A lasting solution

[toomuchtime_]

The ones with the REAL money and the ones who brief the president. I still have an APB out for there names but no one will fess up yet.

If you don't know who these people are, what makes you think there are such people?

 

[Godboy]

If you don't know who these people are, what makes you think there are such people?

...because hes a typical wacky liberal. You know its funny, if the liberal arguements against Bush were actually relevent, why do they need to resort to making up lies about him? Why not just stick with the facts?

While im not a Bush fan, im not absurdly anti-Bush either, so i have a somewhat realistic veiw of what kind of person he REALLY is. Some of these liberals cant seem to make up ther minds...one day Bush is the evil mastermind behind 9/11, the next day hes an incompetent retard. One minute hes the care free playboy billionaire who loves cocaine and alcohol, then next hes this super ultra patriot, whos ready to risk going to prison for killing 3000 americans so he can blame terrorists for it, in an effort to galvanize the country to fight terrorism.

Look, you dont have to agree with differing political veiws, but when you demonize your political opposition by making up lies about them, you arent doing democracy any justice. Lies are lies, and you should know by now that its wrong to tell them.

Speaking of lies, isnt it funny how the same liberals who continue the rant about Bush lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, are themselves making up bold faced lies about Bush every day, yet somehow its ok when THEY do it?


...and by the way Dilloduck, if the president is a puppet as you describe, who are the people that are going to be pulling Obamas strings? Please tell me that your puppet theory doesnt only apply to Republican Presidents.

 

[Godboy]

...also, if something good is done by this administration and you give the credit for it to these secret rich men who pull the strings, yet when a so-called mistake is made, you blame Bush? Certainly you must be aware of your overwhelming bias here.

 

[FistyTheBadger]

I find it hard to believe that the AIDS assistance is not a front for other "security" intersests and further protecting spheres of influence. The plan just doesn't seem to work.

That's because you distrust and despise America.

 

[Xenophon]

Not sure if a Turkish presenace would be a good idea.

It could be viewed as proping up Hamas.

How active will Turkish forces be in stopping missle attacks?

And there is the long term view, as this was once a Turkish province less then a century ago.

 

[editec]

Israel should just tell the Palis they've got 20 days to evacuate and then level the place.

Given that the people of GAZA find that every road OUT of GAZA is closed to them, that's a bagel that won't roll.

Yeah, that's right they cannot migrate into Egypt OR Israel.

Sucks to be them, doesn't it?

That might be a fairly good example of why they voted for HAMAS.

When they're not rioting or lobbing rockets, the world ignores them and the fact that they are a people who are basically living in the world's largest prison.

 

[Ravi]

Given that the people of GAZA find that every road OUT of GAZA is closed to them, that's a begal that won't roll.

Yeah, that's right they cannot migrate into Egypt OR Isreal.

Sucks to be them, doesn't it?

It always amazes me that other Muslim countries don't want them. From what I can tell, the Muslim world uses the Palis as a tool.

 

[Munin]

Thats because you dont like Bush. Its funny how people can make stuff up and believe it without any facts backing up that claim. You just made it up out of thin air. The fact is, Bush has done more for Africans than ANYONE in the history of the world. The Bush haters cant stand that fact so they will do anything they can do pretend it isnt true. Im not a Bush fan by the way, but i wont deny what is fact.

Face it, everyone hates Bush. There are only a few things Bush managed to do good and "the AIDS help program" was one of them. It s only normal that we don't like to praise someone who fucked us (the US and the world) up so badly.

 

[jillian]

Yeah, that's right they cannot migrate into Egypt OR Israel.

Sucks to be them, doesn't it?

They can't live in Egypt or Gaza because they tried to terrorize those countries, too and no one there wants them...even though they're Jordanians.

 

[Munin]

I don't see how any foreign presence in Gaza can please Hamas, that would be to agree that their own policy failed and that they are not capable of governing. But maybe it is a good way to get rid of Hamas influence in the region, wich is why Fatah is very much in favor of this scenario.

Although I think it would be good if it would ever come to this "peace force" that the Turks would be a big part of it, after all they have a similar culture and understand the language.

But the question is wether Hamas will attack the Turks then and if the Turks will become a bigger muslim extremist target? And if the Turks are there, they should be obligated to intervene when Hamas fires rockets and could turn the palestinians against them this way (hostile Hamas -> hostile palestinians).

 

[editec]

It always amazes me that other Muslim countries don't want them. From what I can tell, the Muslim world uses the Palis as a tool.

Why does that amaze you?

What? Do you think every Arab thinks ever other person who is Arab is their brother, or something?

Egypt doesn't want to take responsibility for 800,000 Palestinian refugees.

Nobody does.

 

[editec]

They can't live in Egypt or Gaza because they tried to terrorize those countries, too and no one there wants them...even though they're Jordanians.

If you're going to play the they're all Jordanians game, then all of Isreal is part of Jordan, too, Jill.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Why does that amaze you?

What? Do you think every Arab thinks ever other person who is Arab is their brother, or something?

Egypt doesn't want to take responsibility for 800,000 Palestinian refugees.

Nobody does.

When complaining about Israel, don't the other Arabs call them their Palestinian brothers? Neither Egypt nor Jordan wants them because the Palestinians have become so radicalized that they are considered a destabilizing force by all the governments in the region. Other Arabs view this fact favorably when they think of the Palestinians destabilizing Israel but treat them with suspicion or outright hostility when they think they might destabilize an Arab country. Everyone pities them, but apparently no one wants to live with them.

 

[Ravi]

When complaining about Israel, don't the other Arabs call them their Palestinian brothers? Neither Egypt nor Jordan wants them because the Palestinians have become so radicalized that they are considered a destabilizing force by all the governments in the region. Other Arabs view this fact favorably when they think of the Palestinians destabilizing Israel but treat them with suspicion or outright hostility when they think they might destabilize an Arab country. Everyone pities them, but apparently no one wants to live with them.

Palis are the pit bulls of the human world.

 

[Munin]

Maybe this is a solution: make the wall higher so the rockets don't get over anymore, I sure would like to see the look on the faces of Hamas leaders if they see the rockets don't get over anymore.

Well maybe I shouldn't laugh with this, it is a serious problem: Why isn't Israel capable to destroy the rockets in the air, don't we have the modern technology to make some kind of "rocket schield"?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Palis are the pit bulls of the human world.

The Palestinians are the victims of generations of ruthless political tactics by Arab leaders who attempted to unify the disparate Arab peoples of the ME behind fear and hatred of Jews. There is a basis for this kind of attitude towards Jews in the Koran and Hadith, so it was easily accepted when Jews began to move back to their ancient homeland in large numbers. It was this steady stream of polemics from religious and political Arab leaders that led to the irrational mass exodus of Arabs from the new state of Israel in 1948-1949 and has led the Palestinians to view every peaceful overture by Israel with suspicion or outright hostility and violence ever since. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis are the victims of this campaign of hate and fear that has left them locked in combat that can benefit neither of them.

 

[editec]

The Palestinians are the victims of generations of ruthless political tactics by Arab leaders who attempted to unify the disparate Arab peoples of the ME behind fear and hatred of Jews.

Spot on.

There is a basis for this kind of attitude towards Jews in the Koran and Hadith, so it was easily accepted when Jews began to move back to their ancient homeland in large numbers.

Score!

It was this steady stream of polemics from religious and political Arab leaders that led to the irrational mass exodus of Arabs from the new state of Israel in 1948-1949

It's hardly irrational to get out of the way of a war, I think. Certainly it was entirely rational for those Palestinians who were driven from their homes at the point of a gun to leave, too, and many of them were.

and has led the Palestinians to view every peaceful overture by Israel with suspicion or outright hostility and violence ever since.

And the fact that those refugees were mostly not allowed to return to their homes after the war was concluded didn't help much, either.

Both the Palestinians and the Israelis are the victims of this campaign of hate and fear that has left them locked in combat that can benefit neither of them.

Yes, exactly.

We pitted two people one against the other in 1918 when we granted Zionists the right to create a Jewish state in what had become an Arab land.

Now the Brits didn't actually pull the trigger on that declaration until 1948, but pull it they (and the rest of the Western world) surely did.

At this stage of the game the Israelis have as legitimate a right to the land as the Palestinians who are still clamoring for the end to that nation.

Even more so, just so long as they can hold onto it, in fact.

That is the nature of war, isn't it?

Nations are under no real obligation (except for lip service, of course) to be anything but partisans of the people they represent.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Spot on.



Score!



It's hardly irrational to get out of the way of a war, I think. Certainly it was entirely rational for those Palestinians who were driven from their homes at the point of a gun to leave, too, and many of them were.



And the fact that those refugees were mostly not allowed to return to their homes after the war was concluded didn't help much, either.



Yes, exactly.

We pitted two people one against the other in 1918 when we granted Zionists the right to create a Jewish state in what had become an Arab land.

Now the Brits didn't actually pull the trigger on that declaration until 1948, but pull it they (and the rest of the Western world) surely did.

At this stage of the game the Israelis have as legitimate a right to the land as the Palestinians who are still clamoring for the end to that nation.

Even more so, just so long as they can hold onto it, in fact.

That is the nature of war, isn't it?

Nations are under no real obligation (except for lip service, of course) to be anything but partisans of the people they represent.

There is no evidence that more than a relative few Arabs were driven from their homes by Jews, and where this did occur, it was in the context of ongoing skirmishes between the Jews and Arabs in which each was trying to drive the other out. However, there are reports from British officials, who were still everywhere, that in the larger communities, Jewish leaders pleaded with the Arabs not to leave and promised to protect them when the invasion came. These pleas were largely ignored because for more than a generation virtually all Arab leaders had warned Arabs not to distrust and fear Jews.

You presume, without any basis in fact, that the Arabs left out of fear of being caught in a crossfire, but there is considerable reason to believe that many of the Arabs left because they believed the lies from Arab leaders about what the Jews would do to them if they stayed, that is, because they regarded Jews as the enemy and the invading Arab states as their protectors. Regardless of why the Arabs left, it is a fact that all those who did leave joined the enemies who were about to attack Israel and at least some of them fought alongside the invading Arab armies.

Certainly, Israel had good reason to believe a great many of those who left regarded Jews and Israel as their enemies and supported the stated goal of the Arab countries to destroy Israel, and since the Arab countries unanimously maintained that they were still at war with Israel until 1979 and, with the exceptions of Egypt and Jordan still do, it would have been dangerously irresponsible of Israel to have allowed many thousands - tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands? - of Arabs who supported the destruction of the state of Israel by nations who were still at war with Israel to return.

Nonetheless, Israel has always made a distinction between the rights of individual Arabs and the claims of political rights of groups of Arabs. and any Arab who left or any of their descendants was always free to apply to the state of Israel to return on an individual basis, and while over the three generations since that war many thousands have applied and been allowed to return, their numbers were never more than a tiny fraction of those who claimed the political right to return. Why would that be so unless the claim of a right to return is an act of opposition to the existence of the Jewish state of Israel rather than an expression of the desire to return to their (or some ancestor's) home and village?

So the Palestinians are to be pitied as victims, victims not of the creation of the state of Israel but of Arab invasion of the new state of Israel and of their own misguided belief that if they had stayed the Jews would have done terrible things to them and if they left the conquering Arab armies would protect them. And they remain stateless because their continued opposition to the existence to the Jewish state of Israel has led them to demand a political right of return for all the descendants of all the Arabs who left rather than to pursue their always available individual rights or the best interests of their families elsewhere.