individual states are indeed very much involved in their central (federal) entity in that regard, whereas with respect to the normal federal legislation process, it is done by states' elected officials (also set forth in the Constitution).

 

[MaggieMae]

No, the federal government exists to work on behalf of the states.

I see the problem here then.

So when the Constitution refers to treason as treason against the "United States", what does that mean to you since you are not of the opinion that the "United States" as an entity exists or is a sovereign against which one can commit treason?

It's clearly referring to the states.

NO, it is not. Just Google definition of the United States of America, and every single dictionary or thesaurus defines it as being composed of all of the 50 states as a single entity. Before Alaska and Hawaii joined the union, those definitions often also included the contiguous boundaries in a definition.

 

[MaggieMae]

Really? Then why does it not simply say the "States", or even the "united States"? Why the proper noun form "United States"?

I've stated many times that the term "United States" used back then would be in reference to the states.

in other words, you're making it up as you go along.

I realize this thread is two days old, but this argument is simply ridiculous. We have a United States Supreme Court made up of only nine justices, not 50.

 

[MaggieMae]

in other words, you're making it up as you go along.

No.

yes. you are.

He seems to be confusing the Articles of Confederation (which did give blanket sovereignty to the states) with the Constitution which is specific as to what rights belong to the states.

 

[MaggieMae]

At the risk of repeating my sig....

".... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government... it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security." Thomas Jefferson - The Declaration of Independence.

Americans are not only allowed to overthrow our government, it is our duty to do so. It says so in the Declaration. Therefore, it is not treasonous to overthrow our government.

The Declaration of Independence is not law. The Constitution is law. That said, I think your quote is precisely where Kevin wanted to take this thread but got hung up on the vernacular.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

no she isn't.... she's as dumb as toast and spends her time intentionally trolling the board.

states means the collective united states.

If that were true the United States would be referred to in the singular.

The United State of America?

No. It would say:

""Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against it..."

Or something to that effect.

 

[Dante]

Treason is defined as revolution against one of the states of the United states and not the federal government.

I hope you never go out of the house without a hazmat suit on.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No.

yes. you are.

He seems to be confusing the Articles of Confederation (which did give blanket sovereignty to the states) with the Constitution which is specific as to what rights belong to the states.

The Constitution is specific to what powers the federal government has, and specific to what powers the states do not have.

 

[Dante]

Section 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

 

[ihopehefails]

from the us constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.

it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.

no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.

 

[Liability]

from the us constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.

it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.

no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.

The UNITED States. The Union used to be spoke of in the plural. Nowadays we refer to the United States as "it" (singular) because we lost (somewhere along the way) the notion that we are a combination of states forming the Union. Nowadays we think of ourselves as citizens of the one Nation, first, not as citizens of our own sovereign States, first.

But treason as spelled out in the Constitution and Statute refers to us in the PLURAL because it was intended to refer to the Federal Union. The WHOLE United States. A person commits treason against that UNITED entity which was spoken of in the PLURAL.

There is really no basis in fact or in law to assume that treason would need to be defined AT ALL in our Constitution if it referred only to acts directed against ONE of the States. They were each sovereigns (and still are) in their own right. And they could make laws prohibiting such efforts directed against THEM without having to have it mentioned at all in the Constitution of the whole country.

 

[MaggieMae]

from the us constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.

it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.

no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.

Picking the tense that suits yours and Kevin's position on this is becoming downright stupid. When you refer to men and women (plural), do you use the pronoun "him and her" or "THEM" ?? And speaking of the word "men," until the last 30 years or so, the term was INTENDED to mean both genders. Not only is the English language funny in many ways, the framers of the Constitution wrote as they spoke and were not students of English grammar. (Oops, I said "funny" -- another word that can mean two entirely different things.)

 

[MaggieMae]

from the us constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.

it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.

no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.

The UNITED States. The Union used to be spoke of in the plural. Nowadays we refer to the United States as "it" (singular) because we lost (somewhere along the way) the notion that we are a combination of states forming the Union. Nowadays we think of ourselves as citizens of the one Nation, first, not as citizens of our own sovereign States, first.

But treason as spelled out in the Constitution and Statute refers to us in the PLURAL because it was intended to refer to the Federal Union. The WHOLE United States. A person commits treason against that UNITED entity which was spoken of in the PLURAL.

There is really no basis in fact or in law to assume that treason would need to be defined AT ALL in our Constitution if it referred only to acts directed against ONE of the States. They were each sovereigns (and still are) in their own right. And they could make laws prohibiting such efforts directed against THEM without having to have it mentioned at all in the Constitution of the whole country.

You're absolutely right.

 

[ihopehefails]

from the us constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.

it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.

no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.

Picking the tense that suits yours and Kevin's position on this is becoming downright stupid. When you refer to men and women (plural), do you use the pronoun "him and her" or "THEM" ?? And speaking of the word "men," until the last 30 years or so, the term was INTENDED to mean both genders. Not only is the English language funny in many ways, the framers of the Constitution wrote as they spoke and were not students of English grammar. (Oops, I said "funny" -- another word that can mean two entirely different things.)

I didn't pick the tense. The people who wrote it did. They could have said the government of the United States which refers to the federal government which but they said 'them' which refers to the individual states that compose the union. Why would they not be precise in a legal document? How many lawyers do you know write a legal document in such a way to substitute functional language for fancy language? They don't because they know they will have to go to court one day so they use precise language so it can be interpret the way they want it to be interpreted it.

 

[ihopehefails]

from the us constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

ABS -- you betray a similarity in thought processes. you googled the word treason and did a whack and cut job on the wiki article and the dictionary definition.

it looks like a misread of the constitution is what this thread is based on.

no misread. It says 'them' witch is plural witch can only refer to one of the the states of the union unless their is more than one federal government.

The UNITED States. The Union used to be spoke of in the plural. Nowadays we refer to the United States as "it" (singular) because we lost (somewhere along the way) the notion that we are a combination of states forming the Union. Nowadays we think of ourselves as citizens of the one Nation, first, not as citizens of our own sovereign States, first.

But treason as spelled out in the Constitution and Statute refers to us in the PLURAL because it was intended to refer to the Federal Union. The WHOLE United States. A person commits treason against that UNITED entity which was spoken of in the PLURAL.

There is really no basis in fact or in law to assume that treason would need to be defined AT ALL in our Constitution if it referred only to acts directed against ONE of the States. They were each sovereigns (and still are) in their own right. And they could make laws prohibiting such efforts directed against THEM without having to have it mentioned at all in the Constitution of the whole country.

I know each state can define treason the way it wants but my point was was that treason was not defined as war against the federal government but war against the collection of states that compose the union. It establishes that the sovreign unit was the complete collection of the states and not the federal government. It is not considered treason to wage war against the federal government itself but only if you wage war against the states or any assortment of them. The civil war was seen as treason simply because the south waged war against other states but it wasn't all the states (since you have to subtract the southern states from that number) so treason is defined as waging war against the states or any assortment of them.