Your solution to the ME crisis

[Mom]

If I had my way, member, Israel would have been dismantled 50 years ago and replaced by an international protectorate with thousands of international troops protecting the jewish and the arab community with equal rights for all.

If I had my way there would be no racist jewish state killing palestinians for 60 years, filling 3 generations of arabs with hate at America and those 3000 civilians would probably be alive today.

The cynicism of people like you, who, through your support for Israel, are indirectly responsible for those 3000 deaths, pointing the finger at me, is disgusting and depraved beyond belief.

If you want to see someone who's pretty sick, member, just take a good look in the mirror.

The only people responsible for 9/11 are the half-dozen people involved in the attack, and those that supported it.

There is no excuse which justifies any attack against any civilian target.

As I often remind Zionist posters here - you do not support the rights of one people by blaming everything on another people. The Palestinians are responsible for as much violence and ignorance as Israel is, and probably more. Both sides need to work towards peace because it is better for them to do so, rather than waiting for the other guy to do so first.

sai baba

according to Wikipedia, both Osama bin Laden and Mohammed Atta, the 9/11 leader were very heavily influenced towards terrorism by Israel's horrific atrocities in Lebanon.

Israel killed 20,000 totally innocent Lebanese in its 1982 invasion and tens of thousands more since

actions breed reactions

you are being foolish if you deny this

on the other hand it was Hitler and the tsar's persecution of jews that created modern Zionism and Israel in the first place

Israel is hitler's main modern legacy

without hitler there would be a large and hopefully thriving jewish community in Palestine but they would never have had the international clout or desperation needed to steal the whole bloody country of Palestine or whatever it would have been called; possibly Jordan or Syria

If I were you, I'd worry more about the UK being invaded by Pakistan and no one ever did anything about it!

And you don't know that the arabs wouldn't have tried to kill off the jews anyways, that shit started way before WWII. The arabs if they wanted to, could all join together and kick Israel's ass, but their sheiks are too busy getting fat and fucking white women to care.

 

[RoccoR]

The Jewish Agency accepted the resolution despite its dissatisfaction over such matters as Jewish emigration from Europe and the territorial limits set on the proposed Jewish State. The plan was not accepted by the Palestinian Arabs and Arab States on the ground that it violated the provisions of the United Nations Charter, which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.

What the Palestinians and the Arabs said was correct.

(COMMENT)

The Charter is not a literal document that fits all situations; but a generalized set of principles made by its members. When the members look at a specific situation, they are not trapped by the Charter; but as a body, can apply the principles as they see they are applicable. The "Question of Palestine" was, and is still, a specific situation which requires more than a canned solution.

UN Charter definition

“By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter."

(COMMENT)

The "external interference" clause does not apply to this set of circumstances; except as it relates to the surrounding Arab Nations interfering with the UN Mandate over Palestine.

The interference of the surrounding Arab States, the discontent and argumentative positions they took where one of the central causes for the following wars. It was they that convinced the Arab/Palestinian to abandon peace peace and to reject GA Res 181(II) in favor of conflict. And the outcome of that fatal decision was that the Arab/Palestinian lost even more options and land.

The British. when they defined the meaning of the mandate in their 1939 white paper, said that they could not impose a Jewish state in Palestine against the will of the people. This complies with international law.

(COMMENT)

The UNSCOP and the General Assembly, as well as the Mandatory, all agreed in the end, in testimony, that the 1939 White Paper did not express the correct intentions of the UN Mandate Committee; a mistake in time. They could not possibly be speaking of the principles outlined in The United Nation General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXV): (Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations), they had not come into being yet. UN GA Resolution 2625 wasn't written until 24 October 1970; two decades later. (Which, BTW, were not implemented by the UNSC either; because it wasn't required.)

When the UN Security Council contemplated the implementation of resolution 181 they said that they could not impose a Jewish state in Palestine against the will of the people. The Security Council did not implement resolution 181. This complies with international law.

(COMMENT)

I can find no record of this. As far as I know, the UNSC remained silent on the issue independence in 1948/1949.

Neither the mandate nor the UN created the state of Israel.

(COMMENT)

I didn't claim that. But they did set the conditions that lead to the declaration of independence, and the Jewish People exercising their right to self-determination.

Also from your link

On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel...

The Jewish Agency is a foreign organization created in Zurich, Switzerland in 1929 by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

(COMMENT)

The original intention was to create a Jewish National Home (previously discussed in depth), and thus, the Allied Powers and the Mandatory saw it sound to create an infrastructure to further that objective. Article 4 of the Mandate for Palestine put that process in motion.

The Jewish agency was the recognized public body for the purpose of advising Mandatory on such matters as economics, societal issues and immigration for the establishment of the Jewish national home. And the Zionist Organization, was recognized as such agency; through its hand - the Jewish Agency. The purpose of which was to "secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home."

It is disingenuous to suggest that the Jewish Agency was a foreign organization. While it is true that it was accredited by the 16th Zionist Congress held in Zurich (as required by Mandate), it was uniquely working in the Mandate Territory, and did so a quasi-government agency for two decades prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence and subsequent acceptance as a member of the UN. It still exists today as a quasi-government agency.

Israel was unilaterally proclaimed by foreigners inside Palestine against the will of the people. Those are the documented facts. You can call that "alternate history" if you like.

(COMMENT)

This is that "xenophobia" (unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers) creeping in and showing its symptoms. (Good Kentucky Bourbon usually helps with that; two shots and a small dose of salted peanuts; every 30 minutes. Recommend you have a pillow on hand. You'll know when the medication regiment is complete when the bartender steps on your tongue.)

(SERIOUSLY)

It really doesn't matter how you interpret the history when you search for a solution today. There are certain things that will not change the fact that rule the ground today. History is one of those facts that is nice to know, but in the end, without regard to what you may interpret as a violation of this or that, there is such a place as Israel. And whether you believe it has borders, boundaries, or little lines on a map, violate those markers and see if you don't face some unpleasant consequence. All your Arab/Palestinian friends know this.

There is no rewind or replay in history. Whatever events lead to the outcomes we see today, --- today is what we have to deal with. Even if everyone agrees to adopt your alternative history, the outcome is the same. There is an Israel and the Arab/Palestinian will have to deal with that reality. The Arab/Palestinian can play the victim all they want, but still, there is an Israel. They can cry - "it is unfair to them" - and still there is an Israel. They can have a war - multiple wars, attack from all sides at once, --- and still there is --- an Israel. The question becomes, at what point would the Arab/Palestinian like to become a productive member of the international community? For more than half a century, the region has built its reputation. And it is up to the Arab/Palestinian to face the facts as to what they have accomplished, and what they have become as a people. The can remain the foremost authority on counter-productivity, or they can start today and build a nation.

The end of the Occupation comes when the Arab/Palestinian demonstrates that they no longer pose a threat to the peace and security of the region; but, instead have decided to focus on prosperity as their principle goal. It is the solution to the equation, what is peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco,

Explain why international law does not apply here.

The Jewish agency was to assist the mandate and worked at the pleasure of the mandate. Apart from the mandate, it had no legitimacy in Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

The Mandate is a derivative of the body (LoN/UN) that created International Law. It becomes the hand of the creators of the law.

Rocco,

Explain why international law does not apply here.

The Jewish agency was to assist the mandate and worked at the pleasure of the mandate.

(COMMENT)

The concept of the "Jewish Agency" was not a creation of the 1929 WZO Convention (Zurich); but, that of the Hand to International Law, derivative from the 1922 Mandate for Palestine. By Mandate (the Hand of the creators of International Law), the Jewish Agency had to be recognized as such agency by the WZO. It was dictated by International Law.

Apart from the mandate, it had no legitimacy in Palestine.

(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of the Jewish Agency was whatever the Mandatory declared it to be; whether that be:

• advising and co-operating on economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home
• to assist and take part in the development of the country.
• shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.
• to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country, in so far as these matters are not directly undertaken by the Administration.

The Mandatory determined what was legitimate or not.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The Jewish Agency accepted the resolution despite its dissatisfaction over such matters as Jewish emigration from Europe and the territorial limits set on the proposed Jewish State. The plan was not accepted by the Palestinian Arabs and Arab States on the ground that it violated the provisions of the United Nations Charter, which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.

What the Palestinians and the Arabs said was correct.

(COMMENT)

The Charter is not a literal document that fits all situations; but a generalized set of principles made by its members. When the members look at a specific situation, they are not trapped by the Charter; but as a body, can apply the principles as they see they are applicable. The "Question of Palestine" was, and is still, a specific situation which requires more than a canned solution.


(COMMENT)

The "external interference" clause does not apply to this set of circumstances; except as it relates to the surrounding Arab Nations interfering with the UN Mandate over Palestine.

The interference of the surrounding Arab States, the discontent and argumentative positions they took where one of the central causes for the following wars. It was they that convinced the Arab/Palestinian to abandon peace peace and to reject GA Res 181(II) in favor of conflict. And the outcome of that fatal decision was that the Arab/Palestinian lost even more options and land.


(COMMENT)

The UNSCOP and the General Assembly, as well as the Mandatory, all agreed in the end, in testimony, that the 1939 White Paper did not express the correct intentions of the UN Mandate Committee; a mistake in time. They could not possibly be speaking of the principles outlined in The United Nation General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXV): (Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations), they had not come into being yet. UN GA Resolution 2625 wasn't written until 24 October 1970; two decades later. (Which, BTW, were not implemented by the UNSC either; because it wasn't required.)


(COMMENT)

I can find no record of this. As far as I know, the UNSC remained silent on the issue independence in 1948/1949.


(COMMENT)

I didn't claim that. But they did set the conditions that lead to the declaration of independence, and the Jewish People exercising their right to self-determination.

Also from your link



The Jewish Agency is a foreign organization created in Zurich, Switzerland in 1929 by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

(COMMENT)

The original intention was to create a Jewish National Home (previously discussed in depth), and thus, the Allied Powers and the Mandatory saw it sound to create an infrastructure to further that objective. Article 4 of the Mandate for Palestine put that process in motion.

The Jewish agency was the recognized public body for the purpose of advising Mandatory on such matters as economics, societal issues and immigration for the establishment of the Jewish national home. And the Zionist Organization, was recognized as such agency; through its hand - the Jewish Agency. The purpose of which was to "secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home."

It is disingenuous to suggest that the Jewish Agency was a foreign organization. While it is true that it was accredited by the 16th Zionist Congress held in Zurich (as required by Mandate), it was uniquely working in the Mandate Territory, and did so a quasi-government agency for two decades prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence and subsequent acceptance as a member of the UN. It still exists today as a quasi-government agency.

Israel was unilaterally proclaimed by foreigners inside Palestine against the will of the people. Those are the documented facts. You can call that "alternate history" if you like.

(COMMENT)

This is that "xenophobia" (unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers) creeping in and showing its symptoms. (Good Kentucky Bourbon usually helps with that; two shots and a small dose of salted peanuts; every 30 minutes. Recommend you have a pillow on hand. You'll know when the medication regiment is complete when the bartender steps on your tongue.)

(SERIOUSLY)

It really doesn't matter how you interpret the history when you search for a solution today. There are certain things that will not change the fact that rule the ground today. History is one of those facts that is nice to know, but in the end, without regard to what you may interpret as a violation of this or that, there is such a place as Israel. And whether you believe it has borders, boundaries, or little lines on a map, violate those markers and see if you don't face some unpleasant consequence. All your Arab/Palestinian friends know this.

There is no rewind or replay in history. Whatever events lead to the outcomes we see today, --- today is what we have to deal with. Even if everyone agrees to adopt your alternative history, the outcome is the same. There is an Israel and the Arab/Palestinian will have to deal with that reality. The Arab/Palestinian can play the victim all they want, but still, there is an Israel. They can cry - "it is unfair to them" - and still there is an Israel. They can have a war - multiple wars, attack from all sides at once, --- and still there is --- an Israel. The question becomes, at what point would the Arab/Palestinian like to become a productive member of the international community? For more than half a century, the region has built its reputation. And it is up to the Arab/Palestinian to face the facts as to what they have accomplished, and what they have become as a people. The can remain the foremost authority on counter-productivity, or they can start today and build a nation.

The end of the Occupation comes when the Arab/Palestinian demonstrates that they no longer pose a threat to the peace and security of the region; but, instead have decided to focus on prosperity as their principle goal. It is the solution to the equation, what is peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

Don't you realize, Rocco, that you're arguing with a brick wall?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Saigon
The only people responsible for 9/11 are the half-dozen people involved in the attack, and those that supported it.

There is no excuse which justifies any attack against any civilian target.

The West is responsible for enraging several generations of arabs by creating a jewish supremacist state in Palestine (they did not have a supremacist state in mind but this is what it became).

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean-debate-zone/263946-israel-puts-america-in-the-line-of-fire.html

 

[José]

Now I have to say something in order to be fair to America and Israel... The hatred towards America's client state is not the only cause of 9/11.

I refuse to use Israel as a scapegoat and put 100% of the blame on its shoulders.

50% of the blame falls squarely on muslim fundamentalism... The medieval, totalitarian ideology according to which the state has the right to impose religious laws on all its citizens disregarding their religious orientation and those who are only nominal muslims.

The blame for 9/11 can very well be divided in half.

50% belongs to America/West (support for Israel, that lead many arabs to hate America for what America does)

50% belongs to the Arab/Muslim world (12th century political ideology that leads many arab/muslims to hate America for what America is (and its influence in the muslim world): an open society not a religious dictatorship that disrespects the personal lives of its citizens).

 

[Connery]

Now I have to say something in order to be fair to America and Israel... The hatred towards America's client state is not the only cause of 9/11.

I refuse to use Israel as a scapegoat and put 100% of the blame on its shoulders.

50% of the blame falls squarely on muslim fundamentalism... The medieval, totalitarian ideology according to which the state has the right to impose religious laws on all its citizens disregarding their religious orientation and those who are only nominal muslims.

The blame for 9/11 can very well be divided in half.

50% belongs to America/West (support for Israel, that lead many arabs to hate America for what America does)

50% belongs to the Arab/Muslim world (12th century political ideology that leads many arab/muslims to hate America for what America is (and its influence in the muslim world): an open society not a religious dictatorship that disrespects the personal lives of its citizens).

I put 100% of the blame on those who hijacked the planes and used them a missiles. I was almost a victim in the first attack on the TWC, I never did anything to anyone to deserve that. I know people who died on the 9/11 attacks and I know they did not do anything to deserve that either.

How can you possibly ascribe blame to innocent parties?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Mandatory determined what was legitimate or not.

True, the Jewish Agency was a part of the mandate and the mandate left Palestine.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Connery
I put 100% of the blame on those who hijacked the planes and used them a missiles. I was almost a victim in the first attack on the TWC, I never did anything to anyone to deserve that. I know people who died on the 9/11 attacks and I know they did not do anything to deserve that either.

How can you possibly ascribe blame to innocent parties?

The blame of the individual actors is absolutely obvious, Connery. But what they did in America surely had causes, reasons, motivations. Nobody immolates himself in an act of mega-terrorism just because he had a slow night last night.

Read the link I provided above... Mohammed Atta's closest german friend tells in no uncertain terms that the plight of the palestinian people made him suffer on a personal level and was the main reason for his virulent anti-americanism.

The West (the nation-states not ordinary americans, germans, etc... as you seem to have understood it...) created the state of Israel so it shares part of the blame.

But again... All of them were also muslim fundamentalists, people who also hated America for "its freedoms" (if you forgive me the cliche).

 

[Connery]

Originally posted by Connery
I put 100% of the blame on those who hijacked the planes and used them a missiles. I was almost a victim in the first attack on the TWC, I never did anything to anyone to deserve that. I know people who died on the 9/11 attacks and I know they did not do anything to deserve that either.

How can you possibly ascribe blame to innocent parties?

The blame of the individual actors is absolutely obvious, Connery. But what they did in America surely had causes, reasons, motivations. Nobody immolates himself in an act of mega-terrorism just because he had a slow night last night.

Read the link I provided above... Mohammed Atta's closest german friend tells in no uncertain terms that the plight of the palestinian people made him suffer on a personal level and was the main reason for his virulent anti-americanism.

The West (the nation-states not ordinary americans, germans, etc... as you seem to have understood it...) created the state of Israel so it shares part of the blame.

But again... All of them were also muslim fundamentalists, people who also hated America for "its freedoms" (if you forgive me the cliche).

To me this is wrong headed thinking, there is no rationale or sane justification the terrorists can give. Should a country or group of individuals have a grievance against a country which they cannot work out then start a war with that country not the civilian population.

 

[Saigon]

Read the link I provided above... Mohammed Atta's closest german friend tells in no uncertain terms that the plight of the palestinian people made him suffer on a personal level and was the main reason for his virulent anti-americanism.

That is such total horseshit....it's like me saying that I "suffer on a personal level" for the fate of North American Indians and have thus decided to become "virulently" anti-American.

If he suffered so much, perhaps he should have gone to Palestine and helped build schools or worked in a medical clinic?

The only people who suffer personally in Palestine are Palestinians - not Germans.

 

[Mom]

Read the link I provided above... Mohammed Atta's closest german friend tells in no uncertain terms that the plight of the palestinian people made him suffer on a personal level and was the main reason for his virulent anti-americanism.

That is such total horseshit....it's like me saying that I "suffer on a personal level" for the fate of North American Indians and have thus decided to become "virulently" anti-American.

If he suffered so much, perhaps he should have gone to Palestine and helped build schools or worked in a medical clinic?

The only people who suffer personally in Palestine are Palestinians - not Germans.

Atta was a Saudi, we should have invaded SA and kicked some sheik ass and liberate the women and the oil.
Germany better watch its step or they'll get another beating as well.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Saigon
The only people who suffer personally in Palestine are Palestinians - not Germans.

Atta was the one harboring a deep resentment towards America because of its support for Israel, not his german friend. I should have made it clearer.

Anyway, I can see you didn't even bother to check out the link so I'm gonna reproduce it here.

 

[José]

Ralph Bodenstein​

Atta's friends in Germany described him as an intelligent man with religious beliefs who grew angry over the Western policy toward the Middle East, including the Oslo Accords and the Gulf War.

MSNBC, in its special "The Making of the Death Pilots," interviewed German friend Ralph Bodenstein who traveled, worked and talked a lot with Mohamed Atta. Bodenstein said, "He was most imbued [sic] actually about Israeli politics in the region and about U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region. And he was to a degree personally suffering from that."

Ralph Bodenstein Interview

 

[José]

I don't want to live in a world where Israel had anything to do with 9/11.

I wanna live in one of those parallel universes described by quantum physics where islamic fundamentalism is the only cause of terrorism and not a jewish supremacist state murdering the arab people of Palestine for 60 years.

If there is a german guy in Europe saying there is I'm gonna travel to Germany and shoot the guy.

What????

Are there other people who were also Atta's friends and are saying the same thing?

No problem... since I'm gonna be in Germany soon after killing Bodenstein, I'll look for them and shoot them too.

Then I'll finally be able to live in a Universe where there's nobody alive claiming that Israel had anything to do with 9/11!!

 

[José]

This is a testament to the fact that Message Boards are nothing but a huge waste of time. People will always believe whatever the hell they want to believe... even if they have to deny a reality that's in front of their eyes.

 

[Hossfly]

This is a testament to the fact that Message Boards are nothing but a huge waste of time. People will always believe whatever the hell they want to believe... even if they have to deny a reality that's in front of their eyes.

You're right about that,Jose I happen to believe in the tooth fairy and I ain't got no teeth.

 

[RoccoR]

Hossfly, José, et al,

Maybe, and maybe not.

This is a testament to the fact that Message Boards are nothing but a huge waste of time. People will always believe whatever the hell they want to believe... even if they have to deny a reality that's in front of their eyes.

You're right about that,Jose I happen to believe in the tooth fairy and I ain't got no teeth.

(OBSERVATION)

Currently Active Users
20 (7 members & 13 guests)​

(COMMENT)

I've made less than a 1000 postings, since I joined. Most of them expressing a minority opinion on the subject at hand. However, most of the members have contributed thousands of postings to the board, on a variety of subjects. We may never agree, but for the "guests" who scan the posting (usually twice the number of members) is affords them the opportunity to see a diversity in opinions. Alternative ideas, and the emotional quake any particular subject may invoke.

You may have more of an impact than you realize.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[member]

"This is a testament to the fact that Message Boards are nothing but a huge waste of time."

that does not compute.

sounds like a personal problem/opinion. maybe to others it isn't "a huge waste of time."

i guess what you just posted ... "a huge waste of time" for you.