A Year Since MH-17 Tragedy

[Tehon]

I apologise for my importunity, but I want to ask one more question for clarifying – Would you try to take actions as soon as you became aware of that or you would wait until the police has released its false report and a biased trial begins?

This line of questioning is going nowhere, of course anyone would attempt to clear their name, Putin is no exception. A lack of indisputable evidence to prove your innocence however does not imply a lack of effort. Sonc has already highlighted one such effort for you. This sort of information provided by Sonc doesn't make it to Western media obviously but you must be privileged with access to it so why feign ignorance on this matter.

Have you heard something about Crimea?

Yes Russia was already under sanction but the US was pressuring the EU to increase sanctions. MH17 provided the US an opportunity to increase that pressure, to which the EU relented .
Google

Pretend all you want that the actions taken by the West since MH17 was shot down have been impartial. I for one don't impugn Russia's efforts to call attention to this impartiality and I think this impartiality is evidence that bears weight on the West not Russia. Nor does Russia's attempts to call attention to the impartiality of the proceedings detract from their effort to clear their name. Now bend over, Obama is not finished with you yet, stooge.
BTW, congratulations on your use of the English language, you seem very skilled at it.

 

[ESay]

This line of questioning is going nowhere, of course anyone would attempt to clear their name, Putin is no exception. A lack of indisputable evidence to prove your innocence however does not imply a lack of effort. Sonc has already highlighted one such effort for you. This sort of information provided by Sonc doesn't make it to Western media obviously but you must be privileged with access to it so why feign ignorance on this matter.

Yes, our discussion is pointless.

Unfortunately, I am not an expert in aviation, and therefore I can’t draw reliable conclusions from the Almaz-Antei’s press-conference.

At the end of our conversation I can say that if at first you have one version of an event and are providing a string of evidence in order to support it, but after a while it becomes known that at least majority of the evidence is false, and after all of that you come up with another version – then it casts shadow on both of them, to put it mildly. And who except of the accused can support this evidence? No one.

Now bend over, Obama is not finished with you yet, stooge.

Neither is Putin with you. You should be ready to be used once again. Such an opportunity will soon present itself, no doubts about it.

BTW, congratulations on your use of the English language, you seem very skilled at it.

Thanks for the congratulations. But I am sure you are exaggerating.

 

[ESay]

Investigation into possible Buk-missile-parts
In cooperation with the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) investigates several parts, possibly originating from a Buk surface-air-missilesystem. These parts have been secured during a previous recovery-mission in Eastern-Ukraine and are in possession of the criminal investigation team MH17 and the Dutch Safety Board.

The parts are of particular interest to the criminal investigation as they can possibly provide more information about who was involved in the crash of MH17. For that reason the JIT further investigates the origin of these parts. The JIT will internationally enlist the help of experts, among others forensic specialists and weapon-experts.

At present the conclusion cannot be drawn that there is a causal connection between the discovered parts and the crash of flight MH17.

The JIT conducts the criminal investigation and the DSB the investigation into the cause of the crash. Both investigations are conducted separately but JIT and DSB occasionally share material. In its final report the Dutch Safety Board will report on the discovered parts.

Dutch Safety Board Investigations Publication Investigation crash MH17 17 July 2014

 

[Sonc]

Unfortunately, I am not an expert in aviation, and therefore I can’t draw reliable conclusions from the Almaz-Antei’s press-conference.

Yes it is difficult. A lot of numbers and formulas.
This picture is better ... piu-piu....vjjjjj....BOOM=))
Putin shot down the plane

 

[Sonc]

Democracy in Ukrainian

 

[ESay]

Yes it is difficult. A lot of numbers and formulas.

Man, please, don’t pretend that you have understood much in all those formulas.

This picture is better ... piu-piu....vjjjjj....BOOM=))

You had better ask your General Staff about some pictures. They are professionals in it.

Democracy in Ukrainian

Damn it. You Russian “patriots” are either crazy or completely stupid. The video has been shot in Minsk (read the title). Considering that the guard remained in the building when the Ukrainian delegation came out, it may well be assumed that he is from Belorussian security service.

You are posting stupid lie here and there and after that you are claiming that Western propaganda is guilty of the bad image of Russia. Idiots.

 

[Sonc]

Damn it. You Russian “patriots” ...
You are posting stupid lie here .... Idiots.

Well let's see.

Comment please =))

 

[ESay]

Comment please =))

What does it have to do with MH17?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I have a simple question: why all the West is blaming only Russia for MH-17 and NOBODY ever even thought to suspect Ukraine????????????????????????
It doesn't sound fair, does it?

MOSCOW, July 16 /TASS/. The idea to create a tribunal to investigate the MH17 crash is aimed at punishing those whom the United States considers to be guilty, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Thursday commenting remarks by US Ambassador to Russia John Tefft who said the United States allegedly knew who had shot the Malaysian Boeing down.

"I remember the ambassador’s interview in which he said in a very categorical manner that the United States knew for sure who had downed the plane and added that it was waiting for the end of investigation," Lavrov said adding the phrase sounded a bit contradictory given the confidence which the US certainly has.

"But if Washington really thinks like Tefft says, the idea of a tribunal becomes a bit clearer. If they know everything, and the United States has actively supported the idea of tribunal’s creation by a UN Security Council resolution, then perhaps it is easy to put two and two together and understand what goal it [the tribunal] will pursue," the Russian foreign minister stressed.

"It turns out that it should guarantee the punishment of those whom Washington considers to be guilty. Let me leave it to Mr. Tefft’s conscience," Lavrov said.
TASS Russia - MH17 crash tribunal creation aimed at punishing those whom US considers guilty Lavrov

In the telephone conversation with Dutch PM Mark Rutte, Putin detailed Russia’s position on the initiative of a range of countries, including the Netherlands, on establishing the international tribunal to persecute persons responsible for destroying the Malaysian airliner.

Putin said this proposal is "early and counterproductive," the Kremlin press service said.

"The focus was made that to adopt a decision on judicial mechanisms and to bring those guilty in this crime to justice, an active work is needed to complete the international investigation that should be thorough and objective and have an independent and comprehensive character," the statement said.

This should be in full compliance with the provisions of Resolution 2166 of the UN Security Council adopted on July 21, 2014 upon Russia’s initiative, the press service stressed.

The Kremlin press service also said that politicized smear campaigns in the media regarding the causes of the crash were inadmissible.
TASS World - Putin says tribunal on MH17 crash early and counterproductive

MOSCOW, July 15 /TASS/. The Russian Investigation Committee is inclined to believe that an air-to air missile, which was not made in Russia, shot down a Malaysian Boeing (MH17 flight) over Ukraine a year ago.
TASS World - Investigators MH17 shot down over Ukraine by air-to-air missile not made in Russia

THE HAGUE, July 13. /TASS/. The idea of establishing an international tribunal on the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine almost a year ago is at least strange, a Dutch journalist and the author of a book on the tragedy, Joost Niemoller said on Monday.

"It is also very weird. Because you have a situation when the public prosecution is setting up an investigation and now we hear that they still don’t know for which judge they are going to bring it. So what kind of an investigation is that?" Niemoller said.
TASS World - Dutch expert says idea of setting up MH17 tribunal is weird

I have a simple question: why all the West is blaming only Russia for MH-17

Poor, innocent Russia. LOL!

 

[Stratford57]

I would try to prove my innocence, duh.

I apologise for my importunity, but I want to ask one more question for clarifying – Would you try to take actions as soon as you became aware of that or you would wait until the police has released its false report and a biased trial begins?

Esay, you love to ask your numerous questions (it would have been more useful to address some of them to official Washington and official Kiev though), why don’t you answer the ones you’ve been asked? For example, a simple question from my post #100 : why everybody blames Russia for downing MH-17 and nobody has even thought about blaming Ukraine? BTW, it’s at least 50% possible as long as “indisputable evidence” hasn’t been presented.

Tehon has been patiently answering your questions, now I’d like you to answer a few questions of mine. (You may say they are off topic [just like you told Sonc in your post above] but the answers for those questions may pour some light on why the tragedy with MH-17 in the sky over Ukraine was even possible).

It’s obvious you hated Yanukovich and you are glad he has been thrown out and you have supported Maidan revolution.

1. He only had 1 year of his presidency remained and he could be peacefully, legally and bloodlessly reelected. It would save a lot of money, human lives and Ukraine did not have to violate its constitution and to divide the society into two irreconcilable parts. Do you think other Ukrainian ex-presidents were any better? (All four were crooks.) At least Yanukovich kept stable prices, utilities, retirement payments and salaries and allowed people in the East to speak, to write and to be educated in their first Russian language (the right which new rulers already stolen from them).

2. You call him “Russian puppet”, but if it was so, he would join Custom Union with Russia and Belarus right away but he never did (unfortunately, because the coup would not be possible if he did).

3. You blame him for not signing the agreement about association with Europe. Now official Kiev has done it and it became obvious to those who are able to see: Europe will never “adopt” Ukraine as you wish for a number of reasons (2 main reasons are: Ukraine [it’s called Uk-Ruin now] becomes bigger mess every day and Europe doesn’t know what to do with millions of African and Middle East migrants). More and more Ukrainian residents can see clearly now: EU&US officials only goals about Ukraine are to use it (and 40 million of its people) as a tool to harm Russia, no matter how many Ukrainian lives it takes, they obviously don’t care. How do you like to be just a tool?

4. Junta promised you a sweet European life without corruption. What do we have in just a year and a half after they seized the power?

- Salaries and retirement values dropped at least 3 times, while prices (especially on medicine!) and utilities grew up several times. Salaries are paid with 3 or more months delay. People are catastrophically loosing their jobs. Industry has been killed, almost all the plants have been closed. Recently even Saakashvili (former Georgian president and now governor of Odessa!) has counted that “even if Ukrainian economy stops dropping, and Ukraine starts increasing its growth 4% every year, we’ll reach 2013 level only in 20 years”.
20 - YouTube
(And since Ukrainian economy keeps going down every day, you may see your future grand children before you see any improvements in Ukraine.)

- Numerous positions in the government were given to foreigners: Lithuanians, Georgians, Americans (Yaresko is a former US State Department employee). Whose interest do you think those people are representing: interests of Ukraine or interests of their own countries? Will they try to make Ukraine more independent or dependent?

- Hundreds of people have been locked in prisons and several were murdered for disagreeing with official Kiev (Busina, former Yanukovich administration members). What do you think about that?

- Official Kiev is catching young guys in the streets without any IDs, faking their IDs and sending them to the war in SE. What will you feel if eventually they catch you and make you a piece of gun meat?

- Investigation of the tragedies with killing over 100 people in Kiev before the coup and burning alive officially 50 (over hundred really) people in Odessa is stalled.

- Corruption is flourishing (the main corrupts are new rulers of the country) in and numerous drunk/drugged Right Sector thugs with weapons are doing whatever they want all over Ukraine with impunity. Police only watches but never intervenes.

- Official Kiev has cancelled all Russian TV channels (which were super popular in the East) and now brainwashes Ukrainian residents with only one “truth”: Ukrainian truth.

Unfortunately I could go on and on with my questions. The main question is: was that firkin coup worth so many troubles, misery all over the country and thousands of lost and handicapped human lives from both sides of the conflict? Since new rulers have proclaimed freedom and democracy for Ukraine, why did not they pay any attention to the demands of SE Ukraine residents: federalization, Russian as a second language and cooperation with Russia? Whom do you think official Kiev is fighting against in Donbass: terrorists (as they want you to believe) or regular civilians like you and me? Look at one of them: Vanya Voronov, a little boy, who lost his little brother, eyes, both legs and an arm after one of thousands of Ukrainian shelling.

 

[Sonc]

“even if Ukrainian economy stops dropping, and Ukraine starts increasing its growth 4% every year, we’ll reach 2013 level only in 20 years”.

He said that Ukraine should do something ... unusual...

the first step - to raise the wages to officials =)))
"I will not survive on 5800 hryvnia". - he said

 

[ESay]

Esay, you love to ask your numerous questions (it would have been more useful to address some of them to official Washington and official Kiev though), why don’t you answer the ones you’ve been asked? For example, a simple question from my post #100 : why everybody blames Russia for downing MH-17 and nobody has even thought about blaming Ukraine? BTW, it’s at least 50% possible as long as “indisputable evidence” hasn’t been presented.

Tehon has been patiently answering your questions, now I’d like you to answer a few questions of mine. (You may say they are off topic [just like you told Sonc in your post above] but the answers for those questions may pour some light on why the tragedy with MH-17 in the sky over Ukraine was even possible).

It’s obvious you hated Yanukovich and you are glad he has been thrown out and you have supported Maidan revolution.

1. He only had 1 year of his presidency remained and he could be peacefully, legally and bloodlessly reelected. It would save a lot of money, human lives and Ukraine did not have to violate its constitution and to divide the society into two irreconcilable parts. Do you think other Ukrainian ex-presidents were any better? (All four were crooks.) At least Yanukovich kept stable prices, utilities, retirement payments and salaries and allowed people in the East to speak, to write and to be educated in their first Russian language (the right which new rulers already stolen from them).

2. You call him “Russian puppet”, but if it was so, he would join Custom Union with Russia and Belarus right away but he never did (unfortunately, because the coup would not be possible if he did).

3. You blame him for not signing the agreement about association with Europe. Now official Kiev has done it and it became obvious to those who are able to see: Europe will never “adopt” Ukraine as you wish for a number of reasons (2 main reasons are: Ukraine [it’s called Uk-Ruin now] becomes bigger mess every day and Europe doesn’t know what to do with millions of African and Middle East migrants). More and more Ukrainian residents can see clearly now: EU&US officials only goals about Ukraine are to use it (and 40 million of its people) as a tool to harm Russia, no matter how many Ukrainian lives it takes, they obviously don’t care. How do you like to be just a tool?

4. Junta promised you a sweet European life without corruption. What do we have in just a year and a half after they seized the power?

- Salaries and retirement values dropped at least 3 times, while prices (especially on medicine!) and utilities grew up several times. Salaries are paid with 3 or more months delay. People are catastrophically loosing their jobs. Industry has been killed, almost all the plants have been closed. Recently even Saakashvili (former Georgian president and now governor of Odessa!) has counted that “even if Ukrainian economy stops dropping, and Ukraine starts increasing its growth 4% every year, we’ll reach 2013 level only in 20 years”.
20 - YouTube
(And since Ukrainian economy keeps going down every day, you may see your future grand children before you see any improvements in Ukraine.)

- Numerous positions in the government were given to foreigners: Lithuanians, Georgians, Americans (Yaresko is a former US State Department employee). Whose interest do you think those people are representing: interests of Ukraine or interests of their own countries? Will they try to make Ukraine more independent or dependent?

- Hundreds of people have been locked in prisons and several were murdered for disagreeing with official Kiev (Busina, former Yanukovich administration members). What do you think about that?

- Official Kiev is catching young guys in the streets without any IDs, faking their IDs and sending them to the war in SE. What will you feel if eventually they catch you and make you a piece of gun meat?

- Investigation of the tragedies with killing over 100 people in Kiev before the coup and burning alive officially 50 (over hundred really) people in Odessa is stalled.

- Corruption is flourishing (the main corrupts are new rulers of the country) in and numerous drunk/drugged Right Sector thugs with weapons are doing whatever they want all over Ukraine with impunity. Police only watches but never intervenes.

- Official Kiev has cancelled all Russian TV channels (which were super popular in the East) and now brainwashes Ukrainian residents with only one “truth”: Ukrainian truth.

Unfortunately I could go on and on with my questions. The main question is: was that firkin coup worth so many troubles, misery all over the country and thousands of lost and handicapped human lives from both sides of the conflict? Since new rulers have proclaimed freedom and democracy for Ukraine, why did not they pay any attention to the demands of SE Ukraine residents: federalization, Russian as a second language and cooperation with Russia? Whom do you think official Kiev is fighting against in Donbass: terrorists (as they want you to believe) or regular civilians like you and me? Look at one of them: Vanya Voronov, a little boy, who lost his little brother, eyes, both legs and an arm after one of thousands of Ukrainian shelling.

Yes, I think that you are trying to derail the theme, because it has taken a bad turn for you.

I will try to answer as briefly as I can.

1. It is a forum where everyone can choose those they want to mix up with or not. I have been coming across your posts for several months and I already have an impression about them and about you – this impression isn’t pleasant. I don’t know why Tehon decided to answer my questions. Maybe he just had spare time and he was simply killing an hour. I don’t want to spend my spare time on you.

2. I have found at least three examples of outright lie in your post. Do you think I will have a great desire to answer you after that? I won’t elaborate; I will use a tactic of Russian “patriots” and blame you for lying without providing evidence. You can claim (actually, you will claim) that it is simply a pretext not to answer your questions – I don’t care.

3. The themes you are raising in your questions have been discussed on this forum multiple times. And I have already given my opinion about them. I am not going to write the same once more – just because you are not interested in my opinion, all your questions have a more specific goal.

4. Democracy also means that the minority must meet the demands of the majority. I think that the majority of the Ukrainians don’t agree with the demands of a certain part of SE Ukraine residents (I could provide some explanations why I think so, but I won’t; you can consider that as my wrong opinion). There will be no federalisation, there will be no Russian language as a second language of the state (though, the Russian language along with some other languages of national minorities will have a status of regional languages). You can agree with all of that, or you can move elsewhere where the conditions for your life will be more pleasant for you. There are a couple of other options, but they are even less pleasant than those mentioned.


PS I hope our communication here will have the limited scopes.

 

[Sonc]

Yes, I think that you are trying to derail the theme, because it has taken a bad turn for you.

I do not know who shot down the plane.
If you have not noticed in this topic we have 14 pages of questions. And no one answer, proved by 100%.

I do not know how (in this situation) things can be good or bad for us.
Well, OK. Maybe this is some of the Ukrainian logic.

 

[Sonc]

I will use a tactic of Russian “patriots” and blame you for lying without providing evidence.

Lies Russian patriot - is your favorite topic.
But you have a very short memory.
You have already talked about lies Russian patriots.

It is amazing to hear from Russian “patriot” about lie.
What exactly is lie? The Moscow Council’s approval to organise a referendum about the monument is lie?
Or lie is that half of Muscovites (I previously wrote ‘the majority’ but then wrote ‘half’ because you would say that 51% isn’t the majority) support the establishing of the monument? Here is the most recent link about it
click (in Russian)

The most amazing fact is that the support of ‘iron Felix’ among young people stands at the rate of 63 per cent.
Storytellers.

Oh, you Russian trolls are so boring and predictable. Now I have only one answer to you – Fuck off.

Okay, stupid asshole. I have taken the trouble and looked for some information, special for you.

Damn it. Are you crazy? There are already two links here which say that 146000 are 5%. Do you understand that? Five percent. Repeat after me, letter by letter – five percent, five percent, five percent. Is that enough?

Do you remember what ended your bravado?

It seems that you are right, there must be 2% and they have gathered 2% of voters.

 

[Sonc]

ESay

I do not understand what your benefits.
I understand that Poroshenko is making money on this situation.

I understand that ordinary Ukrainians are tired of poverty. Corruption.

But what is the benefit of the howling?
Honestly...
You ideological hate Russian? Right sector or something else?
Or do you really believe in all this a lie?


Look what happens to the Ukrainians brain...

1 39
America with us!
Guys do not shoot, we have a Soviet flag.
The Soviet flag. German, SS flag, the flag of NATO, the European Union ... and many more flags =)) Flags on all occasions.

....

In your minds strangely coexist democratic values and coup d'etat.
The fight against corruption and the oligarch president.

 

[Sonc]

Tehon asked you the same question.

"This sort of information provided by Sonc doesn't make it to Western media obviously but you must be privileged with access to it so why feign ignorance on this matter".

I understand that the Americans are very difficult to understand the situation. They do not know the language and our history.
Just as I do not know the nuances of US history.

But you know!
And how can you believe in that?


When I saw 15 minutes of this video, I thought - hell, the Russian is very bad. They are evil and insidious. They do a lot of evil things. And evil must be punished.
And if I lived in the US, I went to the Marines ... because what these people say is really bad.

But you know Russian, and understand that every 10 seconds in this video - a lie.

 

[Sonc]

For example. 2 minutes said that Ukraine the demilitarized.
is a synonym of robbed?




-Do you have something to defend themselves?
- ... 20 years had to deal with the army, and not to bring it to shit.
...
- Why are you in different shoes and pants?
- Because everyone is buying them in stores
- For their money?
- of course...

- our officers in the 25-28 years of living in a dormitory. 4 people on 12 square meters.
And nobody is interested ...

And how beautifully Saakashvili says in the Senate ... for the sake of world peace, Ukrainian officials robbed a powerful army.
But you cant do not understand it? This is hypocrisy.
Your profit is what?

 

[Stratford57]

the first step - to raise the wages to officials =)))
"I will not survive on 5800 hryvnia".

My Georgian friend told me several years ago, when Saakashvili still was a president of Georgia: he and his Administration were paid directly by Washington. All Georgians were aware of it. It was like that long time before he attacked South Ossetia.

And same thing now: Saakashvili will be paid by Washington as a governor of Odessa.



Seems like no surprise: same people, same techniques, same actions. NOTHING NEW….

 

[Camp]

If the purpose of all these post was to deflect away from any examination of Russia shooting down a civilian airliner over Ukraine and preventing an international investigation and formal judgement, a good job has been done, maybe.
Russia still remains one of the most despised and disrespected nations on earth because of MH-17, they are in a long term recession and the innocent citizens of Russia will suffer for years into the future with a failed economy because of this sad incident. The only justice will be that the Ukrainian separatist will be disliked and even hated by Russians and Ukrainians alike. They will never be forgotten for leaving those bodies in the hot sun to rot and be eaten by wild animals and dogs while they looted the bodies and baggage of the passengers and covered up their crime of mass murder. Russia will be forced to continue supporting these dregs and horrible humans far into the future. The majority in SE Ukraine will be forced to suffer because of the minority of alcoholic thugs who controlled the AK 47's.

 

[Sonc]

I speak at this forum respectfully with people who really interesting exchange of views and opinions.

But people like you make me just laugh and compassion.
Because I see a blind hatred towards Russian =)
Blind hatred is always a sign or stupid ... or resentful =)
Are you who from them?

They will never be forgotten for leaving those bodies in the hot sun to rot and be eaten by wild animals and dogs while they looted the bodies and baggage of the passengers and covered up their crime of mass murder.

Can I see the source of this information?
where you're from?