a bold challenge to the orthodox definition of life

[scruffy]

• A popular view in mainstream science is that life is a kind of illusion, one fully explainable by the laws governing atoms
• treating living agents as some kind of illusory sideshow to a fictional “theory of everything” is a foundational mistake
• the key distinction between life and other kinds of “things” is the role of information. Life needs information. It senses it, stores it, copies it, transmits it, and processes it.

A bold challenge to the orthodox definition of life

In her new book, Sara Walker explains why the key distinction between life and other kinds of "things" is how the living use information.

bigthink.com

This is my view too, that I've been sharing with you.

In my view it's even deeper than that. Information is basic to the universe, it permeates physics at all levels.

Commentary:

Scientists Discover “Spatial Grammar” in DNA: Breakthrough Could Rewrite Genetics Textbooks

Researchers have discovered a "spatial grammar" in DNA that redefines the role of transcription factors in gene regulation, influencing our understanding of genetic variations and disease. A recently uncovered code within DNA, referred to as "spatial grammar," may unlock the secret to how gene ac

scitechdaily.com

 

[Votto]

• A popular view in mainstream science is that life is a kind of illusion, one fully explainable by the laws governing atoms
• treating living agents as some kind of illusory sideshow to a fictional “theory of everything” is a foundational mistake
• the key distinction between life and other kinds of “things” is the role of information. Life needs information. It senses it, stores it, copies it, transmits it, and processes it.

A bold challenge to the orthodox definition of life

In her new book, Sara Walker explains why the key distinction between life and other kinds of "things" is how the living use information.

bigthink.com

This is my view too, that I've been sharing with you.

In my view it's even deeper than that. Information is basic to the universe, it permeates physics at all levels.

Commentary:

Scientists Discover “Spatial Grammar” in DNA: Breakthrough Could Rewrite Genetics Textbooks

Researchers have discovered a "spatial grammar" in DNA that redefines the role of transcription factors in gene regulation, influencing our understanding of genetic variations and disease. A recently uncovered code within DNA, referred to as "spatial grammar," may unlock the secret to how gene ac

scitechdaily.com

Ok, Ok, let me get my Roe vs. Wade slide ruler out.

When is it Ok to kill the kiddo again?

 

[ReinyDays]

Cellular life is defined as things surrounded with a cell membrane ... of either type ... and that's exclusive, either it's a cell or it's not, there's nothing in between ... at least not in the oxidizing environment that exists today ... viruses are not cellular life, as they have no cell membrane; although in some contexts it is useful to consider them life ...

Otherwise, science doesn't define life unless it's useful to do so ... and this can be as broad as anything with the element carbon in it, as in Organic Chemistry ... because we rarely see these compounds outside of life ...

My coffee cup information is "11/16th millifurlong tall, 3/8th millifurlong wide and so roughly a quarter cubic millifurlong in volume" ... when should I expect baby coffee cups? ...

Ok, Ok, let me get my Roe vs. Wade slide ruler out.
When is it Ok to kill the kiddo again?

Life begins at 40 don't you know ...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

• A popular view in mainstream science is that life is a kind of illusion, one fully explainable by the laws governing atoms
• treating living agents as some kind of illusory sideshow to a fictional “theory of everything” is a foundational mistake
• the key distinction between life and other kinds of “things” is the role of information. Life needs information. It senses it, stores it, copies it, transmits it, and processes it.

A bold challenge to the orthodox definition of life

In her new book, Sara Walker explains why the key distinction between life and other kinds of "things" is how the living use information.

bigthink.com

This is my view too, that I've been sharing with you.

In my view it's even deeper than that. Information is basic to the universe, it permeates physics at all levels.

Commentary:

Scientists Discover “Spatial Grammar” in DNA: Breakthrough Could Rewrite Genetics Textbooks

Researchers have discovered a "spatial grammar" in DNA that redefines the role of transcription factors in gene regulation, influencing our understanding of genetic variations and disease. A recently uncovered code within DNA, referred to as "spatial grammar," may unlock the secret to how gene ac

scitechdaily.com

 

[Wuwei]

the key distinction between life and other kinds of “things” is the role of information. Life needs information. It senses it, stores it, copies it, transmits it, and processes it.

I hardly think information is much of a defining role for humans because of alternate facts, gaslighting, fake news, heterogeneous media philosophy, and the extremely small signal to noise level of social sites.

 

[scruffy]

Cellular life is defined as things surrounded with a cell membrane ... of either type ... and that's exclusive, either it's a cell or it's not, there's nothing in between ... at least not in the oxidizing environment that exists today ... viruses are not cellular life, as they have no cell membrane; although in some contexts it is useful to consider them life ...
...

Well, micelles have cell membranes too and they're not life.

But if you add to your definition the ability to manipulate information we could begin to agree.

There is no life we know of, that doesn't manipulate information. And as you say, computers have no cell membrane.

 

[ding]

Is seems to me that the desire to blend non-living things with living things is following the trajectory of blending genders and pronouns.

It seems that crazy is as crazy does.

 

[ReinyDays]

Well, micelles have cell membranes too and they're not life.

But if you add to your definition the ability to manipulate information we could begin to agree.

There is no life we know of, that doesn't manipulate information. And as you say, computers have no cell membrane.

Do you have a citation that micelles have cell membranes? ... plant and animal cell membranes are composed of a bi-layer lipid sheet, with ion channels dotted all around gathering food and expelling waste ... micelles have none of these critical passageways ...

Cell membrane is a very specific structure ... and all of cellular life has this structure ... both types carry these ion channels, or it's not cellular life ... on the other paw, if you think viruses are life, then we've a whole universe we need to explore ... anything goes right? ...

Is the information of the process the process itself ... or just a description of what the process is ... keep in mind, humans can lie about information; we also need discernment ... because we lie to ourselves most of all ...

 

[scruffy]

Do you have a citation that micelles have cell membranes? ... plant and animal cell membranes are composed of a bi-layer lipid sheet, with ion channels dotted all around gathering food and expelling waste ... micelles have none of these critical passageways ...

If they have those things then they are processing information, would you agree? Ion channels require information processing.

Cell membrane is a very specific structure ... and all of cellular life has this structure ... both types carry these ion channels, or it's not cellular life ... on the other paw, if you think viruses are life, then we've a whole universe we need to explore ... anything goes right? ...

Viruses are static entities, they are incapable of processing information on their own. They require the information processing machinery of the cell to reproduce.

Is the information of the process the process itself ... or just a description of what the process is ... keep in mind, humans can lie about information; we also need discernment ... because we lie to ourselves most of all ...

Lying is information processing too. So is discernment. But ChatGPT can do both of those things.

 

[ReinyDays]

If they have those things then they are processing information, would you agree? Ion channels require information processing.

Micelles don't have those things ... ion channels attract the ions, not information, just existence ... when we mix sodium and chlorine ions, they naturally form salt ... just because they exist ... we have information about this process, but sodium and chlorine ions aren't smart enough to understand this information ... they can only do what comes natural ... form salt ... they don't need information, and none is used ...

 

[scruffy]

Micelles don't have those things ... ion channels attract the ions, not information, just existence ... when we mix sodium and chlorine ions, they naturally form salt ... just because they exist ... we have information about this process, but sodium and chlorine ions aren't smart enough to understand this information ... they can only do what comes natural ... form salt ... they don't need information, and none is used ...

Yeah really?

How are you going to make an ion channel without information?

 

[ReinyDays]

Yeah really?

How are you going to make an ion channel without information?

Right ... ion channels don't use information themselves ... they just are ...

How are you going to make an ion channel without ATP? ...

 

[scruffy]

Right ... ion channels don't use information themselves ... they just are ...

No, they had to be built. From DNA, then RNA.

How are you going to make an ion channel without ATP? ...

More information processing. Where does the protein put the ATP binding site so the subunits move apart and the ion passes through?

 

[ReinyDays]

No, they had to be built. From DNA, then RNA.
More information processing. Where does the protein put the ATP binding site so the subunits move apart and the ion passes through?

ATP is used in the manufacturing of proteins ... maybe you should review your biology class notes if you've forgotten what ATP is used for ...

The ribosome uses information, but the ribosome isn't itself information ...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

• A popular view in mainstream science is that life is a kind of illusion, one fully explainable by the laws governing atoms
• treating living agents as some kind of illusory sideshow to a fictional “theory of everything” is a foundational mistake
• the key distinction between life and other kinds of “things” is the role of information. Life needs information. It senses it, stores it, copies it, transmits it, and processes it.

A bold challenge to the orthodox definition of life

In her new book, Sara Walker explains why the key distinction between life and other kinds of "things" is how the living use information.

bigthink.com

This is my view too, that I've been sharing with you.

In my view it's even deeper than that. Information is basic to the universe, it permeates physics at all levels.

Commentary:

Scientists Discover “Spatial Grammar” in DNA: Breakthrough Could Rewrite Genetics Textbooks

Researchers have discovered a "spatial grammar" in DNA that redefines the role of transcription factors in gene regulation, influencing our understanding of genetic variations and disease. A recently uncovered code within DNA, referred to as "spatial grammar," may unlock the secret to how gene ac

scitechdaily.com

The article about Sara Walker that you cited, contains this paragraph:

While it’s possible to describe a rock in terms of the information in its crystal structure, the rock doesn’t care. The physics of the rock doesn’t require the informational view because information is not needed to account for the rock’s behavior.

So obviously she does not maintain that "everything is alive" as you do. I await the usual hocus pocus, hand waving and redefining of terms from you, that often accompanies your responses, when blatant contradictions are pointed out to you.

The article also talks about "assembly theory", the empty "theory" peddled by Lee Cronin and rebutted by mathematicians and information scientists (because it amounts to nothing more than Huffman coding, data compression).

E.g.

Due to Assembly Theory's current lack of logical consistency in defining causality for non-stochastic processes and the lack of empirical evidence that it outperforms other complexity measures found in the literature capable of explaining the same phenomena, we conclude that the assembly index and the assembly number do not lead to an explanation or quantification of biases in generative (physical or biological) processes, including those brought about by (abiotic or Darwinian) selection and evolution, that could not have been arrived at using Shannon Entropy or that have not been reported before using classical information theory or algorithmic complexity.

Source.

Here's the full text of that rebuttal paper.

Additionally Prof. Hector Zenil, has this to say this article:

Note that before making any of this information public, we kindly and respectfully approached the authors of Assembly Theory on multiple occasions, as early as 2017 and earlier, even offering advice gratis, with no expectation of credit. Yet not only did they decline, but having corrected just a few errors in their 2017 paper that became too obvious once I’d pointed them out (correspondence available upon request), we were met with insults. We have tried to focus our criticisms on the content of AT and the way authors conduct science or communicate their results, which we think are valid and legitimate concerns.

and

We have argued that the authors’ marketing and promotional activities, deployed in service of what we think is a fallacious concept and a poorly examined methodology, are unfortunate and scientifically irresponsible.

Having interacted with you now for some weeks, I am of the opinion that you exemplify the garden variety "crank" all too often peddling their latter day versions of alchemy. I know there are some crank creationists, I confronted them when I was an evolutionist and still confront them today when they speak gibberish, but people need to be on their guard for crank atheists, the latter are more dangerous because they carry a presumption of validity and thus trap the unwary more easily that do crank creationists.

 

[scruffy]

ATP is used in the manufacturing of proteins ... maybe you should review your biology class notes if you've forgotten what ATP is used for ...

The ribosome uses information, but the ribosome isn't itself information ...

HORSESHIT.

The ribosome is a complex molecule that requires a great deal of information to assemble.

 

[scruffy]

The article about Sara Walker that you cited, contains this paragraph:



So obviously she does not maintain that "everything is alive" as you do. I await the usual hocus pocus, hand waving and redefining of terms from you, that often accompanies your responses, when blatant contradictions are pointed out to you.

The article also talks about "assembly theory", the empty "theory" peddled by Lee Cronin and rebutted by mathematicians and information scientists (because it amounts to nothing more than Huffman coding, data compression).

E.g.



Source.

Here's the full text of that rebuttal paper.

Additionally Prof. Hector Zenil, has this to say this article:



and



Having interacted with you now for some weeks, I am of the opinion that you exemplify the garden variety "crank" all too often peddling their latter day versions of alchemy. I know there are some crank creationists, I confronted them when I was an evolutionist and still confront them today when they speak gibberish, but people need to be on their guard for crank atheists, the latter are more dangerous because they carry a presumption of validity and thus trap the unwary more easily that do crank creationists.

For the umpteenth time, you're not a scientist, and your only purpose here is to badmouth science.

I'll let people judge for themselves who's a crank and who's not.

 

[scruffy]

Assembly theory is a somewhat non rigorous attempt to take a shortcut to the rigorous graphing method I showed you.

In many cases it works, in others it doesn't.

We can use math to determine which cases will work

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

For the umpteenth time, you're not a scientist.

How do you know?

and your only purpose here is to badmouth science.

That's an interpretation you've made, show me the post where you think I did that, I'll be happy to explain.

I'll let people judge for themselves who's a crank and who's not.

I did just that, I judged for myself that you're a crank.

 

[ReinyDays]

HORSESHIT.

The ribosome is a complex molecule that requires a great deal of information to assemble.

What information is that? ... looks to me like it needs atoms to assemble ...

What if there was no information, would the atoms still assemble? ... does a carbon atom need information to oxidize ... or does she oxidize whether there's information or not ...

Another thing these complex molecules need is energy, or ATP ... that's not true for rocks, which is silicon and aluminum in his and her fully oxidized states, or lowest energy level ... what we find in almost every molecule within cellular life is reduced carbon peppered with bare nakked protons using solar energy through photosynthesis ...

Do vacuums contain information? ...