Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[rightwinger]

I entered the workforce in the 1970s

I saw what a pre-affirmative action workforce looked like

I saw women who graduated college with me being offered secretarial positions, med school was for men, nursing school for women. Women could be teachers but were not given opportunities to be principals

Blacks were considered not to have the “right stuff” to be managers and were pushed towards menial jobs

Did affirmative action help?
Sure did

 

[rightwinger]

Try to keep up
It’s not too hard

You too have benefitted from affirmative action
You just won’t admit it

Sassy is a pretty smart girl. I don’t think she needs AA to get ahead.

Unless she is a secretary or nurse.......SmellyIrishAss benefitted from the opportunities affirmative action brought

Maybe you could prove that, winger? Let me explain your problem, you don't know the first thing about what I have done in my career,not one single thing so take your BS and stick it up your ass old man. Your crap is old and tiresome

I know you married for money and never accomplished anything on your own

Well no, I left my career to raise our children. See, winger once again you're pulling shit outa your ass and flinging it hoping something sticks.

My husband didn't have a pot to piss in when we married (massive student loan debt), together we have built what we have, no help, nothing, we did it. You should try it sometime instead of being ate up with jealousy over those of us that did. But perhaps you're just incapable of doing it....yes that is likely it

So you never accomplished anything of your own and owe everything you have to your husband

Then you have the gall to mock women who actually fought against discrimination in the workforce

 

[Wry Catcher]

Affirmative action hurts those more qualified...needs to end

Dingbat ^^^

Q. [for white people] Would you feel safe if every police officer, deputy sheriff, prosecuting attorney, public defender, fireman, EMT,school teacher, principle and member of the Board of Education in your home town was black?

Yes or no

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Just saw this video in my feed and was quite shocked at the stats it puts forward.

Stats are useful, but we cannot forget to keep our thinking rooted in principle - that is the navigational system that keeps our course true. Freedom of association is a fundamental right of every person; thus affirmative action is a violation of individual liberty. One cannot claim to live in a free society while such policies are enforced.

I wholly support the right of private business to discriminate as they see fit, just as I support the free speech of deplorable racists. If you support the latter but not the former, you are resigning yourself to cognitive dissonance, as they are both rooted in the inherent rights of the individual.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Whites never had AA. In fact, European Americans used to discriminate against other European Americans years ago. It took my father a long time to get into the bricklayers union because of his Polish descent, and they told him that's why he was being rejected

Women, including white women, along with minorities are considered "socially and economically disadvantaged". This does not mean intellectually disadvantaged, it means that these groups have not been able to obtain the same gains that others have because of discrimination not unlike the discrimination that your dad experienced with one difference. Both groups, women and minorities were excluded from laws that allowed the majority people to prosper.

True, but again, over a half-century ago. What does that have to do with today? If you are discriminated against for any reason and can prove it, you can sue whoever it is that discriminated against you.

 

[rightwinger]

All Americans have benefitted from Affirmative Action

It has been a major success

Yes it has, for losers.

So you admit whites are losers for having 400 years of AA?

Whites never had AA. In fact, European Americans used to discriminate against other European Americans years ago. It took my father a long time to get into the bricklayers union because of his Polish descent, and they told him that's why he was being rejected.

Of course white males had AA. They had 400 plus years of it.

They were the only ones considered for top level positions

Women and minorities were considered not qualified

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I entered the workforce in the 1970s

I saw what a pre-affirmative action workforce looked like

I saw women who graduated college with me being offered secretarial positions, med school was for men, nursing school for women. Women could be teachers but were not given opportunities to be principals

Blacks were considered not to have the “right stuff” to be managers and were pushed towards menial jobs

Did affirmative action help?
Sure did

No, AA is quotas. In other words, don't hire or promote the best person, hire and promote based on race or gender.

AA is a constitutional violation of equal protection under the law.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

All Americans have benefitted from Affirmative Action

It has been a major success

Yes it has, for losers.

So you admit whites are losers for having 400 years of AA?

Whites never had AA. In fact, European Americans used to discriminate against other European Americans years ago. It took my father a long time to get into the bricklayers union because of his Polish descent, and they told him that's why he was being rejected.

Of course white males had AA. They had 400 plus years of it.

They were the only ones considered for top level positions

Women and minorities were considered not qualified

Anti-discrimination Laws

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Q. [for white people] Would you feel safe if every police officer, deputy sheriff, prosecuting attorney, public defender, fireman, EMT,school teacher, principle and member of the Board of Education in your home town was black?

Yes or no

As the question was intended, unequivocally “Yes”. However, I do not feel safe with the existence of police officers, deputy sheriffs, prosecuting attorneys, public defenders, or Board of Education employees at any level, regardless of their race, as they are all agents of an inherently immoral institution. Fire and EMT, however, are not cause for alarm.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If there is any truth to what you say, then you should be against AA more than anybody.

And what baggage do you speak of? Making bad decisions like having kids before you're actually an adult yourself has nothing to do with baggage, it has to do with making bad decisions. Spending money you make instead of saving or investing it is not baggage left behind to you. It's making bad decisions in life.

Why should I be against the idea of 400 years of Black AA?

None of your business really but yes some of that stuff you mentioned.

Because if you are in anyway successful, AA makes you look bad. Everybody assumes you are successful because of AA instead of your own abilities and achievements. You didn't earn your own way, you were given a way by government. It's insulting to any successful person.

It's just like when you made that comment about my beverage store owner. You automatically assume his success was not because of hard work and learning, his success was because somebody gave him a loan that wouldn't loan money to blacks. I can assure you that if he read this blog and knew we were talking about him, he would be totally insulted. Even at his age, he still works night and day. When not at the store, he drives out 40 miles to his hotel to help his wife with chores she can't handle. They aren't that much younger than I am.

Makes you look bad? I dont care what people think. You should have learned that as an adult.

I didnt assume anything. As a matter of fact I pointed out he was one person and said lets pretend like he was an entire race. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

AA makes a lot of people look bad because it's assumed (like you did with my beverage store guy) they didn't or couldn't do it on their own. Any self-made person would be offended by that. They would be offended even more if somebody did make it to their level of success because of AA instead of doing it on their own.

Again if you were successful yourself you would realize what people think of you doesnt matter. Youre telling on yourself here.

Not at all. I would be insulted if somebody told me the only reason I'm where I'm at today is because I'm white. Forget the fact I chose not to have children because of the expense. Forget the fact that I wake up every morning and go to work. Forget the fact I've overcome all odds against me. I'm only doing okay because I'm white.

How could I not be offended by such an accusation?

 

[rightwinger]

I entered the workforce in the 1970s

I saw what a pre-affirmative action workforce looked like

I saw women who graduated college with me being offered secretarial positions, med school was for men, nursing school for women. Women could be teachers but were not given opportunities to be principals

Blacks were considered not to have the “right stuff” to be managers and were pushed towards menial jobs

Did affirmative action help?
Sure did

No, AA is quotas. In other words, don't hire or promote the best person, hire and promote based on race or gender.

AA is a constitutional violation of equal protection under the law.

AA is more than quotas. Quotas have not been used in decades. It is about providing opportunities. Opportunities that did not exist before affirmative action

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Why should I be against the idea of 400 years of Black AA?

None of your business really but yes some of that stuff you mentioned.

Because if you are in anyway successful, AA makes you look bad. Everybody assumes you are successful because of AA instead of your own abilities and achievements. You didn't earn your own way, you were given a way by government. It's insulting to any successful person.

It's just like when you made that comment about my beverage store owner. You automatically assume his success was not because of hard work and learning, his success was because somebody gave him a loan that wouldn't loan money to blacks. I can assure you that if he read this blog and knew we were talking about him, he would be totally insulted. Even at his age, he still works night and day. When not at the store, he drives out 40 miles to his hotel to help his wife with chores she can't handle. They aren't that much younger than I am.

Makes you look bad? I dont care what people think. You should have learned that as an adult.

I didnt assume anything. As a matter of fact I pointed out he was one person and said lets pretend like he was an entire race. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

AA makes a lot of people look bad because it's assumed (like you did with my beverage store guy) they didn't or couldn't do it on their own. Any self-made person would be offended by that. They would be offended even more if somebody did make it to their level of success because of AA instead of doing it on their own.

Again if you were successful yourself you would realize what people think of you doesnt matter. Youre telling on yourself here.

Not at all. I would be insulted if somebody told me the only reason I'm where I'm at today is because I'm white. Forget the fact I chose not to have children because of the expense. Forget the fact that I wake up every morning and go to work. Forget the fact I've overcome all odds against me. I'm only doing okay because I'm white.

How could I not be offended by such an accusation?

You forsake having children because of the expense? And yet, despite your prudence, you are made to contribute a portion of uour earnings toward a public school system you have no need of, are you not? You do not feel you can afford the financial burden of your own children, but must bear the burden of others’ children under threat of punishment. This does not seem appropriate.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Just saw this video in my feed and was quite shocked at the stats it puts forward.

Stats are useful, but we cannot forget to keep our thinking rooted in principle - that is the navigational system that keeps our course true. Freedom of association is a fundamental right of every person; thus affirmative action is a violation of individual liberty. One cannot claim to live in a free society while such policies are enforced.

I wholly support the right of private business to discriminate as they see fit, just as I support the free speech of deplorable racists. If you support the latter but not the former, you are resigning yourself to cognitive dissonance, as they are both rooted in the inherent rights of the individual.

Bullshit. Your opinion is a construct for violence! And your opinion is out of sync with our most treasured documents.

If one reads the Preamble as a vision statement of our founders, and a mission statement left to future leaders, and Jefferson famous phrase in the DoI that:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

then your ideal nation is not the United States of America.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Because if you are in anyway successful, AA makes you look bad. Everybody assumes you are successful because of AA instead of your own abilities and achievements. You didn't earn your own way, you were given a way by government. It's insulting to any successful person.

It's just like when you made that comment about my beverage store owner. You automatically assume his success was not because of hard work and learning, his success was because somebody gave him a loan that wouldn't loan money to blacks. I can assure you that if he read this blog and knew we were talking about him, he would be totally insulted. Even at his age, he still works night and day. When not at the store, he drives out 40 miles to his hotel to help his wife with chores she can't handle. They aren't that much younger than I am.

Makes you look bad? I dont care what people think. You should have learned that as an adult.

I didnt assume anything. As a matter of fact I pointed out he was one person and said lets pretend like he was an entire race. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

AA makes a lot of people look bad because it's assumed (like you did with my beverage store guy) they didn't or couldn't do it on their own. Any self-made person would be offended by that. They would be offended even more if somebody did make it to their level of success because of AA instead of doing it on their own.

Again if you were successful yourself you would realize what people think of you doesnt matter. Youre telling on yourself here.

Not at all. I would be insulted if somebody told me the only reason I'm where I'm at today is because I'm white. Forget the fact I chose not to have children because of the expense. Forget the fact that I wake up every morning and go to work. Forget the fact I've overcome all odds against me. I'm only doing okay because I'm white.

How could I not be offended by such an accusation?

You forsake having children because of the expense? And yet, despite your prudence, you are made to contribute a portion of uour earnings toward a public school system you have no need of, are you not? You do not feel you can afford the financial burden of your own children, but must bear the burden of others’ children under threat of punishment. This does not seem appropriate.

It's not and I'm totally against it, but little I can do about it either.

It's not that I mind paying my "fair share" but in our state, you are taxed by your property value and not usage of the education system. In other words I may be paying twice as much into the school system as my neighbor down the street with four kids in the system. I don't see the equity in it and it's totally unfair.

But yes, I opted not to have a family because of the cost. I invested my money instead, and while I'm just a working blue collar guy, I have my apartments that I take care of after work and on weekends. It will be of great value to me when I retire in a couple of years or if I am forced to go on disability.

 

[Asclepias]

Why should I be against the idea of 400 years of Black AA?

None of your business really but yes some of that stuff you mentioned.

Because if you are in anyway successful, AA makes you look bad. Everybody assumes you are successful because of AA instead of your own abilities and achievements. You didn't earn your own way, you were given a way by government. It's insulting to any successful person.

It's just like when you made that comment about my beverage store owner. You automatically assume his success was not because of hard work and learning, his success was because somebody gave him a loan that wouldn't loan money to blacks. I can assure you that if he read this blog and knew we were talking about him, he would be totally insulted. Even at his age, he still works night and day. When not at the store, he drives out 40 miles to his hotel to help his wife with chores she can't handle. They aren't that much younger than I am.

Makes you look bad? I dont care what people think. You should have learned that as an adult.

I didnt assume anything. As a matter of fact I pointed out he was one person and said lets pretend like he was an entire race. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

AA makes a lot of people look bad because it's assumed (like you did with my beverage store guy) they didn't or couldn't do it on their own. Any self-made person would be offended by that. They would be offended even more if somebody did make it to their level of success because of AA instead of doing it on their own.

Again if you were successful yourself you would realize what people think of you doesnt matter. Youre telling on yourself here.

Not at all. I would be insulted if somebody told me the only reason I'm where I'm at today is because I'm white. Forget the fact I chose not to have children because of the expense. Forget the fact that I wake up every morning and go to work. Forget the fact I've overcome all odds against me. I'm only doing okay because I'm white.

How could I not be offended by such an accusation?

Its dumb to be insulted with what someone else thinks. Only losers care what some random person thinks of their situation in life.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I entered the workforce in the 1970s

I saw what a pre-affirmative action workforce looked like

I saw women who graduated college with me being offered secretarial positions, med school was for men, nursing school for women. Women could be teachers but were not given opportunities to be principals

Blacks were considered not to have the “right stuff” to be managers and were pushed towards menial jobs

Did affirmative action help?
Sure did

No, AA is quotas. In other words, don't hire or promote the best person, hire and promote based on race or gender.

AA is a constitutional violation of equal protection under the law.

AA is more than quotas. Quotas have not been used in decades. It is about providing opportunities. Opportunities that did not exist before affirmative action

Yes it is about quotas. If you need X amount of Latinos in a certain position of a company, that is paramount to qualifications. It's very similar what they did in unions years ago. They promoted people based on how long they've been with the union or company instead of the people who could do the best job.

AA got people into doing jobs they really couldn't do. For instance a female road construction worker. A woman just doesn't have the strength to do such a job. That's why when you see a road crew, they usually have the women standing there holding the STOP and SLOW signs to direct traffic. It's the best use they have for them. And I'm not being bigoted here, I was raised in a construction family and I know the physical strength needed for such work.

As pointed out by somebody else in an earlier post, many employers had to lower their standards to accommodate people who couldn't do the same job. They did it in the military and many government jobs that required physical strength.

Non-blue collar jobs are quite different. Women excel men in education standards. However because back in the day, most women sought to become mothers instead of workers, employers feared that women would not be with the company very long. Back then, they wanted most if not all workers to be lifelong employees.

 

[rightwinger]

Makes you look bad? I dont care what people think. You should have learned that as an adult.

I didnt assume anything. As a matter of fact I pointed out he was one person and said lets pretend like he was an entire race. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

AA makes a lot of people look bad because it's assumed (like you did with my beverage store guy) they didn't or couldn't do it on their own. Any self-made person would be offended by that. They would be offended even more if somebody did make it to their level of success because of AA instead of doing it on their own.

Again if you were successful yourself you would realize what people think of you doesnt matter. Youre telling on yourself here.

Not at all. I would be insulted if somebody told me the only reason I'm where I'm at today is because I'm white. Forget the fact I chose not to have children because of the expense. Forget the fact that I wake up every morning and go to work. Forget the fact I've overcome all odds against me. I'm only doing okay because I'm white.

How could I not be offended by such an accusation?

You forsake having children because of the expense? And yet, despite your prudence, you are made to contribute a portion of uour earnings toward a public school system you have no need of, are you not? You do not feel you can afford the financial burden of your own children, but must bear the burden of others’ children under threat of punishment. This does not seem appropriate.

It's not and I'm totally against it, but little I can do about it either.

It's not that I mind paying my "fair share" but in our state, you are taxed by your property value and not usage of the education system. In other words I may be paying twice as much into the school system as my neighbor down the street with four kids in the system. I don't see the equity in it and it's totally unfair.

But yes, I opted not to have a family because of the cost. I invested my money instead, and while I'm just a working blue collar guy, I have my apartments that I take care of after work and on weekends. It will be of great value to me when I retire in a couple of years or if I am forced to go on disability.

Look at it this way

You used the educational system when you grew up and are now paying back the education you received

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Stats are useful, but we cannot forget to keep our thinking rooted in principle - that is the navigational system that keeps our course true. Freedom of association is a fundamental right of every person; thus affirmative action is a violation of individual liberty. One cannot claim to live in a free society while such policies are enforced.

I wholly support the right of private business to discriminate as they see fit, just as I support the free speech of deplorable racists. If you support the latter but not the former, you are resigning yourself to cognitive dissonance, as they are both rooted in the inherent rights of the individual.

Bullshit. Your opinion is a construct for violence! And your opinion is out of sync with our most treasured documents.

If one reads the Preamble as a vision statement of our founders, and a mission statement left to future leaders, and Jefferson famous phrase in the DoI that:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

then you ideal nation is not the United States of America.

Oh, I agree completely — innate equality is self-evident, and its acknowledgement is wholly rational, and behooving an advanced species. I just don’t believe in one party’s right to enforce its recognition upon another via coercive law. I do believe in defending the innocent against aggressive violations of their rights, but people do not have a “right” to work at a particular private business, or be promoted within that business.

All interactions in that environment should be voluntary. It is no more appropriate to say an employer must hire certain people than it is to tell certain people that they must work for a particular employer.

But no, my ideal “nation” would be no nation at all, but a society of free individuals acting in voluntary cooperation. Democratic Republics are the antithesis of cooperation. The majority use violent coercion to impose their will upon the minority via a system of “representation” whereby their representatives somehow have rights that exceed their own (such as the right to lay and collect taxes). This is the very definition of inequality.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Stats are useful, but we cannot forget to keep our thinking rooted in principle - that is the navigational system that keeps our course true. Freedom of association is a fundamental right of every person; thus affirmative action is a violation of individual liberty. One cannot claim to live in a free society while such policies are enforced.

I wholly support the right of private business to discriminate as they see fit, just as I support the free speech of deplorable racists. If you support the latter but not the former, you are resigning yourself to cognitive dissonance, as they are both rooted in the inherent rights of the individual.

Bullshit. Your opinion is a construct for violence! And your opinion is out of sync with our most treasured documents.

If one reads the Preamble as a vision statement of our founders, and a mission statement left to future leaders, and Jefferson famous phrase in the DoI that:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

then you ideal nation is not the United States of America.

Oh, I agree completely — innate equality is self-evident, and its acknowledgement is wholly rational, and behooving an advanced species. I just don’t believe in one party’s right to enforce its recognition upon another via coercive law. I do believe in defending the innocent against aggressive violations of their rights, but people do not have a “right” to work at a particular private business, or be promoted within that business.

All interactions in that environment should be voluntary. It is no more appropriate to say an employer must hire certain people than it is to tell certain people that they must work for a particular employer.

But no, my ideal “nation” would be no nation at all, but a society of free individuals acting in voluntary cooperation. Democratic Republics are the antithesis of cooperation. The majority use violent coercion to impose their will upon the minority via a system of “representation” whereby their representatives somehow have rights that exceed their own (such as the right to lay and collect taxes). This is the very definition of inequality.

All interactions in the environment ought to be governed by the Golden Rule. That it is not, and never will be, don't expect a Libertarian Constitution would be anything but predators and prey.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

AA makes a lot of people look bad because it's assumed (like you did with my beverage store guy) they didn't or couldn't do it on their own. Any self-made person would be offended by that. They would be offended even more if somebody did make it to their level of success because of AA instead of doing it on their own.

Again if you were successful yourself you would realize what people think of you doesnt matter. Youre telling on yourself here.

Not at all. I would be insulted if somebody told me the only reason I'm where I'm at today is because I'm white. Forget the fact I chose not to have children because of the expense. Forget the fact that I wake up every morning and go to work. Forget the fact I've overcome all odds against me. I'm only doing okay because I'm white.

How could I not be offended by such an accusation?

You forsake having children because of the expense? And yet, despite your prudence, you are made to contribute a portion of uour earnings toward a public school system you have no need of, are you not? You do not feel you can afford the financial burden of your own children, but must bear the burden of others’ children under threat of punishment. This does not seem appropriate.

It's not and I'm totally against it, but little I can do about it either.

It's not that I mind paying my "fair share" but in our state, you are taxed by your property value and not usage of the education system. In other words I may be paying twice as much into the school system as my neighbor down the street with four kids in the system. I don't see the equity in it and it's totally unfair.

But yes, I opted not to have a family because of the cost. I invested my money instead, and while I'm just a working blue collar guy, I have my apartments that I take care of after work and on weekends. It will be of great value to me when I retire in a couple of years or if I am forced to go on disability.

Look at it this way

You used the educational system when you grew up and are now paying back the education you received

So why should I pay three fold of what somebody else paid for me? And no, most of my education was in a private Catholic school where the church parishioners footed the bill.