.45 ACP ball has same momentum as 223 sp, BUT

[prison/con.net]

when you chest-shoot feral dogs and coyotes with each of those rds, .45 ball lets them run off 50 yds or more (almost always) and 223 softpoints drop them (almost always) and they are unable to get up again! This is despite the fact that the .45 has >4x the "frontal area" of the .223 bullet(at impact)

Thus, we can PROVE that SOMEPLACE on the velocity scale, energy delivered to the target means a lot more than momentum and bullet diameter. Cooper himself agreed that this is so, and said that the threshold velocity for this to be the case was at Mach II, ie, 2200 fps. Fackler's jello studies and battlefield injury experience supports this. Google for MagSafe Ammo (specs page) and see 2200+ fps for 9mm, 357 Sig, several other calibers. MS's bullets are a bs idea, being made of epoxy, but the same weight bullet CAN be made of solid copper rod, and is legal to possess, use and sell, in all but a couple of states. Ill and CA require handgun bullets to have a "lead core".

 

[prison/con.net]

the 223, tho, has 3x the energy of the .45, and .45 ball wastes at least 1/3rd of its energy on overpenetration, while the 223 softpoint USES nearly all of its energy in a target that's no thicker than a man. That's why we see such tremendous differences in the effect of the 2 rds on canines. The .45 has just had BILLIONs more LIES told about it, that's all.
Momentum is determined by mass x velocity. The 223 has 1/3rd of the bullet weight, but 3x the velocity,so it's got the same momentum as the .45.

ENERGY, however is the bullet wt (in grains) x the square of the velocity (in feet per second). Then divide that product by 450,000. Yeah, I DO it's really 450,438, but the last 3 numbers don't change anything and I can do the 450k thing in my head.

 

[9thIDdoc]

What is actually important is where the bullet is placed more than any other factor. Energy that is not expended in the target does not affect the target and is wasted for practical purposes.
The ,223 is not an especially potent rifle round and the 9mm is a not especially potent pistol round.

 

[westwall]

when you chest-shoot feral dogs and coyotes with each of those rds, .45 ball lets them run off 50 yds or more (almost always) and 223 softpoints drop them (almost always) and they are unable to get up again! This is despite the fact that the .45 has >4x the "frontal area" of the .223 bullet(at impact)

Thus, we can PROVE that SOMEPLACE on the velocity scale, energy delivered to the target means a lot more than momentum and bullet diameter. Cooper himself agreed that this is so, and said that the threshold velocity for this to be the case was at Mach II, ie, 2200 fps. Fackler's jello studies and battlefield injury experience supports this. Google for MagSafe Ammo (specs page) and see 2200+ fps for 9mm, 357 Sig, several other calibers. MS's bullets are a bs idea, being made of epoxy, but the same weight bullet CAN be made of solid copper rod, and is legal to possess, use and sell, in all but a couple of states. Ill and CA require handgun bullets to have a "lead core".

Figure out the momentum for a 16 pound bowling ball at normal bowling velocity. Way more powerful than your pipsqueak .45. In other words they are just numbers on a cereal box that have no bearing on real world performance.

 

[Roadrunner]

What is actually important is where the bullet is placed more than any other factor. Energy that is not expended in the target does not affect the target and is wasted for practical purposes.
The ,223 is not an especially potent rifle round and the 9mm is a not especially potent pistol round.

There are scores of guns of various calibers for a multitude of purposes.

That is why a man cannot have too many.

.223 is cheap, biggest thing it has going.

My SIg is a good light hog gun, when you are just out exploring and might run up on a bunch.

 

[prison/con.net]

not true at all. 9mm is THE rd for pocket pistols and front pants pocket holster is THE carry mode. 223 softpoints have PlENTY of stopping power, well proven, so why limit yourself by carrying more gun or ammo weight than a fight.

The argument is that at SOME point on the velocity scale, momentum and bullet diamater mean a LOT less than the temporary gas cavity destruction and shock . Handguns, at pistol combat ranges, CAN attain "rifle like" effects on canines. that's provable. It's also provabale that 230 gr .45 jhp's dont expand in chest cavities.

Yes, what you hit matters, IF it's the brain or spine. Otherwise, it doesnt' matter. Heart hits still take 4-5 seconds (or sometimes a LOT more) to shut down deer or men. When somebody is shooting or stabbing you 4x per second (with each hand) you'll FINALLY figure out that 4 seconds is 4 seconds too damned SLOW.

Shock and the hydrostatic effect of the hi-v rd is not a guarantee, but I CAN guarantee you that physical incapacitation is WAy too slow! Anyone with a mere chest hit (or 3) by handgun bullets, if they stop in less than 4 seconds, it was a psychological quitting, which is often subconscious. But it was NOT a physical incapacitation in less than 4 seconds. that's impossible, from mere blood loss or loss of organ function.

 

[westwall]

not true at all. 9mm is THE rd for pocket pistols and front pants pocket holster is THE carry mode. 223 softpoints have PlENTY of stopping power, well proven, so why limit yourself by carrying more gun or ammo weight than a fight.

The argument is that at SOME point on the velocity scale, momentum and bullet diamater mean a LOT less than the temporary gas cavity destruction and shock . Handguns, at pistol combat ranges, CAN attain "rifle like" effects on canines. that's provable. It's also provabale that 230 gr .45 jhp's dont expand in chest cavities.

Yes, what you hit matters, IF it's the brain or spine. Otherwise, it doesnt' matter. Heart hits still take 4-5 seconds (or sometimes a LOT more) to shut down deer or men. When somebody is shooting or stabbing you 4x per second (with each hand) you'll FINALLY figure out that 4 seconds is 4 seconds too damned SLOW.

Shock and the hydrostatic effect of the hi-v rd is not a guarantee, but I CAN guarantee you that physical incapacitation is WAy too slow! Anyone with a mere chest hit (or 3) by handgun bullets, if they stop in less than 4 seconds, it was a psychological quitting, which is often subconscious. But it was NOT a physical incapacitation in less than 4 seconds. that's impossible, from mere blood loss or loss of organ function.

No, it isn't. I carry a .40 S&W. Why? Bigger hole. Temporary cavity doesn't mean squat in the real world. The "shock" likewise doesn't mean squat in the real world. The only shock that matters is that which is induced by body fluid loss. That is the only "shock" that stops people.