A Perspective on Shootings That Liberals Won't Discuss

[M14 Shooter]

If laws don't do anything, why do we have any.

Not that you will supply a reasoned response....

Laws against murder do not exist to prevent murder, they exist to punish the murderer
Laws against rape do not exist to prreventt rape, they exist to punish the rapist
Laws against assault do not to prevent assault, they exist to punish the assaulter
Laws against felons buying/owning guns do not exist to prevent felons buying/owning guns, they exist to punish the felon who buys/own a gun.

Enacting a law that will prevent felons from buying/owning guns is every bits as fallacious as enacting a law that will prevent murder.

 

[M14 Shooter]

"Gun control" has nothing to do with Liberals.

No, of course not. That's why they're always the ones who are calling for it. It's just a red herring.

Aren't you ignoring the most important word in gun control. Control. That doesn't equate to confiscation...

It s already illegal for criminals to have guns -- what more control do you need?

and 80-90 percent of the public agrees stricter background checks and mental stability screenings should be put in place.

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[M14 Shooter]

Too bad people like you are the ones I fear the most. You might think of yourself as Clint Eastwood, who can settle every confrontation on the street at a barrel of your gun. You being mugged does not mean the remaining 320 million Americans need to live in fear of weapons on morons like yourself.

Similarly, your irrational fear gf guns in no way justifies further restrictions being places on the law abiding.

 

[2aguy]

Arrest criminals caught with guns and put them in jail a long time.....that fixes the problem, they won't want to be caught in possession of a gun, or commit a crime with a gun...that way you focus on the problem...criminals, not law abiding gun owners who don't use guns to break the law.....

As I pointed out, European criminals get guns as easily as our criminals do...even easier since they get fully automatic rifles whenever they want....so their gun laws are no more effective than our gun laws are at Preventing gun violence........

Which happens already and isn't solving the problem.

Also, in Europe the number of prisoners is LESS per capita.

List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The US is number 2, behind the Seychelles, 707 people per 100,000 compared to....

England and Wales at 148, France at 103, Germany at 78, Spain at 144, Sweden at 60.... and so on.

So, it clearly isn't working for the US. 5 to 10 times more prisoners, 5 times more murders.


Take rape for example, in the US it's considered to be majorly under reported.

Rape statistics - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

"The majority of rapes in the United States go unreported. According to the American Medical Association (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime."

In the UK and Europe women are more likely to report rape because there has been a concerted effort to get it reported. And as this is considered violent crime in the UK then it adds to the statistics.

69 000 female 9 000 male rape victims per year visualised get the full data News The Guardian

"Given its nature as an estimate, the figure of 78,000 is perhaps best stated alongside the upper and lower limits of its 95% confidence interval: 60,000 and 95,000 respectively."

So the estimates are for about 78,000 rapes.

In the US "A 2011 report on prison rape by the BJS stated that "in 2008 there were at least 69,800 inmates who were raped under conditions involving force or threat of force, and more than 216,600 total victims of sexual abuse, in America’s prisons, jails, and juvenile detention centers.""

Are any of these reported as violent crime?

Rape in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

"According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, there were overall 173,610 victims of rape or sexual assault, or 0.1% of the US population 12 or older in 2013."

Probably not, seeing as this is about 40% of the level of rape. I can't imagine that the US rape rate is more than half the UK rape rate.

"Rapes and Sexual Assaults are rarely reported to law enforcement. A 2014 report by the Department of Justice showed that only 34.8% cases of sexual assaults are reported to the authorities."

So, in theory we can triple that number to 52,000, which would put it to 100,000 which is potentially higher than the UK rate. But we're working on unknowns, so, probably, the rape rates aren't that different, the difference is one goes to report UK violent crime whereas the other may or may not (I haven't come across anything that indicates either way yet) but anyway the number is far too low.

In fact the NCVS reports rape at 1.3 and the UCR at 0.3 because they only use forcible rape.
Robbery for the NCVS is 2.8 and for the UCR it's 1.1
Aggravated assault for the NCVS is 3.8 and for the UCR it's 2.4

Why the differences? It's all about how things are reported. So violent crime can be whatever you want it to be. Hence why saying that the UK has much higher crimes rates compared to the US is difficult. Certainly there are parts of the US, non-large cities that are incredibly safe, more so than in, say, the UK. However bigger cities in the UK are generally much safer. I've never lived in London and wouldn't want to, nor would I want to live in a big US city. I've seen enough of cities in bother countries, and in other European countries.

So, locking people up works? Doesn't seem to. Diddling the statistics seems to help.... not.

Which happens already and isn't solving the problem.

Actually, it is...we had a 7 year old shot in chicago...his father, a high ranking gang leader was the target. The father was arrested earlier on a gun possession charge, he had over 40 arrests on his record. He was released the day after his arrest on the gun charge. That is the problem...not law abiding people owning and carrying guns.

Also, in Europe the number of prisoners is LESS per capita.

List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The US is number 2, behind the Seychelles, 707 people per 100,000 compared to....

England and Wales at 148, France at 103, Germany at 78, Spain at 144, Sweden at 60.... and so on.

So, it clearly isn't working for the US. 5 to 10 times more prisoners, 5 times more murders.

Again...the people in Europe commit less crime of any kind than U.S. criminals do....if you want to talk about drug laws, fine, we can talk about that....but for any criminal using a gun in a crime arresting them and locking them up for a long time reduces the murder rate...or do you just want to let them go....? Also, those societies are homogenous, have similiar income levels across the country, and have more respect for authority and their government...unlike our criminals.

Rape in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

"According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, there were overall 173,610 victims of rape or sexual assault, or 0.1% of the US population 12 or older in 2013."

Probably not, seeing as this is about 40% of the level of rape. I can't imagine that the US rape rate is more than half the UK rape rate.

"Rapes and Sexual Assaults are rarely reported to law enforcement. A 2014 report by the Department of Justice showed that only 34.8% cases of sexual assaults are reported to the authorities."

So, in theory we can triple that number to 52,000, which would put it to 100,000 which is potentially higher than the UK rate. But we're working on unknowns, so, probably, the rape rates aren't that different, the difference is one goes to report UK violent crime whereas the other may or may not (I haven't come across anything that indicates either way yet) but anyway the number is far too low.

Do you realize that Sweden...with their extreme gun control, is the rape capital of Europe.....? did you know that guns are the most effective way for a woman to stop a violent rape...according to all the studies conducted on the subject....? That in Europe, their rape rates are going up as they import immigrants from muslim countries where they see European women as promiscuous and therefore unprotected by sharia......

You want to stop violent crime with guns...so do I. The things you suggest will not accomplish what you say you want. The best way to lower gun vioence short term is to arrest gang members caught with guns and put them in jail a long time...

Another story from chicago...we had a shooting last year at a park...three men.....two of them had been arrested on gun charges and sentenced to 3 years in prison...they pled the charges down to the point they were sent to a "Boot Camp," and were out in about 18 months, they got out and about 30 days later they shot up the park killing several people....

Also.....increase police numbers...in Chicago, we are down 2,000 police officers...but they have enough police to take care of the white, democrat leadership members areas, and not enough for the gang infested neighborhoods.....

That is how you stop gun crime, not by licensing people who don't commit crime, or registering the guns of people who don't commit crime....

You make the claim that it isn't law abiding people owning guns who aren't the problem. The question is, what is law abiding? It's not always what people make it out, the us and them.
Do people not commit crimes for the first time? People who are "law abiding" who then go and commit a crime? Is this not a problem?
What is a problem is that a law abiding person can have their house broken into and their guns stolen because they're not storing the guns correctly, or they've left the gun somewhere, or they are storing it correctly but even that gets found out, or whatever. They can end up with a gun going into the illegal supply chain. Not because they're bad, or because they've done something bad, there is no blame going on here. It's just that guns get into the system quite easily. There are plenty of ways, I'm sure you could use your imagination on this one.

Do I realise that Sweden is the rape capital of Europe. Why? Is it because there are more rapes or is it because more rapes are reported?
This is an important issue. Sweden is a very liberal country and women know their rights, and they will report anything. In the US women are far less likely to report their rape.
Does Sweden have higher ACTUAL rape than the USA? Maybe not. We simply don't know.

You say that guns are the best way to deter rape. I'm going to use statistics to prove you massively wrong.

Alaska has the highest rape rate in the country. By a long way. 87.6 per 100,000. Sure, these are stats and I'm not saying I trust them, just making a point.

Let's look at states in the 40s. South Dakota, Colorado, New Mexico, Arkansas, Michigan.

I'm going to say that all of those states are places where it's not very difficult to get guns. They're pro-gun states, more or less.

The lowest by far is New York, by quite a way. Again, these are stats, maybe this is not the case. However NY is a place where it's harder to get guns.

Why would the worst places for rape be places where guns are easy to get and the lowest places where guns are harder to get? Do guns stop rape? No, they actually help rape. If a man is going to rape a woman he'd probably do it in a manner where, even if the woman has a gun, she's not going to be able to use it. Whereas the man is in pole position, he can use his gun, and chances are he's got a gun and she doesn't.

And you also miss the point...gun violence is not a problem of "First Criminals" gun violence is a problem of career killers who belong to gangs and drug dealing counter parts.....

The 7 year old who was shot and killed this weekend...his father is a high ranking gang leader....with over 40 arrests...this is the guy who needs to be stopped, not John and Jane Q. citizen who buy a gun to protect themselves....

 

[LeftofLeft]

Any pro-gun rant that assumes all liberals want to totally ban guns is misinformed and should be disregarded.

True. Liberals want to restrict gun ownership to the State and the ruling elite.

 

[Pogo]

Any pro-gun rant that assumes all liberals want to totally ban guns is misinformed and should be disregarded.

True. Liberals want to restrict gun ownership to the State and the ruling elite.

That would be completely anti-Liberal. Try again.
Or was that satire? Can't tell.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes....guns are the best way for a woman to fight off a violent rapist...bar none.....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape

A woman using a gun is less likely to be raped and more likely to not be injured during the attack....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.

********************

So, again a woman's best chance for stopping the rape and ultimately surviving the situation is to use a gun.....

***********************

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Data/Crime/Florida/Gun Ownership Stops Rape/

And for 19.95 you can read Southwick's 2000 study on guns that talk about rape.....

Self-defense with guns The consequences

This one gives the actual percentages of how rapes are stopped...guns come out on top...

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t07/i4/jalt07i4p99.pdf

Except that states with more guns seems to have higher rape of course. Are you suggesting that being near a gun makes a man more likely to need sex with a stranger then?

Your evidence is what? It's just proving that you THINK that guns are better for dealing with rape. Not that they are. You made the assumption that guns are better.

First asks people what "potential victims" (ie, not people who actually were victims) think would be best. I mean, come on, you're trying to "prove" something with "some people who have never been raped think guns would be better".

Second is based on what? A survey. However we know that most rapes don't get reported. Maybe those who resisted with a gun (I'm not saying it didn't happen) or those who resisted at all would be more likely to tell the survey what they did. This was from a time, late 70s and early 80s when people were even less likely to report such things than today.

Third is about three types of crime bunged together. You can't make much of a case for rape here at all.

Fourth is about women who DID resist rape and were able to. What about those women who could not resist rape? Well, they probably got raped, didn't they?

I'm not saying a gun cannot be used in rape. I'm saying that rape in states where guns are more common in the hands of people appears to give higher rates of rape on average than states with lower amounts of guns in the hands of people.

You're saying this isn't the case and have "proven" this with a bunch of "studies" which don't tell us much at all.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Sorry...it isn't a problem...the problem are professional criminals, not normal people who buy and own guns....you are focusing on exactly the wrong group. In fact, studies show that people with concealed carry permits are in fact more law abiding than the average American and more law abiding than uniformed police officers....

There are over 320 million guns in private hands....there are only 8,454 gun murders in the country of over 320 million people......in 2013 and that is going down, not up.....let me repeat that...

the number of gun murders is going down not up...and the number of accidental gun deaths is going down, not up according to both the FBI and the CDC....

So no, first time gun crime is not a problem in this country....organized, repeat criminals who easily get guns because they do not obey the law are the problem.....

"Sorry...it isn't a problem..." as if that suddenly changes the whole debate.

I'm not focusing on the whole group. I'm looking at all the issues here. You're looking for direct problems. People who make a decision and that decision is to commit a crime. I'm not. This isn't the simple black and white picture. You think I'm somehow blaming "law abiding people", I'm not. However I'm saying law abiding people being able to get guns relatively easily is a problem.

We have a situation where guns are common in the US compared to not common in Europe. This pool of weapons, the ease of buying weapons from shops, shows etc etc, the number of weapons in society and so on, lead to a problem. They lead to guns being used by criminals far more often.

You say that people with carry and conceal permits are more law abiding. So... what does this show? Would it be that law abiding people are more likely to go through the permit process? Is it that many who are not law abiding can't get guns therefore couldn't get a carry and conceal permit? I mean, come on, a stat that is almost meaningless.

There are "only" 8,454 murder. Only, ONLY. Are you freaking kidding me? That's twice the number of deaths in a year that US service personnel suffered in Iraq in the whole time from 2003 onwards. That's a LOT OF PEOPLE. That's nearly 5 times the rate of the UK, 10 times the rate of places like Germany. Only??????

So gun murders are going down. This is a good thing. Why are they going down?

The point I'd make is they're going down and still way too high. The number of kids getting guns and shooting up schools is way too high, the number of people killing others is way too high. Yes, numbers are going down, however are they going down ENOUGH?

 

[frigidweirdo]

As far as blacks go...they vote for the very people who created segregation at the rate of 95%. Indians.....live on welfare provided by the very government that put their ancestors on the Reservations...they could leave the reservations you know...and the ones who do actually become successful.......

There are more blacks in prison because right now more black homes are headed by young, single, teenage mothers, and that is a recipe for disaster...but whites, and hispanics are catching up....

Are you doing the whole "democrats created segregation and vote democrat" nonsense argument? Please tell me you're not, I hope you're better than that.

As for Native Americans (Indians are from India), they could leave. It wasn't necessarily easy for them, their whole family structure would be taken away from them, they'd have to go it alone.

Yes, many black homes are single parent homes. It's part of a cycle of violence. No one tries to teach people how to have a successful relationship. It should be essential teaching in schools, expectations and so on. That's why the divorce rate in the US is so high. This isn't something that just affects black people, white people also have visions of this amazing marriage and when it gets a little rocky they jump ship because it doesn't meet society's view of a relationship.

Unless people start tackling the cycle of poverty, things will just get worse. However I get the feeling some right wingers like having these scapegoats they can point at, cheap under-educated labor they don't need to import, the ability to say "we're tough on crime" and prove it by locking up hundreds of thousands of young men who should be living their lives.

But the US is becoming a "can't do" nation.

 

[frigidweirdo]

And you also miss the point...gun violence is not a problem of "First Criminals" gun violence is a problem of career killers who belong to gangs and drug dealing counter parts.....

The 7 year old who was shot and killed this weekend...his father is a high ranking gang leader....with over 40 arrests...this is the guy who needs to be stopped, not John and Jane Q. citizen who buy a gun to protect themselves....

Yes, that is also a problem. However there is still a problem of people who have never been convicted of a crime before. Most schools shootings, I would assume, happen because kids with no convictions get guns.

But then again the US isn't doing that much to stop the cycle of poverty which feeds the gangs. People merely say "anyone can make it in the USA" without pointing out that while any of the could make it, most won't and they can't all make it, only a few of them can, while the rest get to continue the cycle of poverty and violence.

 

[2aguy]

And you also miss the point...gun violence is not a problem of "First Criminals" gun violence is a problem of career killers who belong to gangs and drug dealing counter parts.....

The 7 year old who was shot and killed this weekend...his father is a high ranking gang leader....with over 40 arrests...this is the guy who needs to be stopped, not John and Jane Q. citizen who buy a gun to protect themselves....

Yes, that is also a problem. However there is still a problem of people who have never been convicted of a crime before. Most schools shootings, I would assume, happen because kids with no convictions get guns.

But then again the US isn't doing that much to stop the cycle of poverty which feeds the gangs. People merely say "anyone can make it in the USA" without pointing out that while any of the could make it, most won't and they can't all make it, only a few of them can, while the rest get to continue the cycle of poverty and violence.

Sorry that isn't true...graduate from high school, don't get an a criminal conviction, get married before you have kids....and you can make it......these basics give you your shot......

 

[2aguy]

As far as blacks go...they vote for the very people who created segregation at the rate of 95%. Indians.....live on welfare provided by the very government that put their ancestors on the Reservations...they could leave the reservations you know...and the ones who do actually become successful.......

There are more blacks in prison because right now more black homes are headed by young, single, teenage mothers, and that is a recipe for disaster...but whites, and hispanics are catching up....

Are you doing the whole "democrats created segregation and vote democrat" nonsense argument? Please tell me you're not, I hope you're better than that.

As for Native Americans (Indians are from India), they could leave. It wasn't necessarily easy for them, their whole family structure would be taken away from them, they'd have to go it alone.

Yes, many black homes are single parent homes. It's part of a cycle of violence. No one tries to teach people how to have a successful relationship. It should be essential teaching in schools, expectations and so on. That's why the divorce rate in the US is so high. This isn't something that just affects black people, white people also have visions of this amazing marriage and when it gets a little rocky they jump ship because it doesn't meet society's view of a relationship.

Unless people start tackling the cycle of poverty, things will just get worse. However I get the feeling some right wingers like having these scapegoats they can point at, cheap under-educated labor they don't need to import, the ability to say "we're tough on crime" and prove it by locking up hundreds of thousands of young men who should be living their lives.

But the US is becoming a "can't do" nation.

You know...if you don't rape, rob, or murder the odds of you going to jail are 0. so that crap about just locking people up is crap. Remember, it is republicans fighting for school reform and the democrat block it every step of the way. Too much money flows from teachers to their unions to democrat politicians back to teachers all costing the tax payers their hard earned money........so that crap about democrats fighting for the poor is just that...crap....

And democrats are the party of segregation, and slavery, and jim crow, and poll taxes and literacy tests and blocking the school house doors, in the past keeping blacks out, and now that public schools suck, keeping them in.....

 

[frigidweirdo]

Sorry that isn't true...graduate from high school, don't get an a criminal conviction, get married before you have kids....and you can make it......these basics give you your shot......

And how many get the chance to make it out of high school, or not get a criminal conviction? You put kids in a bad position and some are going to end up in a bad place.

You're coming out with the same old rhetoric that is causing all the problems in the first place.

Do nothing, it's their fault they're in poverty. It's their fault they end up in crime.

Would you have ended up in crime and poverty had you been born into an inner city ghetto?

 

[2aguy]

Sorry...it isn't a problem...the problem are professional criminals, not normal people who buy and own guns....you are focusing on exactly the wrong group. In fact, studies show that people with concealed carry permits are in fact more law abiding than the average American and more law abiding than uniformed police officers....

There are over 320 million guns in private hands....there are only 8,454 gun murders in the country of over 320 million people......in 2013 and that is going down, not up.....let me repeat that...

the number of gun murders is going down not up...and the number of accidental gun deaths is going down, not up according to both the FBI and the CDC....

So no, first time gun crime is not a problem in this country....organized, repeat criminals who easily get guns because they do not obey the law are the problem.....

"Sorry...it isn't a problem..." as if that suddenly changes the whole debate.

I'm not focusing on the whole group. I'm looking at all the issues here. You're looking for direct problems. People who make a decision and that decision is to commit a crime. I'm not. This isn't the simple black and white picture. You think I'm somehow blaming "law abiding people", I'm not. However I'm saying law abiding people being able to get guns relatively easily is a problem.

We have a situation where guns are common in the US compared to not common in Europe. This pool of weapons, the ease of buying weapons from shops, shows etc etc, the number of weapons in society and so on, lead to a problem. They lead to guns being used by criminals far more often.

You say that people with carry and conceal permits are more law abiding. So... what does this show? Would it be that law abiding people are more likely to go through the permit process? Is it that many who are not law abiding can't get guns therefore couldn't get a carry and conceal permit? I mean, come on, a stat that is almost meaningless.

There are "only" 8,454 murder. Only, ONLY. Are you freaking kidding me? That's twice the number of deaths in a year that US service personnel suffered in Iraq in the whole time from 2003 onwards. That's a LOT OF PEOPLE. That's nearly 5 times the rate of the UK, 10 times the rate of places like Germany. Only??????

So gun murders are going down. This is a good thing. Why are they going down?

The point I'd make is they're going down and still way too high. The number of kids getting guns and shooting up schools is way too high, the number of people killing others is way too high. Yes, numbers are going down, however are they going down ENOUGH?

You think I'm somehow blaming "law abiding people", I'm not. However I'm saying law abiding people being able to get guns relatively easily is a problem.

Sorry...you are blaming law abiding people, you say it in your second sentence in this quote.....it isn't normal people that are stealing guns and using them....and of the 320 million guns in private hands only 8,454 were used to commit murder and those murders were not committed as "First Crimes" by normal people who just decided to kill someone. They were committed by career, violent criminals, mainly in inner city gangs and drug dealers in small, tiny, geographic areas in inner cities......

Not "first criminals."


And again....criminals in Europe get their guns as easily as our criminals get their guns, and they get fully automatic rifles and 30 round magazines, hand grenades, pistols and rocket propelled grenades...easily.

That they don't use them as often is culture, not access to guns. Even before the gun bans in Europe they were less violent than the United States.

They lead to guns being used by criminals far more often.

No..this is not why American criminals use guns more often, they use guns more often because of the criminal culture in the United States, fueled by single teenage mothers raising children who then have children...without adult role models teaching impulse control, and civilized behavior....that causes the high gun murder rate..not guns.

You say that people with carry and conceal permits are more law abiding. So... what does this show? Would it be that law abiding people are more likely to go through the permit process? Is it that many who are not law abiding can't get guns therefore couldn't get a carry and conceal permit? I mean, come on, a stat that is almost meaningless.

It isn't meaningless it proves your entire post is wrong.....normal, law abiding people are not committing murder with their guns.....over 12.8 million people are now carrying guns for self defense, and they aren't shooting people with those guns....criminals who make their living as criminals are doing the shooting and they easily get around any and all gun laws.

There are "only" 8,454 murder. Only, ONLY. Are you freaking kidding me? That's twice the number of deaths in a year that US service personnel suffered in Iraq in the whole time from 2003 onwards. That's a LOT OF PEOPLE. That's nearly 5 times the rate of the UK, 10 times the rate of places like Germany. Only??????

And that is European culture, not guns.....and now that Europe is importing immigrants from war torn 3rd world countries in vast numbers, with no connection or respect for European customs or culture and with violence as a way of life crime is going up...even gun crime.....

And keep in mind.....in the modern nations of Europe..they marched their innocent people into the hands of mass murderers, to the tune of over 12 million innocent men, women and children.....and that is a far greater number than our criminals who kill people with guns. That number is always overlooked by you guys when you compare violence rates.

Why are they going down?

Because our culture is becoming less violent, except in the inner cities controlled by democrat social welfare policies, law enforcement policies, and economic and education policies...fix those...and you will reduce crime in the murder capitals of this country.....chicago, detroit, new orleans, baltimore.....

And keep in mind...Baltimore has all the gun control you want....finger printing gun owners, assault weapon ban, magazine limits, universal background checks, no gun show "loophole" and there murder rate is spiking.....

Detroit, the Chief of police is telling residents to get guns and carry them...and their murder rate is the lowest in 47 years....

 

[2aguy]

Sorry that isn't true...graduate from high school, don't get an a criminal conviction, get married before you have kids....and you can make it......these basics give you your shot......

And how many get the chance to make it out of high school, or not get a criminal conviction? You put kids in a bad position and some are going to end up in a bad place.

You're coming out with the same old rhetoric that is causing all the problems in the first place.

Do nothing, it's their fault they're in poverty. It's their fault they end up in crime.

Would you have ended up in crime and poverty had you been born into an inner city ghetto?

No...it is the fault of democrat policies that puts them in that position, they destroy the education system..condemning children to a life without an education, they under fund, undermine and under staff the police, allowing violence to escalate in the poorest neighborhoods, while the rich, white democrat areas have more than enough police, and their tax, borrow and spend economic policies drive out businesses and drive out jobs.......

That is the bad situation created by democrats that doom these kids to gangs......

change that and you stop gang recruitment....

 

[2aguy]

Yes....guns are the best way for a woman to fight off a violent rapist...bar none.....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape

A woman using a gun is less likely to be raped and more likely to not be injured during the attack....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.

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So, again a woman's best chance for stopping the rape and ultimately surviving the situation is to use a gun.....

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http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Data/Crime/Florida/Gun Ownership Stops Rape/

And for 19.95 you can read Southwick's 2000 study on guns that talk about rape.....

Self-defense with guns The consequences

This one gives the actual percentages of how rapes are stopped...guns come out on top...

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t07/i4/jalt07i4p99.pdf

Except that states with more guns seems to have higher rape of course. Are you suggesting that being near a gun makes a man more likely to need sex with a stranger then?

Your evidence is what? It's just proving that you THINK that guns are better for dealing with rape. Not that they are. You made the assumption that guns are better.

First asks people what "potential victims" (ie, not people who actually were victims) think would be best. I mean, come on, you're trying to "prove" something with "some people who have never been raped think guns would be better".

Second is based on what? A survey. However we know that most rapes don't get reported. Maybe those who resisted with a gun (I'm not saying it didn't happen) or those who resisted at all would be more likely to tell the survey what they did. This was from a time, late 70s and early 80s when people were even less likely to report such things than today.

Third is about three types of crime bunged together. You can't make much of a case for rape here at all.

Fourth is about women who DID resist rape and were able to. What about those women who could not resist rape? Well, they probably got raped, didn't they?

I'm not saying a gun cannot be used in rape. I'm saying that rape in states where guns are more common in the hands of people appears to give higher rates of rape on average than states with lower amounts of guns in the hands of people.

You're saying this isn't the case and have "proven" this with a bunch of "studies" which don't tell us much at all.

The actual studies on the subject show guns allow women to stop violent rape...actual research.....and they tell more than what you assume......and again...you still haven't linked to your rape stats......who made up that graphic?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Fact is that only .00007% of gun owners are even likely to consider going on a shooting spree. When they do, they will choose a gun-free zone nearly every time. Even though the liklihood of being shot by a mass murderer is less than the chance of getting hit by lightning or way less than the chances of being killed in a car accident, the liberals are in a constant state of alarm just because people are allowed to own guns. Most murders are committed with knives. And more people die due to medical malpractice than any other, but liberals focus on the one thing that tyrants hate- armed citizens. Sorry, but if it was about safety, they would be up in arms about other things and not the right of citizens to own guns. Tyrants only fear people who are able to fight back against tyranny. And it's no coincidence that the left focuses on the 2nd amendment over other things that are far more likely to harm or kill people. They claim it's a safety issue, but I call bullshit considering the things they ignore.

If the left had gotten their way with gun control, those mass shootings would still have occurred. It would just mean a few more laws broken. I know many on the left actually would ban guns if they could. Some are honest about that, though I believe that is the endgame with most. Crazies and criminals never have trouble getting their hands on weapons. The theater shooter could have just as easily pipe bombed the theater or set it on fire and hurt even more people. If a mass murderer was going around tossing bombs, would the media get as upset as they do with guns? You'd think that people doing something illegal would be the biggest complaint and not the means they happen to choose. Murdering, in any fashion, should be the focus, but liberals only focus on shootings, particularly by white males. We don't see the same coverage when it's a Muslim shooting people at a base or a gang member with lots of kills under their belt.

The law abiding citizens, especially NRA members, are constantly told they are responsible whenever a mass shooting happens.

Funny that the auto companies don't get blamed for all the accidents and drunk drivers.

Cell phone companies don't get blamed for all the accidents caused by a driver texting. Hell, in that case, the government made sure they handed out more phones. Are they trying to kill people? I hope they know they will be responsible when a driver with an Obamaphone is texting and crosses the center line and kills someone.

Stores don't get called names for selling knives, rope, lighter fluid and other things often used in murders.

Only the NRA gets blamed for shootings, as if they have anything to do with the criminals and insane people who misuse their weapons. Luckily, it has been very few. Despite it being a rare occurrence, the left and the media act as if it's an epidemic. They ignore the real epidemics, which is gangs, and human or drug trafficking. How many people have died of drug overdoses and how many young girls have disappeared because of human trafficking? The left's answer is to legalize drugs. They likely want prostitution legalized. Not much is being done about the human traffickers because they are 10 steps ahead of law enforcement. Those problems occur every day and yet the media isn't sounding the alarms on that. They are too busy bashing the average gun owner because they disapprove of one of our rights.



"It is a sad truth that there are likely more mentally ill individuals in our nation who will one day get their hands on guns, legally or illegally, and take the lives of some innocent souls.

But some perspective is needed.

Let’s take that figure for the number of people killed in the last 30 years during a mass shooting of 560 and add another nine to it. That makes 569.

Now compare that number to 10,076. According to MADD, that’s the number of people killed during drunk driving crashes in 2013 alone. In fact, every day in America, another 28 people die in drunk driving crashes. Every. Single. Day.

Using the liberal logic of banning guns because of tragic (and thankfully, comparatively rare) mass shootings undertaken by crazy white folks (and some not so white), should we not then ban cars?

Cars clearly cause many more fatalities in terms of numbers each day than whack nuts with a gun.

Heck, we should ban bathtubs too. Because 341 people die from drowning and submersion while in or falling into bathtubs. And floors. We need to ban floors too, because 565 people die each year from slipping, tripping or falling.

I don’t mean to be flippant, or to trivialize this terrible tragedy. But as the stories fly around in the next few days regarding this event, you can be darn tootin’ liberals will begin pushing their agendas."

http://allenbwest.com/2015/06/heres-what-the-mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-about-mass-shootings/

Liberals are hostile to American Principle across the board. Their hostility against firearms is PURELY due to their hostility to American Principle... .

They can't move forward to REALLY grab power, with 250 million heavily armed Americans, stopping them.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Sorry...you are blaming law abiding people, you say it in your second sentence in this quote.....it isn't normal people that are stealing guns and using them....and of the 320 million guns in private hands only 8,454 were used to commit murder and those murders were not committed as "First Crimes" by normal people who just decided to kill someone. They were committed by career, violent criminals, mainly in inner city gangs and drug dealers in small, tiny, geographic areas in inner cities......


Not "first criminals."



And again....criminals in Europe get their guns as easily as our criminals get their guns, and they get fully automatic rifles and 30 round magazines, hand grenades, pistols and rocket propelled grenades...easily.


That they don't use them as often is culture, not access to guns. Even before the gun bans in Europe they were less violent than the United States.

I'm a little confused. Firstly, I said there is a problem, I didn't say I was blaming people. I said people having guns was a problem. It is. That doesn't mean it's their fault that things happen. But things do happen.


It's not "normal" that people are stealing guns. I don't see what "normal" has to do with this. It's happening. And it's not just stealing guns, there are other ways for guns to end up in the illegal supply chain. You know this. I know this. Unless you tackle these problems then you're always going to have issues with criminals having easy access to guns.


Criminals in Europe get guns as easily as in the US. I don't believe you. You've not backed anything up. I believe that criminals in Europe can get a hold of guns if they're willing to pay quite a bit for them, but many don't bother, because the expense for a gun is higher and criminals are far less likely to risk losing their guns.


I'm going to assume you don't have much personal experience with trying to get an illegal gun in Europe. Or even a legal one for that matter.

They lead to guns being used by criminals far more often.

No..this is not why American criminals use guns more often, they use guns more often because of the criminal culture in the United States, fueled by single teenage mothers raising children who then have children...without adult role models teaching impulse control, and civilized behavior....that causes the high gun murder rate..not guns.

Divorce happens in both countries. Single parents exist in both countries.
In the UK there are 2 million single parents to 14 million in the US. So the US has a higher rate of single parents, but that much higher. 1/4 of all families with dependent children are single parent in the UK, in the US it's about 10,000 families as single parent with a child under 18 from 35,000 families. So again, a slightly higher rate, but nothing that suggests a 5 times higher murder rate to me.


Gingerbread - Statistics - Research statistics facts and figures exploding myths stereotypes single parent work family unmarried poverty campaign

Single Parent Statistics - What Do They Tell Us - Single Parent Center

Family households F table series - People and Households - U.S. Census Bureau


I think there must be something else, not just single parent families. I would say poverty is a big part of this. Single parent families are more likely to struggle. The more help they get from the state then the easier their task. In the US help is a lot less available, and I'd suggest in certain states in the US it's almost non-existent and I'd be betting these states also have higher levels of crime. Again we go back to education and how it functions. Education in the UK is far more inclusive than education in the US.


http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/figures/images/figure-coi-2.gif

Black kids are less likely to graduate from high school. Poverty plays a part, as does single parent families which isn’t helped by poverty either.

Compare the two, they’re almost a reverse of each other. The number of kids graduating compared to the number of murders.

In the UK the system works differently, you need GCSEs which you take at about 16 years old.

“In 2010/11 79.6% of pupils in their last year of compulsory education in the UK achieved 5 or more GCSE grades A*-C or equivalent.”

So, nearly 80% of kids left school with the qualifications they need to go to the next level of education. In the US the rate is 80% of kids actually leaving education. No doubt many of those kids who leave school in the US, are in poverty.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Because our culture is becoming less violent, except in the inner cities controlled by democrat social welfare policies, law enforcement policies, and economic and education policies...fix those...and you will reduce crime in the murder capitals of this country.....chicago, detroit, new orleans, baltimore.....

And keep in mind...Baltimore has all the gun control you want....finger printing gun owners, assault weapon ban, magazine limits, universal background checks, no gun show "loophole" and there murder rate is spiking.....

Detroit, the Chief of police is telling residents to get guns and carry them...and their murder rate is the lowest in 47 years....

You're making the assumption that a state which takes guns out of circulation is going to have no guns. This isn't true. The problem is that guns in many states means guns in all states. It is a problem of trying to do something in a state where you can't control the borders.

Also, I'm not saying that guns can't help to reduce certain types of crime.

Detroit.

Crime in Detroit - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Homocide, 54.6, from a murder rate of 4.5 in 2013 US average.

"Annual increases in homicides, combined with a shrinking population, have made Detroit competitive with New Orleans for the highest murder rate in the nation"

Murders are going down in Detroit, so too is the population. The city went from 1.8 million people in the 1950s, to 1 million in the 1990s to 950,000 in 2000 and is now somewhere around 680,000 people. A great way to reduce crime is to see your population leave. I mean in 15 years to lose 250,000 people reduces crime no end.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The actual studies on the subject show guns allow women to stop violent rape...actual research.....and they tell more than what you assume......and again...you still haven't linked to your rape stats......who made up that graphic?

Studies which are based on.... on.... on.... what people think. NOT what is actually the case. You've shown four studies and they're all a load of rubbish. Sorry.

Which graphic?

I got my rape statistics from the disaster center.

U. S. Crime and Imprisonment Statistics Total and by State1960 - 2013

The rape map is from September 2012 Family Inequality

The source is the FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

FBI Table 5

Table 47. Assuming this is the one you wanted.