America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

In post # 346, NOTFOOLDBYW was called out by a poster:

"But regardless, now that that mistake of your has been discovered, it is time for you to admit that this NATION, was founded as a Christian nation, and to drop all this talk about how the government was set up to be non sectarian. Because that is irrelevant to the thread topic."

That poster had your number.

Here he is, a thousand posts later, hoping that I will validate childish stupidity. As long as we're laughing at him, he has every Right to feel good at making comedic posts. They are not being read. He has nothing (under any of his personas) that are applicable to the OP.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

CHRISTIAN AMERICA VERSUS SECULAR AMERICA Post # 317

Part 1 of more to come IF the atheists are confident enough to wait and debate this aspect.

I was asked what the differences were between A Christian nation and the current system we have (which, through mostly United States Supreme Court decisions is a secular Federal Legislative Democracy owned and controlled by multinational corporations.

From the outset of our Republic, it was under attack. The Illuminati had begun developing their globalist agenda. From 1715 to about the time the Constitution was ratified, we had the period known as The Enlightenment. Things had not gone so well for the framers as they were divided between the Federalists and anti - Federalists when they debated the Constitution's ratification.

Under the Articles of Confederation, the United States was marginally united; near financial ruin by 1787. The major voice of the Federalists was James Madison along with Alexander Hamilton and the man who was the heart and soul of the Anti-Federalists was Patrick Henry.

Though the Federalists prevailed, the Anti-Federalists (of which Thomas Jefferson sided with) got a consolation prize: the addition of the Bill of Rights. During the Constitutional Convention Patrick Henry addressed the delegates:

"Twenty-three years ago was I supposed a traitor to my country," he said. "I may be thought suspicious when I say our privileges and rights are in danger...But, sir, suspicion is a virtue, as long as its object is the preservation of the public good."

Henry suspected that at least some of those behind the Constitution had an ulterior motive. "When the American spirit was in its youth...liberty...was then the primary object," he said. "But now...the American spirit...is about to convert this country Unit() a powerful and mighty empire....There will be no checks, no real balances, in this government."

Patrick Henry Smells a Rat | AMERICAN HERITAGE

Patrick Henry complained that he smelled a rat, but ended up embracing the Constitution as it was the best they could get (or so George Washington told Henry.)

So, here we are, 231 years later, our Constitution in ruins, the people divided, Liberty mocked and ridiculed and we have a debate upon what principles the Republic rests. The liberals like to claim that the leaders of The Enlightenment were the only people the framers relied on in creating the Constitution. They invoke names like C. L. J. de S. Montesquieu, D. Hume, and Adam Smith and J.-J. Rousseau. And, actually, truth be told, none of those guys were against Christianity; they simply thought one religion was as good as another (which is irrelevant to the Constitution.) The reality is:

"In a now-famous study published in the American Political Science Review on the influence of European writers on the political literature of the founding, Donald S. Lutz reported that the Bible was cited more frequently than any European writer or even any European school of thought. The Bible, he found, accounted for approximately one-third of the citations in the literature he surveyed. The book of Deuteronomy alone was the most frequently cited work, followed by Montesquieu’s The Spirit of the Laws, the most cited secular source. In fact, Deuteronomy was referenced nearly twice as often as Locke’s writings, and the Apostle Paul was mentioned about as frequently as Montesquieu."

The Bible in the Political Culture of the American Founding – SHEAR

I could do hundreds of examples of exactly how many of the framers felt, but one of the people who said it so unequivocally was when John Adams wrote a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813 and said

“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

I will have to finish this in parts as it looks like this will be lengthy if the subject is to covered so thorough that the atheists cannot refute

 

[Porter Rockwell]

CHRISTIAN AMERICA VERSUS SECULAR AMERICA

Part 2 of more to come regardless of how many trolls try to prevent this.

See post # 317 to get the first part of this subject:

Critics continue to want to focus on parts of this which we've already touched on. They can read the thread. If you want to know the differences between a Christian Nation and a Secular Nation, the first place to look is at how our system works. Under our de jure / legal / constitutional Republic we had three branches of government. They were the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive and their powers were pretty much held in check until the passing of all the remaining founders and framers.

Once a law is passed the Legislative branch it goes to the president who signs the legislation into law. The courts then interpret the law. Once the United States Supreme Court weighs in and rules on what the law means, that was supposed to be the law. That is not how it ended up working out. That might have been the rat that Patrick Henry thought he smelled. Regardless of whether a framer was Federalist or Anti-Federalist, they realized the danger of not following that principle. Thomas Jefferson said this:

"On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823.

Now, we get past this incessant back and forth B.S. about what founder / framer said what and get down to what we ended up with. And we ended up with the courts interpreting the law in accordance with the common law which is tied to Anglo - Saxon jurisprudence - which in turn, has its roots in Christianity.

Once the United States Supreme Court rules on a question regarding the Constitution, that is the law unless / until the Constitution is legally amended. When we allow the high Court to reinterpret their own decisions, it is not only one giant clusterph^(k , but it makes it impossible for you to know what is legal or illegal since the law can change on a whim. Stare decisis / precedent means let the decision stand. So, in order to know what the law REALLY means, the rightful way is to go to the FIRST time the United States Supreme Court rules on an issue and that is the legitimate ruling on the law. Now we can proceed to build our case:

"There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people. While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. Comm., 11 Serg. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that, "Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; * * * not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.

..If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters note the following: The form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.."

HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. U.S. 143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226
Feb. 29, 1892

Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. (1892)

You can read the entire Court ruling and see, exactly what is meant by a Christian Nation. It is NOT about a theorcacy; it's not about forced religion; it's not even a mandate for you to be compelled to do anything you find objectionable.

I will finish this train of thought in my next posting on this aspect

 

[Porter Rockwell]

My first post on this thread contained nary a single personal insult. See it right here:

23883177(01)

How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one if the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit. [6]. Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

The record shows that it was Porter Rockwell who flung poo first.

23883177(01)

Ignorance is bliss, brother and you seem to enjoy it.

Then Porter Rockwell falsely accused me of doing what he did.

23883177(01)

Sir, you began name calling.

After setting the record straight for Saint Rockwell I guess he didn’t want to be bothered with the facts.

23883177(01)

I'm not reading this freaking thread over.

With this post he won’t need to.

23883695(01)

Other posters can read the thread and see I'm being honest and accurate.

sorry, Saint Rockwell.... Other posters can read it right here and see plain as day that you are neither honest or accurate.

An idiot walks into a Christian conversation, starts hurling stuff like bullshit and what happened??? The people who asked me to start the thread didn't get involved in your tirades. You're a ******* idiot wanting me to validate you. You follow me around like a lonely puppy. Hey man, now it's you and me. You screwed this thread; I owe you nothing, so you will just have to keep reliving your insults.

You call people morons, liars, etc. and you play innocent. But, we have over 1000 posts with plenty of times you attacked other posters. You need to act like you got an IQ higher than your shoe size and leave me the Hell alone. Quite frankly I'm sick of you following me around like you want to polish my knob because you are NOT getting any more attention.

 

[BreezeWood]

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING

* (hint) - it's called boot licking.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

1. THE CONSTITUTION AND THE BIBLE
   
   In post # 2, I cited the state constitutions requiring one to be a Christian in order to hold elective office and in the ending paragraph, we discussed Article VI Paragraph III of the U.S. Constitution which requires all U.S. Senators and Representatives to be bound by an Oath or Affirmation. This is an oath, NOT a test (which would be prohibited.)
   
   It seems pretty clear that the framers had no objection to the states requiring their politicians to be Christians. The other question is, can we find implications that the Constitution has biblical connections therein?
   
   If you look at the early state constitutions Maryland had a tax "for the support of the Christian religion." Funny thing, THAT was not attacked by the framers in the Constitution, so there is lot to be said about what is NOT in the Constitution. NOTHING in the Constitution hampers the states from requiring their politicians to be Christians NOR taxing the people to educate the people regarding the Christian religion.
   
   In a letter to Rev. Jasper Adams in 1833 regarding the "relations" Christianity has with the social, civil, and political "institutions" of America, Chief Justice John Marshall wrote:
   
   "No person, I believe questions in importance of religion to the happiness of man even during the existence of this world... The American population is entirely Christian & with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed if, with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity & did not refer to it exhibit relations with it"
   
   I mention that because it is one man's opinion (just as Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was a private letter, neither of which are mandatory or even persuasive authority in a court of law.) BTW, Jefferson's separation of church and state means 180 degrees opposite of what the left claims.
   
   Somewhere in the middle is the answer and I will continue to point these things out. There will be more posts on the biblical references in the Constitution.
   America was still founded as a Christian nation Part 2 of this entry
2. 
   I wanted to address one thing for Penelope before I move along to prove my original thesis.
   
   The first Naturalization Act specified that only white people could become citizens in this country. Still people poured in by the millions to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. Misguided Christians thought we could share our unique heritage and historical experiences with the rest of the world. Modern Christianity even began incorporating pagan customs into the church. The Catholics "christianizing" (for lack of a more descriptive adjective) Saturnalia and calling it Christmas is a good example.
   
   
   Penelope also found fault with the mention of Jews and I did call them out in the thread America was founded as a white nation (in the race forum here.) The Jews invested heavily into America. It was a sure bet. They also invested heavily in slavery; they were war profiteers; they even tried to influence the Christian founders and framers. The way it's dealt with is to make the Jews as bullet-proof as the other protected classes. Hang a label around it and dare anyone to call them out equally to be held accountable. And then the denials... there weren't that many of them, for example. When you were a Haym Solomon (the colonists version of Mike Bloomberg) it don't make many to make a big financial impact.
   
   Add to that this guy was also a Freemason that had the ear of fellow Mason, George Washington. But, Penelope would be well advised that God worked through a lot of evil people to get his work done. Saul of Tarsus (aka Paul) was a tax collector as was Matthew while Judas Iscariot (an ethnic non-Israelite "Jew") were apostles... though Jesus did know that Judas would betray him for thirty pieces of silver. I've always thought Jesus did that to illustrate the danger of befriending profiteers and banksters. But, I digress.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW AKA anynameyouwish and "BREEZEWOOD" if you are following that whizzing contest

Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:

"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb **** not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.

And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, LUNATICS, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.

SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS, DAILY HARASSMENT, THE GUY IS A COWARD AND NOT A MAN OF HIS WORD

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#1288 reply to #1287

Jefferson’s New Testaments dunghills

Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 24 January 1814

“in the New testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. it is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.“

Founders Online: Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 24 January 1814

Post #78”There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one of the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit.“ NotfooledbyW.

#1287

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit

#1288 That is not true. Porter Rockwell is misrepresenting what I wrote:

Here it is again:

#78.

Due to popular request I am starting a thread covering the fact that America was begun as a Christian nation.

There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one if the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit.

• Jefferson was most comfortable with Deism, rational religion, and Unitarianism.[3] He was sympathetic to and in general agreement with the moral precepts of Christianity.[4] He considered the teachings of Jesus as having "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man,"[5] yet he held that the pure teachings of Jesus appeared to have been appropriated by some of Jesus' early followers, I resulting in a Bible that contained both "diamonds" of wisdom and the "dung" of ancient political agendas.[6]. Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

#1288 Porter Rockwell is not telling the truth when he writes that I claimed that Christianity is bullshit.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION IX

In this latest series of posts, the only matter we have not covered is to eliminate the bogus arguments the left, especially atheists, have tried to use in order to deny that America was founded as a Christian nation. In the course of this thread this series presents nothing new, but gives us a chance to put the objections into one place.

One atheist site I visited was quick to point to the Treaty of Tripoli as proof that America was not a Christian nation. One more time, let us address this hilarious diversion from the truth. In 1796, the United States Senate entered into a treaty with Tripoli

"The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli was one of several negotiated with during the “Barbary Powers War,” a war against Muslim terrorists that began toward the end of the Revolutionary War and continued through the Presidencies of George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. 1 During America’s original “War on Terror,” five Muslim countries (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli, and Turkey) were making indiscriminate terrorist attacks against what they claimed to be five “Christian” nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States). The conflict so escalated that in 1801, Tripoli formally declared war against the United States, 2 thus constituting America’s first official war as an established independent nation."

Treaty of Tripoli - WallBuilders

In that treaty some otherwise damning language was used which stated:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation..(Article 11)."

There are some things to note here:

1) There is a lot of dispute as to whether or not Article 11 is even in the original document presented to the Muslims in Arabic

2) According to Wikipedia:

"A prominent member of Adams' cabinet, Secretary of War James McHenry, claimed that he protested the language of Article 11 before its ratification. He wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Oliver Wolcott, Jr., September 26, 1800: "The Senate, my good friend, and I said so at the time, ought never to have ratified the treaty alluded to, with the declaration that 'the government of the United States, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.' What else is it founded on? This act always appeared to me like trampling upon the cross. I do not recollect that Barlow was even reprimanded for this outrage upon the government and religion." (This objection may have been the reason that Article 11 is not in the Arabic version, but that is irrelevant)

"The treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli over President Thomas Jefferson's refusal to submit to the Pasha's demands for increased payments."

Consequently another treaty was issued making the Treaty of Tripoli moot. It is NOT law regardless of its meaning. However, WHY that wording was there in the first place is our next issue

3) Quoting Wikipedia again:

"According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced."

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia

So, the Treaty of Tripoli was not a statute; it had created no legal obligations on the part of the citizenry toward government NOR any obligation of the government toward the citizenry. In short, it did not establish that America was Christian or not...

4) In a best case scenario, even IF such a claim could be made, it was nullified by two events:

A) the treaty was rescinded and
B) the United States Supreme Court would weigh in on whether or not we are a Christian nation. There are NO treaties in effect that contradict the United States Supreme Court on this point. AND, the United States Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the law is. Google Marbury v. Madison if you have doubts. So, what the United States Supreme Court ruled became law:

"But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation.

...
Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that thet are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.' 'We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare,' etc.; 'And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.'

If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential

...These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S.457 (1892)

RECTOR, ETC., OF HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. UNITED STATES. | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

I cannot stress the importance of every person reading this to access and read that case in its entirety. An 1892 opinion of the United States Supreme Court trumps a rescinded treaty 10 times out of 10 times. Ask your attorney which bears the greatest legal weight.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW AKA anynameyouwish and "BREEZEWOOD" if you are following that whizzing contest

Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:

"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb **** not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.

And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, LUNATICS, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.

SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS, DAILY HARASSMENT, THE GUY IS A COWARD AND NOT A MAN OF HIS WORD

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING

Crybaby cannot stop the truth. He did run off a LOT of posters with his "bullshit" remark. In post #528 another poster told our board troll, in a nice way, he is not qualified to be in this discussion. Here is a copy and paste to him:

It’s cyclical

History is littered with people who pay lip service. The thing about Christianity is that it’s a journey. It’s not necessarily a straight line. At any point we can be moving towards God, we can be moving away from God or we can be static in our progression. And just because someone is moving towards God that doesn’t mean he will always be moving towards God.

I understand that some people believe we are no longer a nation that follows Christian values but it’s a little more complicated than that.

Troll, you and your alter egos are not smart enough to be IN this discussion. LEAVE while you can. My next posts will destroy your credibility forever. You cannot respect others; cannot post on topic and you lack insight.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL 11 Feb 2020 Update (not counting the counter posts opposing the troll for many days. His own posts testify against him)

aka anynameyouwish, Breezewood and the regular troll - all one true and everliving TROLL.

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1158 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 213 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018,1033, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1047, 1049, 1052, 1063, 1074, 1076, 1079, 1080, 1083, 1090, 1096, 1097, 1108, 1111, 1124, 1132, 1140, 1146, 1147, 1152, 1153, 1154

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019 - and I have not recorded the people who have disagreed with him past this point

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW more than 100 times personally. There are roughly 500 posts that have revolved around this one poster. TO DATE NOBODY IS SUPPORTING HIS CRAP AND HE'S EVEN SUNK SO LOW AS TO HAVE SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the ******* quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#1292 reply to #1287

It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

After Porter Rockwell later posted a link and provided the date and to whom the Jefferson letter was addressed, It verified to me that I was correct. It verified the quote was fake and it was a misquote of a very serious degree.

The issue from that point on has been that Porter Rockwell knows It is a misquote, but stands by a lie about Jefferson’s religious beliefs, to the point when asked for a “direct” quote by me, Porter Rockwell reposts the fake quote as if it came directly from Jefferson ‘in writing’ himself.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#1293 reply to #1291

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such.

#1293. This is Porter Rockwell’s refusal to accept the truth. In the misquote, Jefferson said he was a Christian. In the direct, full and true quote, Jefferson said he was a Christian, DIFFERENT FROM the multitudes of Christians that would call him an infidel. Why different from???

Porter Rockwell will not ask that question because he must deny the truth.

Why? is because it is a fact that for Jefferson’s entire adult life he NEVER EVER NEVER stated his belief that Jesus was the Son of God or that the Bible was the Word of GOD.

So are we to believe Porter Rockwell in his own words and in links he posts, that one must believe that Jesus was the Son of God and that the Bible was the Word of GOD in order to be the type of Christian that founded America?

#538.

.
Who wrote the rules saying what one must believe or disbelieve IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD (WHICH IS IN THE BIBLE)?????

#1293. How can Jefferson be a Christian when he did not believe Jesus was the Son of God?

#513.

Claiming to be a Christian in a poll is not the same as giving of yourself, volunteering, being a good citizen, and a good steward of the Word of God.

#1293. Jefferson’s cut up the WORD OF GOD to separate the diamonds from the dung. That can’t be being a good steward of the WORD OF GOD can it?

#1169.

America Was Founded As A Christian Nation By Christians That Believed That The Bible Is The Word Of God There is more fodder for those who may be on the fence

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Christian Army killing houses 1781

Gnadenhutten massacre - Wikipedia

In September 1781, British-allied Indians, primarily Wyandot and Lenape, forced the Christian Indians and missionaries from the Moravian villages. They took them northwest toward Lake Erie to a new village, called "Captive Town", on the Sandusky River. The British took the missionaries David Zeisbergerand John Heckewelder under guard back to Detroit, where they tried the two men on charges of treason. The British suspected them of providing military intelligence to the American garrison at Fort Pitt. The missionaries were acquitted.

The Indians at Captive Town were going hungry because of insufficient rations. In February 1782, more than 100 returned to their old Moravian villages to harvest the crops and collect stored food they had been forced to leave behind. The frontier war was still raging. In early March 1782, the Lenape were surprised by a raiding party of 160 Pennsylvania militia led by Lieutenant Colonel David Williamson. The American militia rounded up the Christian Lenape and accused them of taking part in raids into Pennsylvania. Although the Lenape denied the charges, the militia held a council and voted to kill them. Refusing to take part, some militiamen left the area. One of those who opposed the killing of the Moravian Lenape was Obadiah Holmes, Jr. He wrote:

"one Nathan Rollins & brother [who] had had a father & uncle killed took the lead in murdering the Indians, ...& Nathan Rollins had tomahawked nineteen of the poor Moravians, & after it was over he sat down & cried, & said it was no satisfaction for the loss of his father & uncle after all".[8]

After the Lenape were told of the American militia's vote, they requested time to prepare for death and spent the night praying and singing hymns. They were held in two buildings, one for men and one for women and children.

The next morning on 8 March, the militia brought the Lenape to one of two "killing houses", one for men and the other for women and children. The American militia tied the Indians, stunned them with mallet blows to the head, and killed them with fatal scalping cuts. In all, the militia murdered and scalped 28 men, 29 women, and 39 children. Two Indian boys, one of whom had been scalped, survived to tell of the massacre. The militia piled the bodies in the mission buildings and burned the village down. They also burned the other abandoned Moravian villages.

The American militia looted the villages prior to their burning. The plunder, which needed 80 horses to carry, included everything which the people had held: furs for trade, pewter, tea sets, and clothing. A few years later, missionary Heckewelder collected the remains of the Lenape and buried them in a mound on the southern side of the village.


Porter Rockwell suggests Revolutionary America held higher moral values back then compared to today because our ethnic and religious values have been eroded by secularists and humanists.

I think there is toom for debate on that.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL 11 Feb 2020 Update (not counting the counter posts opposing the troll for many days. His own posts testify against him)

aka anynameyouwish, Breezewood and the regular troll - all one true and everliving TROLL.

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1158 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 213 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018,1033, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1047, 1049, 1052, 1063, 1074, 1076, 1079, 1080, 1083, 1090, 1096, 1097, 1108, 1111, 1124, 1132, 1140, 1146, 1147, 1152, 1153, 1154

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019 - and I have not recorded the people who have disagreed with him past this point

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW more than 100 times personally. There are roughly 500 posts that have revolved around this one poster. TO DATE NOBODY IS SUPPORTING HIS CRAP AND HE'S EVEN SUNK SO LOW AS TO HAVE SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the ******* quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Porter Rockwell]

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION X

This entire thread was derailed when one anti-Christ zealot seized upon a quote I relied on that inserted a single word, but it did not change the meaning of the sentence. And so, today, we get to discuss the troll's very favorite subject. He feels like if he had keep the charade going about Thomas Jefferson, he has "won" something. But, this is about perspective.

Our resident troll hates, loathes, and despises white Christians. Oh, how the atheists pretending to be Americans would love to be right. But they are not.

Thomas Jefferson was one man. He was NOT THE FOUNDING FATHERS. He was a conflicted man and historians have decided to put their labels on them. I can put a few labels on him as well: He was a conflicted sinner and a reprobate that wanted to do the right thing, but had a hard time knowing what the right thing was. His religious views changed over time. For example:

Thomas Jefferson signed the Declaration of Independence "with a firm reliance on Divine Providence" which is a pledge that acknowledges a Christian God proven in posts I, II, and VII of this series of postings. In that same year, Jefferson signed on to help draft the constitution of the state of Virginia which included the following language:

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

As governor of Virginia, Jefferson had to take an oath of office that included the words "so help me God."

Founders Online: 98. A Bill Prescribing the Oath of Fidelity, and the Oaths of …

Jefferson was accused of being many things and the claims seemed to bother him, but one account puts it this way:

"Jefferson read broadly on the topic, including studying different religions, and while he often claimed that religion was a private matter “between Man & his God,” he frequently discussed religion

...Jefferson’s views on an afterlife developed over time, and historians disagree on what he believed in this regard

...As he aged, Jefferson spoke passionately about the prospect of meeting loved ones in heaven

Jefferson identified himself as a Christian:

“I am a Christian,”

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

NOBODY can say with 100 percent accuracy what Jefferson was or was not at any given moment. Our troll remains convinced that he and he alone can judge what Jefferson was throughout 100 percent of his life. But, the facts remain: Jefferson signed legal documents and took oaths acknowledging a Christian God. He used his own money to make sure that anyone who did not own a Bible would have one. He signed onto the state constitution if Virginia (a government document) stating that we have a "mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance."

In 1776 Jefferson aligned himself with Christians for their support. He was just another man, a sinner at best. BTW, it is not unusual for God to use even evil men to achieve a Godly end. See this as an example:

https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/margin-notes/when-god-uses-evil-for-good

In any event, Jefferson presented himself in 1776 as one of the boys and THAT is indisputable. He went through the motions. Whether Jefferson was a Christian OR the most evil son of a ***** his detractors accused him of being is irrelevant. He is ONE MAN, not all the founding fathers. You draw your own conclusions.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.


I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.