Americans killed in a single day: Al-Qaeda vs Confederacy

[Dante]

Kevin, Kevin, you idiots lost the bloody war. This is one nation, and shall remain so. It cost the blood of 600,000 to establish that, and the fact that all men are equal. The whole basis of the Confederacy's rebellion was immoral. Justice prevailed, and a much better nation was hammered out on the forge of the Civil War.

bull-fucking-shit.

The North didn't free its own slaves, didn't start the war over slavery, and did nothing to makes blacks equal 'til what, the 1960s?

The Union fought no war over slavery and human rights. If they had, you might have an argument. But they didn't.

Documents in archives in South Carolina, the state that initiated hostilities, would prove you wrong.

but How facts backfire - The Boston Globe

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin, Kevin, you idiots lost the bloody war. This is one nation, and shall remain so. It cost the blood of 600,000 to establish that, and the fact that all men are equal. The whole basis of the Confederacy's rebellion was immoral. Justice prevailed, and a much better nation was hammered out on the forge of the Civil War.

Us "idiots" in Ohio fought for the Union, bud. We didn't "lose" anything other than our dignity for helping to force the southern states to remain in the Union against their will.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Principles and aspirations often clash with the real world.

You never addressed the point of amnesty. Why did the President grant amnesty?

It doesn't matter why the President granted amnesty. What matters is the principle itself. If we accept, as the founders did, that the right to self-government is a natural right, or a god-given right if you're a religious person, then it doesn't matter what a king, president, prime minister, chief of police, or anyone else says. Our nation was founded on the belief in the natural, or god-given, right to self-government.

My point, all along, has been that it's hypocritical that our government, which was formed under the idea of a natural right to self-government, denied that natural right when a group of states wanted to break away from us. Now, you can say that treason is in the eye of the beholder, and you'd be right because we can all have our own idea about what constitutes treason, but you can hardly deny that the principle of self-government was denied to the Confederacy by the U.S. government under Abraham Lincoln.

If you accept the natural right to self-government, then you have no reason to brand the Confederates traitors. If you don't accept the natural right to self-government then I'd say you have to brand the Colonists as traitors. To say that the Colonists weren't traitors, but that the Confederates were, is gross hypocrisy in my opinion.

I hear this very clear ["It doesn't matter why the President granted amnesty. What matters is...if you're a religious person...Our nation was founded on the belief in the natural, or god-given, right to self-government."] and I weep for you.


Things can often seem to be hypocritical in the absence of nuance and context. (I think you are misusing the term 'hypocritical' here)
I like this definition:
Hypocrisy 1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

There was nothing feigned when an amnesty was granted to the Confederate traitors. The principles on what the United States was founded were not betrayed -- by the Union.


We do NOT get to have our own ideas over what treason means. Treason has a specific meaning. Some treasonous acts can be heroic, while others are cowardly. Some treasonous acts can be principled and yet others can transcend the meanings. We cannot in your words 'all have our own idea about what constitutes treason' as what legally constitutes treason is laid out in the US Constitution...

Treason: This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.

The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence[sic] is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. -http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/t103.htm

......what constitutes treason here is not open to interpretation.


I never said treason is in the eye of the beholder. Benedict Arnold or his defenders could claim his acts were not treason, and that would be your 'eye of the beholder'

The treasonous acts I speak of can later be overlooked by all sides involved depending on how things work out. Both sides agree the act of treason will be overlooked for a greater good. In the examples I gave, Britain ceded territory, and in the other the United States granted an amnesty to the Confederates - for treasonous acts.

----

Well if you want to bring up the Constitutional definition of treason, then perhaps you should it read it a bit closer. It says "levying war against them," meaning the individual states. You see there's only one federal government, so referring to it in the plural makes no sense. There are, however, many states. So by that definition, Abraham Lincoln and the U.S. government committed treason in levying war against the southern states. Especially taking into consideration the fact that Lincoln never acknowledged that they had left the Union, only that they were in a state of rebellion.

 

[Dante]

Kevin, Kevin, you idiots lost the bloody war. This is one nation, and shall remain so. It cost the blood of 600,000 to establish that, and the fact that all men are equal. The whole basis of the Confederacy's rebellion was immoral. Justice prevailed, and a much better nation was hammered out on the forge of the Civil War.

Us "idiots" in Ohio fought for the Union, bud. We didn't "lose" anything other than our dignity for helping to force the southern states to remain in the Union against their will.

You disagree with case law, with the Constitution and with the Union cause in the Civil War. What do you like about America?

 

[Dante]

Well if you want to bring up the Constitutional definition of treason, then perhaps you should it read it a bit closer. It says "levying war against them," meaning the individual states. You see there's only one federal government, so referring to it in the plural makes no sense. There are, however, many states. So by that definition, Abraham Lincoln and the U.S. government committed treason in levying war against the southern states. Especially taking into consideration the fact that Lincoln never acknowledged that they had left the Union, only that they were in a state of rebellion.

Is this where we take the train off the tracks?

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Rebellion is treason, is it not? An amnesty was granted. The Confederacy betrayed the United States. The Confederacy waged war against the United States.

 

[CurveLight]

Americans killed in a single day: Al-Qaeda vs Confederacy

Guess who cased the death of 7,000 Americans in a single day -- in no less than 20 minutes? Yep you guessed it right, the Confederacy. Yet we still have traitorous Americans proudly flying the Confederate Flag.

I went down south and saw all those forts, and statues celebrating the Confederacy. I wonder, will Al-Qaeda be celebrated? Maybe not, they only killed 3,000 people, not all Americans and it took a lot longer than 20 minutes.

Oh that is just brilliant, a confederacy vs. taliban analogy, wow, you have really outdone yourself. I guess the union should have planned better at Antietam.

Do you ever stop sucking dick long enough to think begore you post?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin, Kevin, you idiots lost the bloody war. This is one nation, and shall remain so. It cost the blood of 600,000 to establish that, and the fact that all men are equal. The whole basis of the Confederacy's rebellion was immoral. Justice prevailed, and a much better nation was hammered out on the forge of the Civil War.

Us "idiots" in Ohio fought for the Union, bud. We didn't "lose" anything other than our dignity for helping to force the southern states to remain in the Union against their will.

You disagree with case law, with the Constitution and with the Union cause in the Civil War. What do you like about America?

The purple mountains' majesty.

 

[CurveLight]

Americans killed in a single day: Al-Qaeda vs Confederacy

Guess who cased the death of 7,000 Americans in a single day -- in no less than 20 minutes? Yep you guessed it right, the Confederacy. Yet we still have traitorous Americans proudly flying the Confederate Flag.

I went down south and saw all those forts, and statues celebrating the Confederacy. I wonder, will Al-Qaeda be celebrated? Maybe not, they only killed 3,000 people, not all Americans and it took a lot longer than 20 minutes.

Oh that is just brilliant, a confederacy vs. taliban analogy, wow, you have really outdone yourself. I guess the union should have planned better at Antietam.

Not an analogy. More of a comparison. You may draw the conclusions you want, but I did not intend to establish similarity by analogy.

Synonyms:*similarity, likeness, equivalence, parallel, correspondence, correlation, comparison, resemblance, consonance, relation
Synonym for analogy (n) - antonym for analogy (n) - Thesaurus - MSN Encarta

 

[SW2SILVER]

By the way, "Confederates " were Americans. Just thought I'd add, the north killed plenty of Americans from the south, and...?

 

[Dante]

By the way, "Confederates " were Americans. Just thought I'd add, the north killed plenty of Americans from the south, and...?

there are plenty of clueless threads you are welcome to play clueless in.

The Confederacy was an act of treason against the United States. They were granted an amnesty.

 

[Dante]

Us "idiots" in Ohio fought for the Union, bud. We didn't "lose" anything other than our dignity for helping to force the southern states to remain in the Union against their will.

You disagree with case law, with the Constitution and with the Union cause in the Civil War. What do you like about America?

The purple mountains' majesty.

From intellectual in an ivory tower to populist bullshit? I will say it took you longer than most.

credit where credit is due

 

[Dante]

Oh that is just brilliant, a confederacy vs. taliban analogy, wow, you have really outdone yourself. I guess the union should have planned better at Antietam.

Not an analogy. More of a comparison. You may draw the conclusions you want, but I did not intend to establish similarity by analogy.

Synonyms:*similarity, likeness, equivalence, parallel, correspondence, correlation, comparison, resemblance, consonance, relation
Synonym for analogy (n) - antonym for analogy (n) - Thesaurus - MSN Encarta

look up differences with distinctions and then don't bother getting back to me, okay?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You disagree with case law, with the Constitution and with the Union cause in the Civil War. What do you like about America?

The purple mountains' majesty.

From intellectual in an ivory tower to populist bullshit? I will say it took you longer than most.

credit where credit is due

Just giving a stupid question a fitting answer.

 

[Dante]

The purple mountains' majesty.

From intellectual in an ivory tower to populist bullshit? I will say it took you longer than most.

credit where credit is due

Just giving a stupid question a fitting answer.

Stupid question? You appear to be at odds with most of the legal decisions made in America. You have questioned the legality of the very Constitution you try and hide behind. You seem to be agreeing that the Confederacy was right, they just lost the war. The Confederacy waged a war against the United States.

What about the United States and it's history involving the law and the constitution do you like?

 

[SW2SILVER]

Clueless ? Aren't you high and mighty. It's about traitors? To you, perhaps, not to me. You split hairs, they still were Americans, regardless of whether or not you like their politics or morality. But don’t let that stop you from being a pompous jerk, do go on.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

From intellectual in an ivory tower to populist bullshit? I will say it took you longer than most.

credit where credit is due

Just giving a stupid question a fitting answer.

Stupid question? You appear to be at odds with most of the legal decisions made in America. You have questioned the legality of the very Constitution you try and hide behind. You seem to be agreeing that the Confederacy was right, they just lost the war. The Confederacy waged a war against the United States.

What about the United States and it's history involving the law and the constitution do you like?

Yes, stupid question, because you're once again confusing America for the U.S. government. What do I like about the U.S. government? Not much.

 

[Dante]

Clueless ? Aren't you high and mighty. It's about traitors? To you, perhaps, not to me. You split hairs, they still were Americans, regardless of whether or not you like their politics or morality. But don’t let that stop you from being a pompous jerk, do go on.

The more perfect, permanent union that is the United States, is the nation I love -- flaws and all. I consider internal enemies to be traitors.

But the Confederacy was granted an amnesty. Their symbols were not. What they stood for caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American citizens and others.

 

[rdean]

Did al Qaeda torture their slaves?

 

[Dante]

Just giving a stupid question a fitting answer.

Stupid question? You appear to be at odds with most of the legal decisions made in America. You have questioned the legality of the very Constitution you try and hide behind. You seem to be agreeing that the Confederacy was right, they just lost the war. The Confederacy waged a war against the United States.

What about the United States and it's history involving the law and the constitution do you like?

Yes, stupid question, because you're once again confusing America for the U.S. government. What do I like about the U.S. government? Not much.

The Confederate Congress responded to the Battle of Fort Sumter by formally declaring war on the United States in May 1861 — calling it "The War between the Confederate States of America and the United States of America".[72] The Union government never declared war...-The Confederate Congress declared war on the United States

I do not confuse the United States of America with the government of the United States. We live in a representative republic. The government is elected to represent the people. Terrorist sympathizers I know have said they love America but not the US government.

 

[Dante]

What do I like about the U.S. government? Not much.

What US government? The current one alone, or all of them since George Washington and John Adams?