World Dictator Trump, what if my country asks your troops to leave?

[Silver Cat]

What do you mean collector? I don't want to collect anything.

https://en.$$$$wikipedia.$$$$org/wiki/Collector_of_Russian_lands (delete $$$$)
-----------------------------

Collector of Russian land(s) (Russian: sobiratel russkoi zemli) is a historical concept and study of expansion policy of the Grand Duchy of Muscovy and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The term could be found in works of several historians such as Dmitry Ilovaysky ("History of Ruthenia: Muscovy-Lithuanian period or Collectors of Ruthenia (Rus)"),[1] Kazimierz Waliszewski ("First Romanovs",[2] "Ivan Grozny")[3] and many others. In the historical studies of Russia the concept justifies the liquidation of political (feudal) fragmentation in post Golden Horde period.[4]
------------------------------------

I am okay with the Ukrainian borders which were recognized in 1991 (except of Crimea).

But people of Donbass are not okay with it.
You want to return Donetsk and Lugansk into "Small Russia", don't you? Is it so different from Moscowits' goal to return Kiev, Odessa, Lvov and Warsaw into "Great Russia"?

'Ukraine' was a purely geographical name, which means 'near the edge'. It was much later it became used in political and national sense.

I don't consider this name too appropriate. Ruthenia would be more accurate.

"Ruthenia" is just a Latin prononsation of "Russia".

 

[ESay]

But people of Donbass are not okay with it.
You want to return Donetsk and Lugansk into "Small Russia", don't you? Is it so different from Moscowits' goal to return Kiev, Odessa, Lvov and Warsaw into "Great Russia"?

Donetsk and Lugansk are a part of Ukraine. The Ukrainians (okay, Malo-Russians) were a majority
there since the joining of the Wild Steppe to the Russian Empire. There was an all-Russian census in 1897 which shows the same.

I don't want any land of Veliko-Russians or Belorussians or someone else's.

"Ruthenia" is just a Latin prononsation of "Russia".

Since the 13 or 14 century the term Ruthenia was used for South-Western Rus, while the term Russia was used for North-Eastern Rus.

 

[Bleipriester]

Are you an idiot? Russia won´t disappear, it is the best option that they are your friends. Drink Rjaschenka and give it a thought.

Friends you say? Okay, but only after they give up a stupid idea of 'gathering the Russian lands' they have been embracing since Ivan III.

What is 'rjaschenka'? Ryazhanka maybe?

You´re one people, whether the political reality mirrors that or not. And yes, I mean the Russian-Ukrainian milk drink.

Yes, we have common roots and close languages and culture. But we are very different in political mentality. If you want to try to understand it, begin with the differences between so called South Western and North Eastern Rus.

So? What is your point?

We had differences of North (German black-white-red) and South (German black-red-gold). Yet, since 1948, we only have black-red-gold. Russia intends to join the EU sooner or later and Euro. Borders´ meaning will vanish to some extend. The intent of an union is not to rewarm old conflicts.

Russia intends to join the EU? Who told you that?
That is just a crazy idea. In any case, Ukraine should stay away from this crazy union, it is for sure.

Not now, but later. Putin also wants Euro.

 

[Silver Cat]

Donetsk and Lugansk are a part of Ukraine.

They were parts of Ukraine. Now, they are, de facto, controlled by the Great Russia.

The Ukrainians (okay, Malo-Russians) were a majority
there since the joining of the Wild Steppe to the Russian Empire. There was an all-Russian census in 1897 which shows the same.

In the same census majority of Kiev's population were Great Russians. Does it mean, that Kiev is the Great Russia's city?

I don't want any land of Veliko-Russians or Belorussians or someone else's.

May be, it is because you are a clever, moderate, realistic-thinking collector, and right now you want to return Donbass only.
But can you explain what is the difference between "Great Russians" and "Small Russians"? Why the USA should care, what group of Russians control few coal mines and rusted remains of Soviet industry?

"Ruthenia" is just a Latin prononsation of "Russia".

Since the 13 or 14 century the term Ruthenia was used for South-Western Rus, while the term Russia was used for North-Eastern Rus.

Really? Do you want to say, that Facebook group "Ruthenia Catholica" is about Roman Catholic mission in Ukraine?
----------------------
The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'. During the Middle Ages writers in English and other Western European languages applied the term to lands inhabited by Eastern Slavs.[3][4] Russia itself was called Great Ruthenia or White Ruthenia until the end of the 17th century.[5] "Rusia or Ruthenia" appears in the 1520 Latin treatise Mores, leges et ritus omnium gentium, per Ioannem Boëmum, Aubanum, Teutonicum ex multis clarissimis rerum scriptoribus collecti by Johann Boemus. In the chapter De Rusia sive Ruthenia, et recentibus Rusianorum moribus ("About Rus', or Ruthenia, and modern customs of the Rus'"), Boemus tells of a country extending from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian Sea and from the Don River to the northern ocean. It is a source of beeswax, its forests harbor many animals with valuable fur, and the capital city Moscow (Moscovia), named after the Moskva River (Moscum amnem), is 14 miles in circumference.[6][7] Danish diplomat Jacob Ulfeldt, who traveled to Russia in 1578 to meet with Tsar Ivan IV, titled his posthumously (1608) published memoir Hodoeporicon Ruthenicum[8] ("Voyage to Ruthenia").[9]

-----------------------------

 

[Silver Cat]

Not now, but later. Putin also wants Euro.

May be, may be not. But he clearly doesn't want EU bureaucracy.

 

[Bleipriester]

Not now, but later. Putin also wants Euro.

May be, may be not. But he clearly doesn't want EU bureaucracy.

For now it is over, anyway. A Union of puppets doesn´t deserve strength and power.

 

[ESay]

They were parts of Ukraine. Now, they are, de facto, controlled by the Great Russia.

De facto yes. But why should it automatically mean that they are not parts of Ukraine? When the Minsk agreements were signed, these parts were named as 'particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts'. I think it implies that they are Ukraine, doesn't it?

In the same census majority of Kiev's population were Great Russians. Does it mean, that Kiev is the Great Russia's city?

As well as in the other big cities. The main administrative divisions in the Russian Empire were gubernii. I think it is more appropriate to compare in this scale.

But can you explain what is the difference between "Great Russians" and "Small Russians"? Why the USA should care, what group of Russians control few coal mines and rusted remains of Soviet industry?

I think the main difference is in political mentality. The Ukrainians are less inclined to have a czar.

I personally think that authoritarian rule was the main cause of Russia dragging behind of West European states economically and technologically.
The authoritarian rule of a relatively small group of people was one of the main causes of the Soviet collapse.
And now these guys have stepped on the same rakes.

About the second part of your question.
I think it is more appropriate to counter your potential enemy near its border, rather than near yours. It is the same reason why the US support Japan, S Korea and Taiwan in the Far East, and the monarchies of the Persian Gulf in the Middle East.

May be, it is because you are a clever, moderate, realistic-thinking collector, and right now you want to return Donbass only.

There is nothing to gather more, really. Talks about Kuban is a quite rare case in Ukraine, and I think that almost no one takes them seriously. Nothing to say about other Russian lands.

Really? Do you want to say, that Facebook group "Ruthenia Catholica" is about Roman Catholic mission in Ukraine?
----------------------
The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'. During the Middle Ages writers in English and other Western European languages applied the term to lands inhabited by Eastern Slavs.[3][4] Russia itself was called Great Ruthenia or White Ruthenia until the end of the 17th century.[5] "Rusia or Ruthenia" appears in the 1520 Latin treatise Mores, leges et ritus omnium gentium, per Ioannem Boëmum, Aubanum, Teutonicum ex multis clarissimis rerum scriptoribus collecti by Johann Boemus. In the chapter De Rusia sive Ruthenia, et recentibus Rusianorum moribus ("About Rus', or Ruthenia, and modern customs of the Rus'"), Boemus tells of a country extending from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian Sea and from the Don River to the northern ocean. It is a source of beeswax, its forests harbor many animals with valuable fur, and the capital city Moscow (Moscovia), named after the Moskva River (Moscum amnem), is 14 miles in circumference.[6][7] Danish diplomat Jacob Ulfeldt, who traveled to Russia in 1578 to meet with Tsar Ivan IV, titled his posthumously (1608) published memoir Hodoeporicon Ruthenicum[8] ("Voyage to Ruthenia").[9]

Well, this passage supports your words.

I don't know whom this group represents. Catholics in Russia?

 

[Stratford57]

They were parts of Ukraine. Now, they are, de facto, controlled by the Great Russia.

De facto yes. But why should it automatically mean that they are not parts of Ukraine? When the Minsk agreements were signed, these parts were named as 'particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts'. I think it implies that they are Ukraine, doesn't it?

In the same census majority of Kiev's population were Great Russians. Does it mean, that Kiev is the Great Russia's city?

As well as in the other big cities. The main administrative divisions in the Russian Empire were gubernii. I think it is more appropriate to compare in this scale.

But can you explain what is the difference between "Great Russians" and "Small Russians"? Why the USA should care, what group of Russians control few coal mines and rusted remains of Soviet industry?

I think the main difference is in political mentality. The Ukrainians are less inclined to have a czar.

I personally think that authoritarian rule was the main cause of Russia dragging behind of West European states economically and technologically.
The authoritarian rule of a relatively small group of people was one of the main causes of the Soviet collapse.
And now these guys have stepped on the same rakes.

About the second part of your question.
I think it is more appropriate to counter your potential enemy near its border, rather than near yours. It is the same reason why the US support Japan, S Korea and Taiwan in the Far East, and the monarchies of the Persian Gulf in the Middle East.

May be, it is because you are a clever, moderate, realistic-thinking collector, and right now you want to return Donbass only.

There is nothing to gather more, really. Talks about Kuban is a quite rare case in Ukraine, and I think that almost no one takes them seriously. Nothing to say about other Russian lands.

Really? Do you want to say, that Facebook group "Ruthenia Catholica" is about Roman Catholic mission in Ukraine?
----------------------
The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'. During the Middle Ages writers in English and other Western European languages applied the term to lands inhabited by Eastern Slavs.[3][4] Russia itself was called Great Ruthenia or White Ruthenia until the end of the 17th century.[5] "Rusia or Ruthenia" appears in the 1520 Latin treatise Mores, leges et ritus omnium gentium, per Ioannem Boëmum, Aubanum, Teutonicum ex multis clarissimis rerum scriptoribus collecti by Johann Boemus. In the chapter De Rusia sive Ruthenia, et recentibus Rusianorum moribus ("About Rus', or Ruthenia, and modern customs of the Rus'"), Boemus tells of a country extending from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian Sea and from the Don River to the northern ocean. It is a source of beeswax, its forests harbor many animals with valuable fur, and the capital city Moscow (Moscovia), named after the Moskva River (Moscum amnem), is 14 miles in circumference.[6][7] Danish diplomat Jacob Ulfeldt, who traveled to Russia in 1578 to meet with Tsar Ivan IV, titled his posthumously (1608) published memoir Hodoeporicon Ruthenicum[8] ("Voyage to Ruthenia").[9]

Well, this passage supports your words.

I don't know whom this group represents. Catholics in Russia?

I wonder which rakes you are talking about? It's Ukraine who keeps stepping on the same rakes and shooting her own feet, Russia is just fine.

US News 2019 Rating:
United States #1 in International Influence Rankings
Russia#2 in International Influence Rankings
Ukraine #40 in International Influence Rankings
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-international-influence

World bank, “Doing business” rating 2019
Russia named 28 (comparing to 120 in 2012 and in spite of numerous sanctions) between Austria and Japan
Ukraine named 71 (behind Vietnam and in spite of billions of dollars coming from IMF)
https://www.worldbank.org/content/d...Reports/English/DB2019-report_web-version.pdf

Besides, Russia has been under the sanctions since 2014, Ukraine keeps begging for money from IMF.

 

[ESay]

They were parts of Ukraine. Now, they are, de facto, controlled by the Great Russia.

De facto yes. But why should it automatically mean that they are not parts of Ukraine? When the Minsk agreements were signed, these parts were named as 'particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts'. I think it implies that they are Ukraine, doesn't it?

In the same census majority of Kiev's population were Great Russians. Does it mean, that Kiev is the Great Russia's city?

As well as in the other big cities. The main administrative divisions in the Russian Empire were gubernii. I think it is more appropriate to compare in this scale.

But can you explain what is the difference between "Great Russians" and "Small Russians"? Why the USA should care, what group of Russians control few coal mines and rusted remains of Soviet industry?

I think the main difference is in political mentality. The Ukrainians are less inclined to have a czar.

I personally think that authoritarian rule was the main cause of Russia dragging behind of West European states economically and technologically.
The authoritarian rule of a relatively small group of people was one of the main causes of the Soviet collapse.
And now these guys have stepped on the same rakes.

About the second part of your question.
I think it is more appropriate to counter your potential enemy near its border, rather than near yours. It is the same reason why the US support Japan, S Korea and Taiwan in the Far East, and the monarchies of the Persian Gulf in the Middle East.

May be, it is because you are a clever, moderate, realistic-thinking collector, and right now you want to return Donbass only.

There is nothing to gather more, really. Talks about Kuban is a quite rare case in Ukraine, and I think that almost no one takes them seriously. Nothing to say about other Russian lands.

Really? Do you want to say, that Facebook group "Ruthenia Catholica" is about Roman Catholic mission in Ukraine?
----------------------
The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'. During the Middle Ages writers in English and other Western European languages applied the term to lands inhabited by Eastern Slavs.[3][4] Russia itself was called Great Ruthenia or White Ruthenia until the end of the 17th century.[5] "Rusia or Ruthenia" appears in the 1520 Latin treatise Mores, leges et ritus omnium gentium, per Ioannem Boëmum, Aubanum, Teutonicum ex multis clarissimis rerum scriptoribus collecti by Johann Boemus. In the chapter De Rusia sive Ruthenia, et recentibus Rusianorum moribus ("About Rus', or Ruthenia, and modern customs of the Rus'"), Boemus tells of a country extending from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian Sea and from the Don River to the northern ocean. It is a source of beeswax, its forests harbor many animals with valuable fur, and the capital city Moscow (Moscovia), named after the Moskva River (Moscum amnem), is 14 miles in circumference.[6][7] Danish diplomat Jacob Ulfeldt, who traveled to Russia in 1578 to meet with Tsar Ivan IV, titled his posthumously (1608) published memoir Hodoeporicon Ruthenicum[8] ("Voyage to Ruthenia").[9]

Well, this passage supports your words.

I don't know whom this group represents. Catholics in Russia?

I wonder which rakes you are talking about? It's Ukraine who keeps stepping on the same rakes and shooting her own feet, Russia is just fine.

US News 2019 Rating:
United States #1 in International Influence Rankings
Russia#2 in International Influence Rankings
Ukraine #40 in International Influence Rankings
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-international-influence

World bank, “Doing business” rating 2019
Russia named 28 (comparing to 120 in 2012 and in spite of numerous sanctions) between Austria and Japan
Ukraine named 71 (behind Vietnam and in spite of billions of dollars coming from IMF)
https://www.worldbank.org/content/d...Reports/English/DB2019-report_web-version.pdf

Besides, Russia has been under the sanctions since 2014, Ukraine keeps begging for money from IMF.

Don't even try to comprehend, baby. It is beyond your abilities.

 

[Stratford57]

Don't even try to comprehend, baby. It is beyond your abilities.

Oh, yes, forgot to add:

IMF ranks Ukraine as Europe's poorest country

Though the Ukrainian economy was the second largest in the Soviet Union, after the dissolution of the union, independent Ukraine made a major transition from a planned economy to a market economy which plunged a major section of the country into poverty.
The economy of Ukraine contracted severely, and people in the country struggled to live. As of 2018, the per capita income in Ukraine is $2,963, making it the poorest country in Europe.
The Poorest Countries In Europe

 

[Silver Cat]

De facto yes. But why should it automatically mean that they are not parts of Ukraine?

Because the term "Ukraine"/"Borderland" means "The Russian lands not under the Russian's Tzar's control". If those lands are under the Moscow's control - they are not Borderlands already.

When the Minsk agreements were signed, these parts were named as 'particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts'. I think it implies that they are Ukraine, doesn't it?

We both know, that Ukraine is not going (and never was) to keep the terms of the agreement. So, Minsk agreement is nothing but a short cheasefire.

In the same census majority of Kiev's population were Great Russians. Does it mean, that Kiev is the Great Russia's city?

As well as in the other big cities. The main administrative divisions in the Russian Empire were gubernii. I think it is more appropriate to compare in this scale.

But the Russians can think another way and retake Kiev, can't they?

I think the main difference is in political mentality. The Ukrainians are less inclined to have a czar.

Ok. So do you agree, that the difference between the Russians and the Ukrainian is not cultural (like between English- and Spanish-speaking Americans), not even subcultural (like between yuppies and rednecks), but just a political? 73% of the Ukrainians support Zelenskiy, and 86% of the Russians support Putin. It's a great difference, you know. But, may be, Putin is really better (at least more experienced) than Zelenskiy?
There is an opinion, that the difference between Russian "Goats" (political Moscowites) and "Swines" (political Ukrainians) is less, than between American "Donkeys" and "Elephants".

About the second part of your question.
I think it is more appropriate to counter your potential enemy near its border, rather than near yours. It is the same reason why the US support Japan, S Korea and Taiwan in the Far East, and the monarchies of the Persian Gulf in the Middle East.

Sometimes yes. But such a politic has its own disadvantages. Support of Japan caused Pearl-Harbour, support of the radical islamists caused 911, ISIS and increase of migration rate. What will cause our support of Ukrainian nationalists? Another "zrada" (treason)? All possibilities must be carefully calculated.

There is nothing to gather more, really. Talks about Kuban is a quite rare case in Ukraine, and I think that almost no one takes them seriously. Nothing to say about other Russian lands.

Where exactly do you live? Looks like, not in Kiev, and don't know news of culture, for example about the new Rock-Opera "Sagaidachniy: The Assault on Moscow".
https://$$$facebook.com$$$/136152356951145/photos/a.137355873497460/610766426156400/
(Delete $$$)

Really? Do you want to say, that Facebook group "Ruthenia Catholica" is about Roman Catholic mission in Ukraine?
----------------------
The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'. During the Middle Ages writers in English and other Western European languages applied the term to lands inhabited by Eastern Slavs.[3][4] Russia itself was called Great Ruthenia or White Ruthenia until the end of the 17th century.[5] "Rusia or Ruthenia" appears in the 1520 Latin treatise Mores, leges et ritus omnium gentium, per Ioannem Boëmum, Aubanum, Teutonicum ex multis clarissimis rerum scriptoribus collecti by Johann Boemus. In the chapter De Rusia sive Ruthenia, et recentibus Rusianorum moribus ("About Rus', or Ruthenia, and modern customs of the Rus'"), Boemus tells of a country extending from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian Sea and from the Don River to the northern ocean. It is a source of beeswax, its forests harbor many animals with valuable fur, and the capital city Moscow (Moscovia), named after the Moskva River (Moscum amnem), is 14 miles in circumference.[6][7] Danish diplomat Jacob Ulfeldt, who traveled to Russia in 1578 to meet with Tsar Ivan IV, titled his posthumously (1608) published memoir Hodoeporicon Ruthenicum[8] ("Voyage to Ruthenia").[9]

Well, this passage supports your words.

I don't know whom this group represents. Catholics in Russia?

Yes.

 

[depotoo]

Trump turning the US presence into an occupation and killing of Soleimani will possibly cost many American citizens´ lives as the militias declared war on US troops in Iraq and Iran claims 80 casualties in missile strikes on two US presences.

The militants are nothing but soft meat. If they want to play hard, we can play really hard.

But they are not on your radar. That´s the difference.

It is very dangerouse misconception. Everyone is on our radars.

Defeat Taliban then brag about destroying Iraqi militias.

Iraqi militias run by Iranians...

 

[ESay]

Because the term "Ukraine"/"Borderland" means "The Russian lands not under the Russian's Tzar's control". If those lands are under the Moscow's control - they are not Borderlands already.

I want to remind you that there is a state which is called Ukraine and which has its borders, officially established as if 1991.

If Moscows czar seized control of some lands it doesn't mean that this state will automatically recognize it.

We both know, that Ukraine is not going (and never was) to keep the terms of the agreement. So, Minsk agreement is nothing but a short cheasefire.

There are two main views about Donbas - to freeze this conflict, establish an official border on the frontline and forget about Donbas; and implementation of the Minsk agreements, but not on Russia's terms.

The Poroshenko administration followed the first view.

If the agreements are going to be implemented in full, it is a good question who isn't going to implement them on practice.

I will address the other parts of you post a little bit later, ok?

 

[ESay]

Ok. So do you agree, that the difference between the Russians and the Ukrainian is not cultural (like between English- and Spanish-speaking Americans), not even subcultural (like between yuppies and rednecks), but just a political?

It depends on what one considers a cultural difference to be. Some different language can be considered a cultural difference. In the past there were differences in clothing, house building.

But yes, I think the main difference is a political mentality.

73% of the Ukrainians support Zelenskiy, and 86% of the Russians support Putin. It's a great difference, you know. But, may be, Putin is really better (at least more experienced) than Zelenskiy?

Do you really not understand what I tried to say?

For example, I can't imagine whatsoever the crazy idea with Gossovet to be implemented in Ukraine.

There is an opinion, that the difference between Russian "Goats" (political Moscowites) and "Swines" (political Ukrainians) is less, than between American "Donkeys" and "Elephants".

What do you mean? What scale can be used to compare these 'animals'?

I am a 'swine' according to your classification. And I support: small government and small taxes; private property, including on the land and means of production; strong parliament; wide financial rights of local communities; freedom of speech and press; freedom of consciousness, private health insurance and pension funds (though, I can agree they can operate alongside with state owned ones).

What other 'animal' are my views the closest to?

Where exactly do you live? Looks like, not in Kiev, and don't know news of culture, for example about the new Rock-Opera "Sagaidachniy: The Assault on Moscow".
https://$$$facebook.com$$$/136152356951145/photos/a.137355873497460/610766426156400/
(Delete $$$)

Chernigov.

I hope you don't think that a rock opera about things that happened 500 years ago can say much about the views of contemporary Ukrainians (or significant part, at least).

 

[Silver Cat]

But yes, I think the main difference is a political mentality.

Ok. Answer accepted.

Do you really not understand what I tried to say?

For example, I can't imagine whatsoever the crazy idea with Gossovet to be implemented in Ukraine.

Really? The absolutely same Ukrainian agency, NSDC is already working and have even more authority than their Great Russian twin.

National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine - Wikipedia

What do you mean? What scale can be used to compare these 'animals'?

Here is a comparission chart for the American pair:
Democrat vs Republican - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

I am a 'swine' according to your classification. And I support: small government and small taxes; private property, including on the land and means of production; strong parliament; wide financial rights of local communities; freedom of speech and press; freedom of consciousness, private health insurance and pension funds (though, I can agree they can operate alongside with state owned ones).

Looks like your position is almost equal to the position of "goats". May be, with the little difference, that they want more regions in their Federation, and 'swines' want to keep their Small Russia as the unitary state.

Chernigov.

The old and famouse Russian city, according one of the versions, place of birth of the greatest Russian warrior - Iliya Mooromets.

Isn't it?

I hope you don't think that a rock opera about things that happened 500 years ago can say much about the views of contemporary Ukrainians (or significant part, at least).

Don't you think that the Russians movies and cartoons about Prince Vladimir, 'The Collector of the Russian Lands' or fighting against 'Polish occupants' are not politically motivated?


Or, may be, the speech of Taras Bulba was apolitical?

There are no stories about past, all stories what people talk to each other are actually about present and future.

 

[Silver Cat]

I want to remind you that there is a state which is called Ukraine and which has its borders, officially established as if 1991.

So what? There were many states like Syria, Iraq, Afganistan, Lybia, Yugoslavia and even USSR. Their leaders made fatal mistakes, and such states finished their existence (at least as independent states).

If Moscows czar seized control of some lands it doesn't mean that this state will automatically recognize it.

Ukraine can accept reality, or not to accept. But 'de facto' DPR and LPR are not Ukraine anymore.

There are two main views about Donbas - to freeze this conflict, establish an official border on the frontline and forget about Donbas; and implementation of the Minsk agreements, but not on Russia's terms.

The Poroshenko administration followed the first view.

If the agreements are going to be implemented in full, it is a good question who isn't going to implement them on practice.

Ok. It's your choice - to give it up and forget, or continue this conflict until Russia will choose a proper moment for the full-scale agression.

 

[ESay]

Really? The absolutely same Ukrainian agency, NSDC is already working and have even more authority than their Great Russian twin.

National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine - Wikipedia

Yes, really. NSDC is an advisory organ under the guise of the president. This entity doesn't have authority per se. The decisions of the Council become valid by decrees of the president.

I have to admit that it isn't known now what Russian Gossovet will look like. There are only speculations. There are opinions that this Gossovet will be something like the Soviet Politburo.

If it will be true, I can't even imagine how it possible to compare NSDC with it.

Here is a comparission chart for the American pair:
Democrat vs Republican - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

My views are closer to the Republicans.

Looks like your position is almost equal to the position of "goats". May be, with the little difference, that they want more regions in their Federation, and 'swines' want to keep their Small Russia as the unitary state.

Almost equal? Are you serious?

If you consider them almost equal, then I don't know what to add. In this case I don't see any reason for further discussion. Not because it irritates me or something like, no. But because I won't be able to explain my position.

The old and famouse Russian city, according one of the versions, place of birth of the greatest Russian warrior - Iliya Mooromets.

I don't particularly like when someone uses the term Russian for those times. It seems that in English it will be the same. In Ukrainian, the word Russian (in contemporary means) spells "rosijs'kyi". If someone wants to say about the Old Rus' times, then he says "rus'kyi".

There are no stories about past, all stories what people talk to each other are actually about present and future.

I already gave my opinion about the views of Ukrainians on this matter.

 

[ESay]

So what? There were many states like Syria, Iraq, Afganistan, Lybia, Yugoslavia and even USSR. Their leaders made fatal mistakes, and such states finished their existence (at least as independent states).

So? You think that trying to get back Donbas is a fatal mistake?

Ukraine can accept reality, or not to accept. But 'de facto' DPR and LPR are not Ukraine anymore.

De facto yes.

Ok. It's your choice - to give it up and forget, or continue this conflict until Russia will choose a proper moment for the full-scale agression.

To give it up and forget is also an option.

I think that Ukraine should prepare itself for possible full-scale agression in any case.

 

[Stratford57]

So what? There were many states like Syria, Iraq, Afganistan, Lybia, Yugoslavia and even USSR. Their leaders made fatal mistakes, and such states finished their existence (at least as independent states).

So? You think that trying to get back Donbas is a fatal mistake?

Ukraine can accept reality, or not to accept. But 'de facto' DPR and LPR are not Ukraine anymore.

De facto yes.

Ok. It's your choice - to give it up and forget, or continue this conflict until Russia will choose a proper moment for the full-scale agression.

To give it up and forget is also an option.

I think that Ukraine should prepare itself for possible full-scale agression in any case.

You can keep supporting any freedoms you want but outside of Ukraine. Because in Ukraine there are only freedoms for Nazis, crooks and their Deep State puppeteers.

I doubt Donbass will ever be back to Ukraine, they have separated for a reason. Sure, they will keep negotiating on Minsk agreements, but just to show the world: they have been trying and for not to be blamed for violating them. After Ukraine fails in fulfilling Minsk agreements DNR and LNR will be free de facto and de jure.

 

[Silver Cat]

Really? The absolutely same Ukrainian agency, NSDC is already working and have even more authority than their Great Russian twin.

National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine - Wikipedia

Yes, really. NSDC is an advisory organ under the guise of the president. This entity doesn't have authority per se. The decisions of the Council become valid by decrees of the president.

I have to admit that it isn't known now what Russian Gossovet will look like. There are only speculations. There are opinions that this Gossovet will be something like the Soviet Politburo.

Why don't you want just read the Russian article in Wikipedia? If you are really Ukrainian, living in Ukraine - you know Russian language, don't you?

If it will be true, I can't even imagine how it possible to compare NSDC with it.

It can not be true, because Politburo was a political agency, part of the Party. Putin pretend to be a leader of all Russians, and to be over all the parties.

Here is a comparission chart for the American pair:
Democrat vs Republican - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

My views are closer to the Republicans.

It was not a point. There are twelve main differences between Democrats and Respublicans. How many differences are between the "Swines" and the "Goats"?

And yes, you have the deep likeness with the Democrats. As Ukrainians are Russians, who believe that they are not Russians, so Democrats are Americans who think (and act as if) they are not Americans.

Looks like your position is almost equal to the position of "goats". May be, with the little difference, that they want more regions in their Federation, and 'swines' want to keep their Small Russia as the unitary state.

Almost equal? Are you serious?

If you consider them almost equal, then I don't know what to add. In this case I don't see any reason for further discussion. Not because it irritates me or something like, no. But because I won't be able to explain my position.

You can easily do it. Just make a chart of differences for them. I'm sure it will not be very long.

The old and famouse Russian city, according one of the versions, place of birth of the greatest Russian warrior - Iliya Mooromets.

I don't particularly like when someone uses the term Russian for those times. It seems that in English it will be the same. In Ukrainian, the word Russian (in contemporary means) spells "rosijs'kyi". If someone wants to say about the Old Rus' times, then he says "rus'kyi".

"The difference, that don't cause a difference is not a difference".
Technically, there was a diphthong "ou" in Old Russian. Sometimes, (for example by Greek-speakers) it was written as "o", sometimes (by Arabic or Latin-speakers) as "u". And changing "iy" to "yi" is just a form of the modern South-Russian accent. And yes, pay attention, that you wrote the name of your city in the Russian form "Chernigov", not in the Ukrainian one - "Chernigiv".
Are you sure, that you are true Ukrainian Nazi, not an "armchair Pro-Russian separatist"?