A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[Lonestar_logic]

There is no way that I can be civil to those that advocate our nation use torture.

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

Are you talking about the few that voluntarially go thru torture testing?

If you volunteer to do something it is no longer torture.
Kinda like if I volunteered to watch Fox Nooze for a week non stop.
or listen to only country and western music.

It's more than a few. And whether voluntary are not, it's either "torture" or it isn't.

You clowns want to have it both ways.

 

[del]

Ah well, Old Rocks has gallantly negged me a whopping -68 pts for expressing a point of view he doesn't agree with. So much for keeping debate and differences of opinion civil, huh. Egads, I may never recover.

So on that note, I'm going to bed with a good movie and will see all you good people back tomorrow. Good night.

There is no way that I can be civil to those that advocate our nation use torture.

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

it must pain you to have your head so far up your ass that you can't see the difference between doing something of your own free will and being forced to submit.

 

[del]

If one rejects the self-serving liberal premise that waterboarding "is" torture, then the matter is nowhere near as clear as the piece quoted in del's OP suggests.

The value of the OP begins with a seriously debated premise and, imho, it therefore falls flat.

you should let jacoby know he's a liberal.

i'm sure he'll be surprised.

 

[del]

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

Are you talking about the few that voluntarially go thru torture testing?

If you volunteer to do something it is no longer torture.
Kinda like if I volunteered to watch Fox Nooze for a week non stop.
or listen to only country and western music.

It's more than a few. And whether voluntary are not, it's either "torture" or it isn't.

You clowns want to have it both ways.

how's your small intestine looking?

 

[Dr.Drock]

There is no way that I can be civil to those that advocate our nation use torture.

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

it must pain you to have your head so far up your ass that you can't see the difference between doing something of your own free will and being forced to submit.

Yeah he doesn't get it, and never will.

That's just as stupid as thinking a boxer losing a fight is the same as being jumped and beat up in the street.

 

[Jack Fate]

If one rejects the self-serving liberal premise that waterboarding "is" torture, then the matter is nowhere near as clear as the piece quoted in del's OP suggests.

The value of the OP begins with a seriously debated premise and, imho, it therefore falls flat.

you should let jacoby know he's a liberal.

i'm sure he'll be surprised.

So if we pretend we are drowning a terrorist it's called torture. What do you call it when we shoot an unarmed terrorist in the eyeball without a trial? Dumb ass.

 

[del]

If one rejects the self-serving liberal premise that waterboarding "is" torture, then the matter is nowhere near as clear as the piece quoted in del's OP suggests.

The value of the OP begins with a seriously debated premise and, imho, it therefore falls flat.

you should let jacoby know he's a liberal.

i'm sure he'll be surprised.

So if we pretend we are drowning a terrorist it's called torture. What do you call it when we shoot an unarmed terrorist in the eyeball without a trial? Dumb ass.

i'm sorry.

we've met our quota for stupid in this thread.

try again later

 

[Valerie]

I'm saying that the leftwing will NOT even look at, much less discuss, what they would do in a crisis situation in which hundreds or thousands of innocent lives were at stake. The conservatives have at least acknowledged they would not apply the standard policy at such times.


I used an illustration from a scene in "Guarding Tess" and said it would be ignored. It was.

And I think I know how it works well enough to believe that had the Annointed One been the one to use waterboarding to get useful information on the whereabout of bin Laden instead of that happening during the Bush Administraation, we probably would not have enough discussion about it to fill twenty seven pages of a thread now.

The current administration did act on intelligence that was obtained by President Bush.


In my my book, some things go way beyond politics... I think it's sad some people have such little faith in the intentions of their fellow Americans...

I wasn't talking about how the intelligence gained was used though Val. I was referring to the posts regarding water boarding for ANY reason. The point is because the Bush Administration allowed it, they are still scum despite the results re bin Laden. It still violated international law and never should have been used, yadda yadda.

However, if the enhanced interrogation had been authorized under Obama with the same results, the same people trashing Bush and waterboarding would now be looking for ways to defend it.

And most of those condemning water boarding won't discuss any remote reason to deviate from a no-waterboarding standard policy.

And perhaps I am second guessing some folks here, but it comes from long experience and observation of this kind of phenomenon over a lot of years now. It has become pretty predictable.

America is still in a situation where we are being threatened with a potential crisis situation where hundreds or thousands of innocent lives could be lost...


The author of the article is not a "lefty", del is not a "lefty", the US Military JAGS, Colin Powell, not "lefties"... This is not a matter of left/right politics, but a matter of long standing American principles, that is the entire point of the OP, so I'm not sure why you imagine lefties should come in here and speculate about hypotheticals which would justify torture...???

There was good reason why waterboarding was one of the war crimes for which Japanese officers were hanged after World War II.


Torture is unreliable, since people will often say anything — invent desperate fictions or diversions — to stop the pain or fear. That doesn’t mean waterboarding will never yield valuable information. Feeding a detainee into an industrial shredder, as Saddam Hussein’s torturers sometimes did, might yield valuable information too. But some techniques are forbidden not because they never work, not because they aren’t deserved, but because our very right to call ourselves decent human beings depends in part on our not doing them.

Like chemical and biological warfare, torture is something we refuse to engage in, despite its potential effectiveness, on the grounds that it is fundamentally immoral and uncivilized. Our repudiation of torture is absolute — the international Convention Against Torture, ratified by the United States in 1994, allows for “no exceptional circumstances whatsoever.’’ That unconditional repudiation is one of the lines that separates us from the barbaric jihadists with whom we are at war.

The killing of bin Laden was gratifying, but it was no vindication of torture.

Ends don?t justify the means - Page 2 - Boston.com

These arguments set off a furious response from the State Department and the military's uniformed lawyers, known as Judge Advocate Generals (JAGs). They argued that not applying Geneva protections could harm U.S. troops in this and future conflicts. Secretary Powell also argued in a memo to Gonzales and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice that applying Geneva would allow the U.S. to take the moral high ground and would "present a positive international posture."

Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[Lonestar_logic]

There is no way that I can be civil to those that advocate our nation use torture.

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

it must pain you to have your head so far up your ass that you can't see the difference between doing something of your own free will and being forced to submit.

Being voluntary doesn't make the act any more comfortable.

 

[bodecea]

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

it must pain you to have your head so far up your ass that you can't see the difference between doing something of your own free will and being forced to submit.

Being voluntary doesn't make the act any more comfortable.

But it certainly guarantees it will stop before you are hurt...even in SERE school, that is the case.

 

[Vanquish]

It was amazing to see that weatherman on Fox and Friends get his ass handed to him this morning when he tried to prove waterboarding was ok....against John McCain.

McCain said it absolutely WAS torture and that it DIDN'T lead to actionable intelligence about OBL. In fact, he went on to say that it gave LIES that would have been a waste of time and resources.

"Tales from the Dad Side?" what a dumb-ass name for what is surely a dumb-ass book.

 

[Samson]

you should let jacoby know he's a liberal.

i'm sure he'll be surprised.

So if we pretend we are drowning a terrorist it's called torture. What do you call it when we shoot an unarmed terrorist in the eyeball without a trial? Dumb ass.

i'm sorry.

we've met our quota for stupid in this thread.

try again later

Shit!!

A USMB Thread has "MET ITS QUOTA FOR STUPID!!!"


ALERT THE MEDIA!!!


STOP THE PRESS!!!!!

 

[Valerie]

The Pentagon on Saturday released five videos recovered from Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan, revealing the first glimpses of the al-Qaida leader's life behind the compound walls.

One video shows a grey-bearded bin Laden wrapped in a blanket on the floor, watching news coverage of himself on a small television. The room is barren and undecorated, with a rolled-up carpet beside him and wires hanging from an outlet in the wall. Officials said another video contains a never-released message to the American people, according to the Los Angeles Times. The videos were released without audio to avoid spreading terrorist propaganda.

An intelligence official interviewed by the New York Times said the videos indicate that bin Laden was intensely focused on his image and deeply immersed in the terrorist group al-Qaida's propoganda efforts.

Videos Seized from bin Laden's Compound Released | The Rundown News Blog | PBS NewsHour | PBS

A video was released without audio?

The current government is the biggest pack of liars Nothing they give out can be believed.

If our government is so trustworthy why didn't the FBI want him for the attacks on the world trade center?

Because the gathering of evidence on that particular charge was still ongoing...

US Attorney General Eric Holder has said that the raid on Osama Bin Laden's hideout, in which the al-Qaeda leader was killed, was "not an assassination".

Mr Holder told the BBC the operation was a "kill or capture mission" and that Bin Laden's surrender would have been accepted if offered.

The protection of the Navy Seals who carried out the raid was "uppermost in our minds", he added.

Bin Laden was shot dead on 2 May in his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

Mr Holder said the special forces had acted "in an appropriate way" in the absence of any clear indication Bin Laden had been going to surrender.

"If the possibility had existed, if there was the possibility of a feasible surrender, that would have occurred," he said.

"But their protection, that is the protection of the force that went into that compound, was I think uppermost in our minds."

The attorney general reiterated that the operation was legal, saying that international law allows the targeting of enemy commanders.



"The information we have... showed that [Bin Laden] was pushing al-Qaeda to engage in more plots in more areas of the world and on specific dates”


"I actually think that the dotting of the i's and the crossing of the t's is what separates the United States, the United Kingdom, our allies, from those who we are fighting," he said.

BBC News - Bin Laden death 'not an assassination' - Eric Holder

 

[Lonestar_logic]

it must pain you to have your head so far up your ass that you can't see the difference between doing something of your own free will and being forced to submit.

Being voluntary doesn't make the act any more comfortable.

But it certainly guarantees it will stop before you are hurt...even in SERE school, that is the case.

The detainees have the same guarantee. Medics are present during every session.

 

[CountofTuscany]

Moral of the story - waterboarding, which leaves no permenant damage, is wrong. Putting a bullet in an someone's head is A-OK.

Liberal logic at its best folks.

So, we should be a "cruel and unusual punishment" country now as well as a death sentence country.

I have absolutely no issues with the death sentence.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It was amazing to see that weatherman on Fox and Friends get his ass handed to him this morning when he tried to prove waterboarding was ok....against John McCain.

McCain said it absolutely WAS torture and that it DIDN'T lead to actionable intelligence about OBL. In fact, he went on to say that it gave LIES that would have been a waste of time and resources.

"Tales from the Dad Side?" what a dumb-ass name for what is surely a dumb-ass book.

The CIA (the ones that actually engaged in waterboarding) says different.

 

[Jack Fate]

you should let jacoby know he's a liberal.

i'm sure he'll be surprised.

So if we pretend we are drowning a terrorist it's called torture. What do you call it when we shoot an unarmed terrorist in the eyeball without a trial? Dumb ass.

i'm sorry.

we've met our quota for stupid in this thread.

try again later[/QUOTE

Pitiful. Asswipe punk.

 

[del]

Being voluntary doesn't make the act any more comfortable.

But it certainly guarantees it will stop before you are hurt...even in SERE school, that is the case.

The detainees have the same guarantee. Medics are present during every session.

i'm sure people at auschwitz found great comfort in having doctor mengele at hand.

 

[uscitizen]

It must pain you to live in a country that "tortures" it's own soldiers.

Are you talking about the few that voluntarially go thru torture testing?

If you volunteer to do something it is no longer torture.
Kinda like if I volunteered to watch Fox Nooze for a week non stop.
or listen to only country and western music.

Or when someone voluteers to do it for charity.

I would not even watch fox nooze for a week for charity. I do have limits.

 

[spectrumc01]

There are really only two POV's on this issue of waterboarding, you are either Ok with it or not. This comes down to a moral principal which a person has regarding torture. The question that must be asked is wether or not we are comfortable with others inflicting pain on another person, on our behalf. Lets face it, how many of us could actually torture someone else? What kind of person can do such a thing, and how as a society could we ask someone to do it on our behalf? When a soldier waterboards a terrorist what are we doing to the soldier, does anyone ever think about that? Perhaps we should let the BTK killer do the waterboarding, he seems right for the job. Do we want someone walking around in our society who tortures people for a living? Do we want this persons identity made public? Can a torturer just stop torturing when they have done it for an extended period of time? Does the torturer get counciling before and after? This is a hell of a thing to ask of someone to do and we should think long and hard before we ask them to do it.