Abortion: Why Men Don't Get A Say

[Si modo]

No, I have already said in this very thread that I would not go that far.

...

Nor do I think that a man should be able to force a woman into an abortion if he chooses to not be a father.

...

See, how simple that was........? We actually agree...Imagine that!

Sure, on THAT part. Unfortunately you appear to believe that forcing a man to be parent is okay. It is not.

Now you're doing what Madeline does. Valerie said no such thing.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well that is rather blown out of proportion. We have finally agreed that the system is unfair. The difference here is weather the solution of allowing men off the hook costs too much. I am unsure but am leaning on the side that it is. Maddie seems to think so as well. The rest of you seem to disagree. It is possible that we will not find a middle ground but statements like this only serve to ensure that and stop the debate. We would all like the system to be fair but fair is not the goal in life. Life is never fair and that is a fact. I rarely think in terms of fair or not as that line of thought never really works. What we need is a system that is functional and give the most opportunity to all parties and the child may well suffer more than is worth should the father be allowed his fair shake. As the laws and practice stands now there needs to be major reform. The system is unbelievably broken but then again I am weary of a solution the gives the father full ability to walk away.


That is one of the unintended consequences that come from allowing the man to walk away. There are plenty of situation where a woman is willing but unable to fully support a child without something from the father. In that situation, she may be forced to abort because having the child would not be financially sound. Allowing the father to walk WILL result in outcomes like this increasing. Even though adoption is also an answer it is also a poor one. There are consequences that will be paid in the name of fairness if the father were allowed to walk. You must realize this. The question that must be answered is whether or not the freedom in this case is worth the cost.

Adoption is not a 'poor choice'. It is a wonderful, incredible, brilliant thing to do. My family is enriched by our adopted relatives. They are as much family to me as if they were born into it.... in fact, we are more grateful for them. We consider ourselves blessed by adoption.

So you reason, every child given up for adoption has the same fine outcome? That just is not the case, CG.

So you reason that every child given up for adoption has the same poor outcome? That isn't the case, either.

 

[ConHog]

See, how simple that was........? We actually agree...Imagine that!

Sure, on THAT part. Unfortunately you appear to believe that forcing a man to be parent is okay. It is not.

Now you're doing what Madeline does. Valerie said no such thing.

You realize of course that I never said Valerie said anything. I simply stated how she appeared to me. And of course you also note that when I asked her a direct question, she went straight to an insult in an attempt to avoid answering my question.

 

[ConHog]

Hey, Conjob, this is how you appear to me.......

Nice insult, btw obviously I missed your line about agreeing about letting a man out of being responsible. I have no idea why you couldn't have simply restated that and said so instewd of being a baby.

 

[Colin]

Hey, Conjob, this is how you appear to me.......

 

[Cecilie1200]

So you reason, every child given up for adoption has the same fine outcome? That just is not the case, CG.

Now Madeline, that can be true of any case of the birth of the child, whether raised by the natural parents, or adopted.
My sister's adopted son is wonderful!

Of course I am delighted your family are happy, Kat, but don't play at stupid here. A drug addicted, brain damaged or birth defective child is not going to have much chance at being adopted, and if enough white babies were available once again, neither would children of color.

I grew up in foster care after the orphanage, during my HS years. It was a horror show then....it has only gotten much, much worse. The last fucking thing we need is to force feed that system more child victims.

So you're saying you wish someone had killed you instead?

 

[Madeline]

Now Madeline, that can be true of any case of the birth of the child, whether raised by the natural parents, or adopted.
My sister's adopted son is wonderful!

Of course I am delighted your family are happy, Kat, but don't play at stupid here. A drug addicted, brain damaged or birth defective child is not going to have much chance at being adopted, and if enough white babies were available once again, neither would children of color.

I grew up in foster care after the orphanage, during my HS years. It was a horror show then....it has only gotten much, much worse. The last fucking thing we need is to force feed that system more child victims.

So you're saying you wish someone had killed you instead?

No, Cecilie. Try to be a tad more compassionate and read what I actually wrote. I saw children driven to suicide by the abuses they suffered...and that is just for starters.

 

[ConHog]

Now Madeline, that can be true of any case of the birth of the child, whether raised by the natural parents, or adopted.
My sister's adopted son is wonderful!

Of course I am delighted your family are happy, Kat, but don't play at stupid here. A drug addicted, brain damaged or birth defective child is not going to have much chance at being adopted, and if enough white babies were available once again, neither would children of color.

I grew up in foster care after the orphanage, during my HS years. It was a horror show then....it has only gotten much, much worse. The last fucking thing we need is to force feed that system more child victims.

So you're saying you wish someone had killed you instead?

 

[JBeukema]

don't play at stupid here.

Irony: A Case Study

 

[Cecilie1200]

Of course I am delighted your family are happy, Kat, but don't play at stupid here. A drug addicted, brain damaged or birth defective child is not going to have much chance at being adopted, and if enough white babies were available once again, neither would children of color.

I grew up in foster care after the orphanage, during my HS years. It was a horror show then....it has only gotten much, much worse. The last fucking thing we need is to force feed that system more child victims.

So you're saying you wish someone had killed you instead?

No, Cecilie. Try to be a tad more compassionate and read what I actually wrote. I saw children driven to suicide by the abuses they suffered...and that is just for starters.

I'm being neither compassionate NOR uncompassionate. I'm asking a very logical question, based on the thread you yourself responded to. Adoption was suggested as an alternative to abortion. It was derided as a "poor choice" because lives of adopted/foster children are sometimes bad. Adoption was then championed as often bringing about excellent results. You then responded by talking about how awful it was for you, and that you therefore think that putting children in that system is a bad idea. So that leads one to conclude that you think death - the choice that adoption was offered instead of - is preferable to adoption/foster care. And you yourself said in another post that you thought it would be more humane to smother children than to allow them to have less-than-ideal childhoods.

All things considered, it's completely logical for me to ask you, as someone putting yourself forward as representative of and expert on foster care, if you therefore wish someone had killed you rather than allow you to experience life as a foster child.

I myself, while sorry that you had a bad childhood, am actually quite glad that you are here now, rather than being "humanely" killed in infancy.

 

[JBeukema]

Now Madeline, that can be true of any case of the birth of the child, whether raised by the natural parents, or adopted.
My sister's adopted son is wonderful!

Of course I am delighted your family are happy, Kat, but don't play at stupid here. A drug addicted, brain damaged or birth defective child is not going to have much chance at being adopted, and if enough white babies were available once again, neither would children of color.

I grew up in foster care after the orphanage, during my HS years. It was a horror show then....it has only gotten much, much worse. The last fucking thing we need is to force feed that system more child victims.

So you're saying you wish someone had killed you instead?

 

[syrenn]

If a baby inside a woman is solely her "property" with a man having no right to have any input into the decision making then what changes if the woman decides to keep the baby and wants child support? At what point do you say "Okay now the man has ownership to?"

Speaking of hypocrites.

So women take the blame for having the baby and poor men have to pay child support. And women take the blame for having an abortion for taking men's choices away and its not fair to them.

No one is claiming that a baby inside of a woman's body is solely her "property". A woman's body is solely her property, and if she chooses not to carry a child that is her choice.

And if she chooses to, that's her choice, too.


Ergo, it's on her to be responsibility for the results of her decision, whichever it might be.

Yes, it is the womens decision to abort or not. It is BOTH of their responsibilities if the baby is born.

 

[syrenn]

So answer the question. Where did she say any of that?

I've had this debate with Syrenn several times, Her attitude is obvious. If you weren't so busy sucking up to her maybe you would notice that she actually finds you to be nothing but a contemptible animal who needs to be beaten down.

You accuse me of hating women, when it is in fact Syrenn who hates men. What other explanation is there for someone who says the things she says.

Sy hates that she's a woman. She loathes the fact that sex involves penetration and demonizes men for the nature of the act. She loathes the fact that women carry children, can't grasp that not all women hate their children, and hates babies because they're an evil parasite infesting her and causing stretch marks. The only reason she can imagine for not killing a baby is to use it to as a means to control, dominate, and punish a the man who penetrated her.


In short: Sy = JD_2B

We're just waiting for her to claim her dog got her pregnant; then we'll have clone of the 'What should Abortion Laws Be?' thread. All the bullshit she's been posting was debunked over there. It's standard feminazi rhetoric.

You boys are hysterical to watch. When you cant debate you revert to type.

 

[ConHog]

So women take the blame for having the baby and poor men have to pay child support. And women take the blame for having an abortion for taking men's choices away and its not fair to them.

No one is claiming that a baby inside of a woman's body is solely her "property". A woman's body is solely her property, and if she chooses not to carry a child that is her choice.

And if she chooses to, that's her choice, too.


Ergo, it's on her to be responsibility for the results of her decision, whichever it might be.

Yes, it is the womens decision to abort or not. It is BOTH of their responsibilities if the baby is born.

and who is that fair to? How is that EQUAL?

 

[JBeukema]

It is BOTH of their responsibilities if the baby is born.

Only if he originally said or implied he had any intention of sticking around. Then she has a case to argue that he made a commitment and needs to own up.


If she chooses to have a child outside of a committed relationship, then she needs to own up to that decision. She has every opportunity to avoid becoming or remaining a single mother. Innumerable birth control methods, adoption agencies, Safe Place, abortion services. If her choice is to become a single mother, then she needs to grow up. Old enough to have a baby, old enough to be a mom. Lose the helpless little woman act.

 

[syrenn]

So women take the blame for having the baby and poor men have to pay child support. And women take the blame for having an abortion for taking men's choices away and its not fair to them.

No one is claiming that a baby inside of a woman's body is solely her "property". A woman's body is solely her property, and if she chooses not to carry a child that is her choice.

And if she chooses to, that's her choice, too.


Ergo, it's on her to be responsibility for the results of her decision, whichever it might be.

NO NO NO, women like Syrenn want to have their cake and eat it to. Keeping the child or not is MY choice, but raising that baby that is OUR responsibility, seems to be the battle cry.

Just as men want to eat their cake and eat it too. Equality sucks at times.

 

[Madeline]

Of course I am delighted your family are happy, Kat, but don't play at stupid here. A drug addicted, brain damaged or birth defective child is not going to have much chance at being adopted, and if enough white babies were available once again, neither would children of color.

I grew up in foster care after the orphanage, during my HS years. It was a horror show then....it has only gotten much, much worse. The last fucking thing we need is to force feed that system more child victims.

So you're saying you wish someone had killed you instead?

Why how ineptly charming. Good to know I have angered you enough to force you to such pettiness, JB.

 

[Ravi]

So women take the blame for having the baby and poor men have to pay child support. And women take the blame for having an abortion for taking men's choices away and its not fair to them.

No one is claiming that a baby inside of a woman's body is solely her "property". A woman's body is solely her property, and if she chooses not to carry a child that is her choice.

And if she chooses to, that's her choice, too.


Ergo, it's on her to be responsibility for the results of her decision, whichever it might be.

Yes, it is the womens decision to abort or not. It is BOTH of their responsibilities if the baby is born.

This is what I find really amusing about the rightwingloon crowd. A fetus is a living baby unless the father doesn't want it, apparently.

Once it is born, it actually is a LIVING person....in reality. But then it doesn't qualify for anything.

 

[Ravi]

And if she chooses to, that's her choice, too.


Ergo, it's on her to be responsibility for the results of her decision, whichever it might be.

Yes, it is the womens decision to abort or not. It is BOTH of their responsibilities if the baby is born.

and who is that fair to? How is that EQUAL?

It's not fair. Get over it. It is reality.

 

[ConHog]

It is BOTH of their responsibilities if the baby is born.

Only if he originally said or implied he had any intention of sticking around. Then she has a case to argue that he made a commitment and needs to own up.


If she chooses to have a child outside of a committed relationship, then she needs to own up to that decision.

Yep, either give him a say in the decision or go it alone. But Sy is not interested in being equal, she wants to CRUSH a man beneath her hooves. Neither the feelings of the man, nor the best interests of a child matter to her.