$27 an hour!!!! And they wonder why they have a problem.

[Angel Heart]

Mr. Gettelfinger expects the union to be labeled part of Detroit’s problems, and to defend its $27-an-hour wages and top-of-the-line health care benefits and pensions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/economy/17uaw.html?ref=business

This is the problem with the US Auto industry. It's not their products. It's the cost.

 

[Andrew2382]

GM pays their employyes an average of 73 bucks an hour while foriegn companies are aroudn 42 bucks

 

[editec]

That $73 includes health care and benefits, of course.

So when those plants go down, then the American taxpayers will be paying for their health care.

Big improvement, eh?

 

[Shogun]

oh yea.. it's the cost to labor (the solid middle class) rather than stupid SUV mistakes for the last 8years.. sure... Hey, why don't we whittle down all employment so that all the fucking peons who don't won a mulitnational conglomerate can be happy making 2 dollars an hour. I mean, we can always blame Obama if the economy tanks since we are quick to disregard plummeting American standards of living as long as there is a semi-slave in china to make shit that our middle class might *GASP* require an AMERICAN living standard to produce...


clearly we can BUY MORE when we are making the same wages as some former beggar from fucking calcutta! Nothing says "solid middle class" quite like normaliziing wages with that of a fucking mexican barrio!

 

[Angel Heart]

Brake the union... Bring wages under control... Yeah people will bitch but it's that or no job at all. It's the only way. Or we will see Detroit owned by companies from other countries. You think they will just leave working factories empty? Not likely. Toyota, Honda, KIA... One of them will step in and buy up the cheep property. Open up with no union and lower costing cars.

I'm fine with bailing them out if they brake the union. If we give them money with the union still in place, they will be asking us for help again.

 

[DavidS]

That $73 includes health care and benefits, of course.

So when those plants go down, then the American taxpayers will be paying for their health care.

Big improvement, eh?

Obama's health insurance plan isn't going through until 2010, 2011.

 

[Gem]

So when those plants go down, then the American taxpayers will be paying for their health care.

Big improvement, eh?

So we bail them out....they continue doing what they have been doing...and in a number of years we're bailing them out again because, for one reason or another, Americans do not want to buy their products.

So do we refuse to bail them out now and let them do what most businesses have to do - restructure, merge, go out of business, etc. Which will undoubtedly cause pain and suffering to employees.

Or, do we bail them out...and let them continue to make subpar product at above par costs that no one really seems to want....and then do it again later...which will undoubtedly cause pain and suffering to the taxpayers?

And, of course, we can stipulate that our "bailout" comes with mandatory changes and restructuring...but we all see how well the oversight on the current bailout is going...I just don't buy it.

 

[Andrew2382]

oh yea.. it's the cost to labor (the solid middle class) rather than stupid SUV mistakes for the last 8years.. sure... Hey, why don't we whittle down all employment so that all the fucking peons who don't won a mulitnational conglomerate can be happy making 2 dollars an hour. I mean, we can always blame Obama if the economy tanks since we are quick to disregard plummeting American standards of living as long as there is a semi-slave in china to make shit that our middle class might *GASP* require an AMERICAN living standard to produce...


clearly we can BUY MORE when we are making the same wages as some former beggar from fucking calcutta! Nothing says "solid middle class" quite like normaliziing wages with that of a fucking mexican barrio!

So according to you GM paying almost double their employees comapreed to every other company who is amking a proft has NOTHING to do with the problems they are facing?

 

[Andrew2382]

I am against bail outs, but if th ebig 3 goes down you lose more then the employees of the big 3. You lose the tens of thousands of distributors that do business with them

 

[DavidS]

So we bail them out....they continue doing what they have been doing...and in a number of years we're bailing them out again because, for one reason or another, Americans do not want to buy their products.

Years? No, not years. Months. $25 billion is for all 3 auto companies. Even if the $25 were to go to GM alone, it won't help them. They're spending $7 billion a month and I doubt GM sales are going to spike this month. In fact, by mid December, we'll probably find out auto sales have plummeted so fast GM will have no choice but declare bankruptcy by year's end. There will be no GM bailout.

 

[Shogun]

So according to you GM paying almost double their employees comapreed to every other company who is amking a proft has NOTHING to do with the problems they are facing?

no. not at all. Especially when we consider how they failed to provide what the market needed in the years of inflated gas prices and, instead, produced SUVs while keeping ceo salaries in the stratosphere. It's precisely these kinds of middle class jobs that ALLOW our economy to function with stability rather than some "well shit, no one can buy anything so lets keep undermining wages by letting paupers from mexico make the shit no one can buy" excuse for free market capitalism.

ask yourself, who is the fucking market in the United States. Ask yourself, WHO can pay for shit when you people keep trying to normalize an American standard with that of the cheap labor from india, china and mexico. Auto workers didn't decide to build gas hungry SUVs. Let those who own the means of production, and who were the ones to actually fuck up, pay the price instead of undermining the economic base of the middle class for some trite fucking played out excuse to reduce the cost of labor.

 

[Andrew2382]

no. not at all. Especially when we consider how they failed to provide what the market needed in the years of inflated gas prices and, instead, produced SUVs while keeping ceo salaries in the stratosphere. It's precisely these kinds of middle class jobs that ALLOW our economy to function with stability rather than some "well shit, no one can buy anything so lets keep undermining wages by letting paupers from mexico make the shit no one can buy" excuse for free market capitalism.

ask yourself, who is the fucking market in the United States. Ask yourself, WHO can pay for shit when you people keep trying to normalize an American standard with that of the cheap labor from india, china and mexico. Auto workers didn't decide to build gas hungry SUVs. Let those who own the means of production, and who were the ones to actually fuck up, pay the price instead of undermining the economic base of the middle class for some trite fucking played out excuse to reduce the cost of labor.

TSC Newsletter: History of SUVs a tragedy of the commons


Annual profits from selling SUVs increased ninefold from 1990 to 2000. For each Expedition it sold, Ford cleared $12,000 in profit courtesy of the vehicle’s cheaper, older truck manufacturing technique. The Michigan Truck Plant, which was where Expeditions (in addition to trucks) were made, became the single most profitable factory in any industry anywhere in the world in the 90s. The factory’s annual production, which included other profitable trucks as well, was worth $11 billion, or $2.4 billion in after-tax profits in 1998. Such prosperity trickled down to assembly line workers, some of whom pocketed $100,000 a year as factories ran around the clock. Bradsher attributes much of the mid-90s economic boom in the Midwest not to dot com companies, but to the SUV boom and the immense profits for Ford


How quickly we forget that if it wasn't for the SUV these companies would have gone under a long time ago.

I agree with you that the big 3 didn't forsee th eproblems of the future and plan well for it.

But the other companies (toyota, honda etc) who pay their employees half are doing very well, and those people they pay ARE AMERICANS! They are getting by somehow and still are going to have a job. It's one thing to underpay, but they are clearly over paying. We aren't talking the same ball park, we are talking about almost double the fucking pay. It is absurd.

Also, like I satte dbefore, Another huge loss of revenue that GM lost on and to their own fault

When employees buy cars through their employee plans they are allowed (thanks to the union) to go around GMAC for financing to save a half a point. FUCK THAT. Just like BMW, if you ar getting employee pricing you should be forced to go through GMAC. You are still making out very well. I have my beamer through employee pricing through my brother who works there and I had to go through BMW financial.

 

[tigerbob]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/economy/17uaw.html?ref=business

This is the problem with the US Auto industry. It's not their products. It's the cost.

One other thing pisses me off in that article....

Mr. Gettelfinger, who started in the auto industry in 1964 on a Ford assembly line in Louisville, Ky., will need a thick skin at the hearings, said financier Wilbur Ross, who has interests in auto-parts firms dependent on Detroit.

“I think for a lot of the Republican senators, this gives them a chance to give the union payback for the election,” he said.

Whether republican or democrat, this isn't a political football. Rather than waste time kicking someone (who admittedly deserves to be kicked) just because he supported the other party, they should be focusing on getting at the issues and deciding what the best way forward is.

 

[Shogun]

But the other companies (toyota, honda etc) who pay their employees half are doing very well, and those people they pay ARE AMERICANS! They are getting by somehow and still are going to have a job. It's one thing to underpay, but they are clearly over paying. We aren't talking the same ball park, we are talking about almost double the fucking pay. It is absurd.


but WHO are they doing "well" for? It sure as hell isn't America. Not to mention that YOUR opinion of "well" means very little when the byproduct of jettisoned jobs and profit is a crippled middle class who, shocker, can't afford to support American business and has to find a cheaper FOREIGN alternative. doing "WELL" compared to a dirt floor pauper from a third world country is not doing well by any American standard and a few plants in the US from a FOREIGN company is hardly a tradeoff when free market capitalists are more willing to put the neck of American production in a noose than admit the flaws of their economic opinions despite the looming disaster ahead.

oh, and yes.. SUVs sure did save the day in 04 when people could afford to make the first 24 payments..

 

[Skeptik]

This whole question is a lot like a homeowner who discovers that a huge tree in the back yard is rotten inside and could fall. What to do?

Should he just ignore the tree, since all trees fall eventually? No, it's likely to fall on his house, or his neighbor's house.

Shore it up, pour concrete in the hole? No, since it is still going to fall eventually anyway.

Bring in the professional tree surgeons to take it down? That's expensive, and will mean the end of the tree, but it is the only safe way.

Now, how did this rotten tree get in the yard in the first place? The homeowner doesn't want to go through this again, so the question becomes, how can we keep this from happening again? That is the crux of the matter, not what simplistic explanation can we come up with and blame the problem on management, union, government, or labor. There is plenty of blame to go around, after all.

 

[sealybobo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/economy/17uaw.html?ref=business

This is the problem with the US Auto industry. It's not their products. It's the cost.

The economy was booming because people working for the Big 3 made good money. You will see the economy will not pick up the way it needs to if they continue to lower everyone's wages.

In fact, with all the GOP spending, inflation went way up. We all need a raise to keep up with inflation. That inflation was caused by the GOP.

How much do you make and what do you do? 1 in 10 Americans jobs rely on the Big 3.

Do you know why you are wrong and why you suck? Because I warned people like you that the GOP was fucking American manufacturers. I warned you that letting Honda and Toyota in when their counties won't let our cars in, was a really bad idea. But you didn't listen.

Now you want the Big 3 to fold and for Toyota & Honda to have all the power? Either you are a house slave or filthy rich. I doubt you are filthy rich.

Tariff any car being shipped into the US $10K. If Ford makes a car in Mexico, tax it. If Honda makes a car here, don't tax it.

And people up north can afford to pay a little more and should pay a little more, because having the Big 3 has increased our wages. We should only buy from the Big 3.

The dirty south can buy from Honda, and Walmart.

And the Big 3 have already started restructuring, letting people go, re-negotiating, etc.

To me it sounds like the GOP WANT the Big 3 to go belly up. They seem very anti American labor. So do you.

Anyways, tell me what you do, how much you make, etc. I want to know more about why you are against a middle class person making $30K an hour.

For years the exec's were paying themselves out of control. Of course the unions wanted too. If the exec's can show a profit, they deserve a raise.

Anyways, shame on you.

 

[Andrew2382]

You do realize the majority (if not all) of vehicles, (Honda, toyota, Nissan) don't ship the cars overseas.

They are built in United States factories.

 

[sealybobo]

You do realize the majority (if not all) of vehicles, (Honda, toyota, Nissan) don't ship the cars overseas.

They are built in United States factories.

If they are built in the US, they are ok.

But even still, the engineers and CEO's are all overseas. Or that's where the money goes.

American Auto Manufacturers are KEY to a strong successful middle class. Without Unions, you wouldn't make what you make today. What do you do for a living?

Does Japan let us ship cars made in America to Japan? Does China? Mexico?

Make free trade fair.

 

[Turboswede]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/economy/17uaw.html?ref=business

This is the problem with the US Auto industry. It's not their products. It's the cost.

No! its where they stuck all the money they made from selling SUVs, right into the housing bubble.

Traditionally Foreign manufacturers peg the wages they pay to those paid by the UAW, for example, Toyota pays about $25 per hour (with production bonuses) vs. $27 for UAW employees. Provided that the Cost of Living is higher in areas where the domestic auto industry has established production facilities that puts UAW and Foreign Make jobs at about wage parity.

Toyota backs off wage parity at new plants - Motor Trend The General Forum Forum

I think executive compensation it is far more of an issue than harping on the UAW. For Example, in 2003 Hiroshi Okuda the CEO of Toyota received compensation of $903,000.

Executive Pay: what the bosses make

For the same year the FoMoCo proxy states that William Clay Ford, Jr. received:

• $1,500,000 in salary
• $1,503,000 in Restricted Shares (not considered income for tax)
• $ 11,560,000 in Stock Options (not considered for income tax)

For a total compensatory payment of about $14.5 Million dollars or about 15 times what the CEO of Toyota made in the same year.

In fact, Mr. Okuda’s compensation was so low, according to SEC rules, if he were a Ford employee it wound not have required disclosure.

So, is it the UAW’s fault for getting 8% more for their workers, or the shareholder’s fault for agreeing to pay the CEO 1500% more than the Same position at Toyota?

 

[Turboswede]

If they are built in the US, they are ok.

But even still, the engineers and CEO's are all overseas. Or that's where the money goes.

American Auto Manufacturers are KEY to a strong successful middle class. Without Unions, you wouldn't make what you make today. What do you do for a living?

Does Japan let us ship cars made in America to Japan? Does China? Mexico?

Make free trade fair.

Because of NAFTA Mexico takes a bunch of our cars (about $9 Billion worth) and the Top selling car brand in the PRC is Buick (weird). Japan is tough because there are few bars to market entry and there are US car dealerships, but the US does not produce a whole lot of car’s the Japanese are interested in. Last time I checked Jeep was the top import brand sold in Japan.