Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[protectionist]

Well, then you know it was your abilities that got you -- and everyone else who graduated -- through college.

And it was not my abilities that got me (et al) OUT of the college. It was AA.

 

[protectionist]

Quotas have been illegal for a long while.

AA discriminates by race and sex, quotas or no quotas.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

How do you define success? I suspect that some of our criteria might be a little different. I also suspect that because I'm African American and learned of the history of my own family as well as that of other African Americans that I've gained a certain awareness of how we got to where we are today. None of us got to where we are today without assistance and the many sacrifices of those who went before us. Yes hard work goes a long way towards being successful but so does having opportunities and options. When I posted the information on the "Black Codes" it was to demonstrate how laws were passed to specially restrict the the movement and upward mobility of people of African descent. As a race African Americans were hobbled with a series of racist, legislative, impediments and speaking from my own personal experience have had 50 years to learn how to circumvent the legislative protections that were put in place in accordance with the Civil Rights Act.

This whole conversation started because of the false premise that "affirmative action takes jobs from qualified white people and gives them to unqualified black people" which has been sounded debunked yet it's still being stated as fact.

As far as time spent on this message board, is that a complaint because being able to argue (or debate) one's position in addition to taking apart your opponent's claim is good practice for anyone. Especially being able to do so in a civil manner

If there is a job, and a white and black applicant apply. The job goes to the black applicant not because he wasn't qualified, but because he was less qualified than the white, then the white lost a job because of AA. It's that simple.

Here is an article I think you should read. I posted it earlier (I think) but I'm not sure how far back you went into the thread. It's a short read; only a couple of minutes, but will give you something to think about:

Walter Williams: Black Self-Sabotage

 

[John Shaw]

Affirmative Action has been great for white women. Done very little for anyone else. Personally, I am opposed to it, as well as all quota systems. They are a bandaid "solution".

Quotas have been illegal for a long while.

Eh, not really, actually. It is more complex than just "we need 4 more black people, guys", though.

 

[protectionist]

Its not that I dont support it. Its more that I see it for what it really is. I will support it whole heartedly when It applies to Black people specifically. Until then its just another reason for low level white boys to whine about not being able to get a job ahead of others automatically.

"When" ? When I got discriminated against in graduate school (1977), AA applied specifically to black people, They are they ONLY ones who got assistantships. Among those denied, were 3 Hispanics (including me), 2 Asians, and 5 women.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

"If there is a job, and a white and black applicant apply. The job goes to the black applicant not because he wasn't qualified, but because he was less qualified than the white, then the white lost a job because of AA. It's that simple"

Let's change your scenario slightly and begin with two equally qualified candidates. What say you?

 

[OldLady]

Well, then you know it was your abilities that got you -- and everyone else who graduated -- through college.

And it was not my abilities that got me (et al) OUT of the college. It was AA.

Who told you that?

 

[protectionist]

Who told you that?

The dean in charge of the AA program (he was also teacher of one of my courses) he also told me I was academically, in the top 3 of the class of 33 students.

But do you think any of these 33 graduate students needed to be told ? (when 8 students get assistantships - the only 8 blacks who applied)

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

"If there is a job, and a white and black applicant apply. The job goes to the black applicant not because he wasn't qualified, but because he was less qualified than the white, then the white lost a job because of AA. It's that simple"

Let's change your scenario slightly and begin with two equally qualified candidates. What say you?

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

I seriously doubt two candidates for a job are going to have the exact same resume; same years of experience, same references, same college standards and so on. But when it comes to employment, employers have to be conscious of racial discrimination laws as well. If the white applicant has a slight edge over the black, the fear of a racal accusations yet alone a lawsuit could take that edge right off the table.

I'm not an employer, but I am a landlord. When people ask me about what my standards are for renting to somebody, I always tell them instinct. I have had people with very impressive rental histories be my worst tenants, and people with no history or not so impressive incomes ending up being my best tenants. You have to see what kind of desire they have in their eyes. You have to be able to tell if it's just one more apartment they are looking at, or of they fell in love with the place and you presume they will do anything to keep it nice if they are offered the apartment.

For instance one of my newest tenets are a couple with not such impressive incomes. She was pregnant, and they both worked at a pizza parlor. He didn't make too bad of money considering where he was, but I could tell how they were awed when I showed them the apartment. They were totally impressed with the property. They told me of their horror stories trying to find someplace decent. Rentals are in high demand these days. So I took a chance based on instinct. That was over 2 years ago, and no matter day or night, if I go to their apartment for something, the place is immaculate. Rent is paid close to on time, and the baby was born here and they will be celebrating her 2nd birthday this year.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

 

[IM2]

I have to laugh at you "boy", you brought up the "Headright" program. To whom did the white Europeans go to to supply the needed man power? That's right, blacks. They went and bought blacks from blacks. Dumbass.

And the more slaves they bought the more land(headrights) whites were given. And of course your comment about Africa misses reality completely but that's expected from an idiot like you.

 

[IM2]

Affirmative Action has been great for white women. Done very little for anyone else. Personally, I am opposed to it, as well as all quota systems. They are a bandaid "solution".

They were necessary

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

 

[IM2]

You questioning my education doesn't change the fact that we did not say the same thing.

This is second grade stuff here. You said when jobs are given, nobody knows why. I said the same thing with white women. Is there some kind of difference between jobs given to anybody and white women?

There is no need to answer my question about your education. I think the answer pretty obvious now. I also think your answer qualifies your claim of professional success.

However if there is any truth to your claims, it supports my point how AA is a total failure.

There is a difference because your claim was that others get jobs because if AA but once you were shown how whites were the prime benefactor suddenly we don't know that for white women. Ray, I helped build 3 businesses and retired at 52. You still work. I've done better than you, so if AA is what you say maybe you need to look for it.

Yes, well this is very common among liberals. They all seem to own businesses, self-employed, independently wealthy, work from home, or comfortabley early retired. Me? I'm the only truck driver here.

What I find most amazing is that all the successful leftists here talk like they don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. They say government needs to take more of their money (even though they can freely give it to government themselves) talk about giving to the poor (even though they are not poor themselves) talk about increasing minimum wage (even though they have never worked for minimum wage) support Commie Care (even though they are wealthy enough to have their own health insurance) and believe government should force industry to pay their employees more (even though they know it will drive businesses out of the country).

And here you are, early retired, owned several businesses, a self-made minority preaching about how others who didn't work nearly as hard as you be handed a meal ticket like AA.

I'll tell ya, you people are such philanthropists. Always looking out for people other than yourselves. So sweet.....

The reason it's confusing to me is because I know successful people. I have several of them in my family. None of them ever talked like the self proclaimed successful leftists here on USMB. They all believe that their hard work is why they are doing well today. They believe handouts are just keeping the poor--poor. They believe in government staying out of their lives--not forcing themselves in, and of course the money they make rightfully belongs to them--not the government.

Just so confusing because even those successful people I'm associated with work even harder for greater success. They don't have time to spend day and night on USMB. I barely see them check in on Facebook.

I helped build businesses, I did not own. I retired early yes. But I'm working on a personal project. Over 30 years ago I was selling insurance, but I did not find satisfaction in that. So I could have been rich by monetary standards but I chose to give my time to help people while getting paid far less. So the thing here Ray is there is more to philanthropy than giving money. You conservatives are stunted in your growth as humans so everything to you revolves around money. You are white. Everything whites have is due to legislation. The historical record shows this. White progress is the result of consistent handouts, and if you want to argue about it, we can start with the headright program and move on to right now. So what you need to do is shut your mouth.

LOL, I love the sound of whiny assed black racists in the morning...it smells like......victory. Who are you to tell anyone to shut their mouth "boy" ? You have it as backward, again, you, (not all blacks), but you, are inferior and it shows in every pos. You resent that you couldn't accomplish ANYTHING on your own and that you've had to depend on ******'s Government for everything you have, truly successful people, truly educated people have no need to trumpet it from the roof tops. You do it in every other post, you're a racist black fraud who is (as I said yesterday) over compensating. AA is your religion and your ego (or the lack there of) is your crutch.

Go preach your shit in Watts, they'll listen to you.

How about I preach my shit to you ******? Because the people in Watts know the truth. You are the one lacking knowledge.

A Long History of Affirmative Action - For Whites

Many middle-class white people, especially those of us from the suburbs, like to think that we got to where we are today by virtue of our merit - hard work, intelligence, pluck, and maybe a little luck. And while we may be sympathetic to the plight of others, we close down when we hear the words "affirmative action" or "racial preferences." We worked hard, we made it on our own, the thinking goes, why don't 'they'? After all, the Civil Rights Act was enacted almost 40 years ago.

What we don't readily acknowledge is that racial preferences have a long, institutional history in this country - a white history. Here are a few ways in which government programs and practices have channeled wealth and opportunities to white people at the expense of others.

More.

Early Racial Preferences

We all know the old history, but it's still worth reminding ourselves of its scale and scope. Affirmative action in the American "workplace" first began in the late 17th century when European indentured servants - the original source of unfree labor on the new tobacco plantations of Virginia and Maryland - were replaced by African slaves. In exchange for their support and their policing of the growing slave population, lower-class Europeans won new rights, entitlements, and opportunities from the planter elite.

White Americans were also given a head start with the help of the U.S. Army. The 1830 Indian Removal Act, for example, forcibly relocated Cherokee, Creeks and other eastern Indians to west of the Mississippi River to make room for white settlers. The 1862 Homestead Act followed suit, giving away millions of acres of what had been Indian Territory west of the Mississippi. Ultimately, 270 million acres, or 10% of the total land area of the United States, was converted to private hands, overwhelmingly white, under Homestead Act provisions.

The 1790 Naturalization Act permitted only "free white persons" to become naturalized citizens, thus opening the doors to European immigrants but not others. Only citizens could vote, serve on juries, hold office, and in some cases, even hold property. In this century, Alien Land Laws passed in California and other states, reserved farm land for white growers by preventing Asian immigrants, ineligible to become citizens, from owning or leasing land. Immigration restrictions further limited opportunities for nonwhite groups. Racial barriers to naturalized U.S. citizenship weren't removed until the McCarran-Walter Act in 1952, and white racial preferences in immigration remained until 1965.

More.

The Advantages Grow, Generation to Generation

Less known are more recent government racial preferences, first enacted during the New Deal, that directed wealth to white families and continue to shape life opportunities and chances.

The landmark Social Security Act of 1935 provided a safety net for millions of workers, guaranteeing them an income after retirement. But the act specifically excluded two occupations: agricultural workers and domestic servants, who were predominately African American, Mexican, and Asian. As low-income workers, they also had the least opportunity to save for their retirement. They couldn't pass wealth on to their children. Just the opposite. Their children had to support them.

Like Social Security, the 1935 Wagner Act helped establish an important new right for white people. By granting unions the power of collective bargaining, it helped millions of white workers gain entry into the middle class over the next 30 years. But the Wagner Act permitted unions to exclude non-whites and deny them access to better paid jobs and union protections and benefits such as health care, job security, and pensions. Many craft unions remained nearly all-white well into the 1970s. In 1972, for example, every single one of the 3,000 members of Los Angeles Steam Fitters Local #250 was still white.

But it was another racialized New Deal program, the Federal Housing Administration, that helped generate much of the wealth that so many white families enjoy today. These revolutionary programs made it possible for millions of average white Americans - but not others - to own a home for the first time. The government set up a national neighborhood appraisal system, explicitly tying mortgage eligibility to race. Integrated communities were ipso facto deemed a financial risk and made ineligible for home loans, a policy known today as "redlining." Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans. More than 98% went to whites. Of the 350,000 new homes built with federal support in northern California between 1946 and 1960, fewer than 100 went to African Americans.

More.

One result of the generations of preferential treatment for whites is that a typical white family today has on average eight times the assets, or net worth, of a typical African American family, according to economist Edward Wolff. Even when families of the same income are compared, white families have more than twice the wealth of Black families. Much of that wealth difference can be attributed to the value of one's home, and how much one inherited from parents.

But a family's net worth is not simply the finish line, it's also the starting point for the next generation. Those with wealth pass their assets on to their children - by financing a college education, lending a hand during hard times, or assisting with the down payment for a home. Some economists estimate that up to 80 percent of lifetime wealth accumulation depends on these intergenerational transfers. White advantage is passed down, from parent to child to grand-child. As a result, the racial wealth gap - and the head start enjoyed by whites - appears to have grown since the civil rights days.

In 1865, just after Emancipation, it is not surprising that African Americans owned 0.5 percent of the total worth of the United States. But by 1990, a full 135 years after the abolition of slavery, Black Americans still possessed only a meager 1 percent of national wealth.

So as we see the government at every level has been the white mans best friend. Understand this too chump, as long as sorry ass uneducated loser whites like you tell me how I am a failure and all the other crap you automatically return without thinking, you will get told about my accomplishments. Now shut your mouth punk.

 

[John Shaw]

Affirmative Action has been great for white women. Done very little for anyone else. Personally, I am opposed to it, as well as all quota systems. They are a bandaid "solution".

They were necessary

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

 

[IM2]

Affirmative Action has been great for white women. Done very little for anyone else. Personally, I am opposed to it, as well as all quota systems. They are a bandaid "solution".

They were necessary

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

 

[John Shaw]

Affirmative Action has been great for white women. Done very little for anyone else. Personally, I am opposed to it, as well as all quota systems. They are a bandaid "solution".

They were necessary

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

 

[IM2]

They were necessary

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

 

[John Shaw]

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

Condoned any torture lately?

 

[Manonthestreet]

How does that white boy in Broward keep his job?

 

[IM2]

Progress was mandated for whites for almost 200 years. The rest of this post is garbage.

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

Condoned any torture lately?

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?