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[Foxfyre]

Ah but there's the rub FOX.

Your solutions would work but the current crop in office will not allow those types of laws to pass......The people that will make it so are the very people who would be hurt by doing so...therefore they wont do it. so what do we do? how do we get it done?

Show me a better, more feasible way and I'm right here willing to jump on board.

Well there is some truth in that. But that's where the Tea Partiers come in.

If they can inspire and infuse enough new faces into the system - faces with the vision, inspiration, reform minded, and integrity of that visionary freshman class of 1994 - they will have enough votes to get it done. We can't reverse and correct everything immediately--things like Medicare, medicade, social security etc. will have to be gradually and carefully reversed just as they have accrued to avoid untold suffering imposed on those the system has made dependent--but they can start that process and put laws into effect to prevent any further such bad policy.

We don't have to replace everybody. We just have to put in enough to have a solid conservative majority.

That visionary 1994 freshman class of Republicans and about 30 to 40 or conservative democrats transformed the government, put us on a much more responsible fiscal track, balanced a budget, and made Bill Clinton look good despite all his early stumbles and all the scandals surrounding him. I don't think Obama is anywhere near as smart as Clinton and wouldn't be able to take advantage of such fortune, or else we could do the same for him.

It was only when that group voluntarily term limited themselves out, that the old guard regained a majority and government reverted to business as usual with deficit spending and ever massive expansion of government.

 

[Avatar4321]

You think making corporate lobbying illegal will make a bit of difference when your court just said that corporations are people who can put as much money as they want into campaigns?

The idea that corrupt people will obey the law is ridiculous. That's why what's really important is not electing corrupt people.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bottom line:

If you don't change the system, you can throw every single member of Congress out and accomplish nothing. There are double the number of scoundrels standing in the wings, salivating, just waiting for their chance for a big piece of the pie that is enriching the existing members. They don't have to be there long to set themselves up for life.

We have to make it much more difficult, and expensive, for them them to do that. And that requires changing the system. Just changing the people won't do it.

 

[Avatar4321]

Bottom line:

If you don't change the system, you can throw every single member of Congress out and accomplish nothing. There are double the number of scoundrels standing in the wings, salivating, just waiting for their chance for a big piece of the pie that is enriching the existing members. They don't have to be there long to set themselves up for life.

We have to make it much more difficult, and expensive, for them them to do that. And that requires changing the system. Just changing the people won't do it.

There isnt anything wrong with the system. It's the people that are the problem. We need a different type of people. Unfortunately, I think as long as society is corrupt, we will be electing corrupt people to represent us.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

What's to say that the new guys won't be just as corrupt or more so than the old ones?

Oh not if they're Libertarians...those guys can't never be corrupted.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

You miss the point. You can replace democrats with new democrats for all we care just get rid of EVERYONE who is in there now.

And what will stop those same lobbyists from corrupting them the same way. Kicking them all out is not the solution. And the problem is not with Congress. The problem is us. We want lobbyists lobbying our politicians. We just don't want the lobbyists that we disagree with lobbying out politicians. We are conflicted.

Lobbyists dont corrupt people.

Greed does and it is inevitable for these people in power...hence the reason I agree with the general premise of kicking them all out every term or two.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Bottom line:

If you don't change the system, you can throw every single member of Congress out and accomplish nothing. There are double the number of scoundrels standing in the wings, salivating, just waiting for their chance for a big piece of the pie that is enriching the existing members. They don't have to be there long to set themselves up for life.

We have to make it much more difficult, and expensive, for them them to do that. And that requires changing the system. Just changing the people won't do it.

There isnt anything wrong with the system. It's the people that are the problem. We need a different type of people. Unfortunately, I think as long as society is corrupt, we will be electing corrupt people to represent us.

I think both of you are making valid points. I think we need to change the system and the people.

"Politicians are like diapers; they need changing often and for the same reason." Mark Twain

 

[Big Fitz]

I wish I could get behind this, but about 5-10% of congressmen are still decent, and you can't trust that the goober nominated against the incumbent is worth a damn.

That said, we shouldn't vote for a single congress critter who's been in office more than 12 years.

 

[saveliberty]

I would be more inclined to suggest a $25 per candidate limit. Then the more creative and concise person might win.

 

[HUGGY]

You miss the point. You can replace democrats with new democrats for all we care just get rid of EVERYONE who is in there now.

And what will stop those same lobbyists from corrupting them the same way. Kicking them all out is not the solution. And the problem is not with Congress. The problem is us. We want lobbyists lobbying our politicians. We just don't want the lobbyists that we disagree with lobbying out politicians. We are conflicted.

Lobbyists dont corrupt people.

Wow! That might be be your most ignorant statement ever on this MB. Or...your most disengenuous.

 

[Avatar4321]

And what will stop those same lobbyists from corrupting them the same way. Kicking them all out is not the solution. And the problem is not with Congress. The problem is us. We want lobbyists lobbying our politicians. We just don't want the lobbyists that we disagree with lobbying out politicians. We are conflicted.

Lobbyists dont corrupt people.

Wow! That might be be your most ignorant statement ever on this MB. Or...your most disengenuous.

They don't. The politicians are corrupt to begin with or the lobbyist wouldnt be able to do his job. It's not power and lobbyiest that corrupt politicians. It's corrupt politicians who corrupt everything else.

The idea that it's the lobbyist's fault is just an excuse by the politician to justify his behavior. He cant do anything wrong, it's those other guys or the system. That's the problem. But it's not. Its the politicians. And to some extent, the people for letting them get away with it.

That's what is so ridiculous about so called "reform" of the political system. You have a bunch of politicians saying "hey, we are so corrupt that the system needs to change. So let me fix it" and the people saying "Oh, well they may be corrupt, but they are honest about it so let the corrupt people fix the problem" without ever asking: "What is it about these reforms that actually benefit the people?"

You trust the corrupt people to fix the problems they created and when they supposedly do this you think its all well and good and dont realize that they just screwed you out of more power and made their job more secure.

What do you think McCain Fiengold was about? It wasnt about getting money out of politics. It was about protecting incumbants by making it more difficult for their opposition to raise money and by criminalizing anyone from critisizing an incumbant right before an election. So called Campaign Finance Reform was nothing but an a bipartisan attempt by the politicians to keep themselves in power.

Which is why I say bipartisanship is when politicians from both parties get together in an attempt to screw over the people.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I wish I could get behind this, but about 5-10% of congressmen are still decent, and you can't trust that the goober nominated against the incumbent is worth a damn.

That said, we shouldn't vote for a single congress critter who's been in office more than 12 years.

You dont have to go all or nothing man...no one is in the booth with you over your shoulder .

I just am trying to give people an outlet for their anger at the government....a non-violent, legal, and effective one .

If you have a great politician (oxymoron) then vote them back into office. I personally think that politicians shouldn't hold offices for more than 2 terms(even the rare good ones)so this idea of kicking them out sits well with me.

 

[HUGGY]

Lobbyists dont corrupt people.

Wow! That might be be your most ignorant statement ever on this MB. Or...your most disengenuous.

They don't. The politicians are corrupt to begin with or the lobbyist wouldnt be able to do his job. It's not power and lobbyiest that corrupt politicians. It's corrupt politicians who corrupt everything else.

The idea that it's the lobbyist's fault is just an excuse by the politician to justify his behavior. He cant do anything wrong, it's those other guys or the system. That's the problem. But it's not. Its the politicians. And to some extent, the people for letting them get away with it.

That's what is so ridiculous about so called "reform" of the political system. You have a bunch of politicians saying "hey, we are so corrupt that the system needs to change. So let me fix it" and the people saying "Oh, well they may be corrupt, but they are honest about it so let the corrupt people fix the problem" without ever asking: "What is it about these reforms that actually benefit the people?"

You trust the corrupt people to fix the problems they created and when they supposedly do this you think its all well and good and dont realize that they just screwed you out of more power and made their job more secure.

What do you think McCain Fiengold was about? It wasnt about getting money out of politics. It was about protecting incumbants by making it more difficult for their opposition to raise money and by criminalizing anyone from critisizing an incumbant right before an election. So called Campaign Finance Reform was nothing but an a bipartisan attempt by the politicians to keep themselves in power.

Which is why I say bipartisanship is when politicians from both parties get together in an attempt to screw over the people.

The politicians are corrupt to begin with

I don't believe that. I believe that most politicians ..except for the neo cons and christian fundimentalists, go into politics with good intentions. Maybe you being a partisan hack cannot relate to wanting to do good. I can accept that in you. You are what you are.

 

[Avatar4321]

The politicians are corrupt to begin with

I don't believe that. I believe that most politicians ..except for the neo cons and christian fundimentalists, go into politics with good intentions. Maybe you being a partisan hack cannot relate to wanting to do good. I can accept that in you. You are what you are.

honest people dont become corrupt. Power doesnt corrupt people. People corrupt power. If people become corrupt, by definition, they werent honest to begin with.

You act like you cant have good intentions while being corrupt. In fact, it's the corrupt people with "good intentions" that are some of the biggest problems.

Id like to see people with less good intentions and more good accomplishments. Id like to see honest people in office. People who no matter how much money they are offered, wont sell their soul. How about that for a change?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The politicians are corrupt to begin with

I don't believe that. I believe that most politicians ..except for the neo cons and christian fundimentalists, go into politics with good intentions. Maybe you being a partisan hack cannot relate to wanting to do good. I can accept that in you. You are what you are.

honest people dont become corrupt. Power doesnt corrupt people. People corrupt power. If people become corrupt, by definition, they werent honest to begin with.

You act like you cant have good intentions while being corrupt. In fact, it's the corrupt people with "good intentions" that are some of the biggest problems.

Id like to see people with less good intentions and more good accomplishments. Id like to see honest people in office. People who no matter how much money they are offered, wont sell their soul. How about that for a change?

I am really enjoying avatar's posts in this thread. A LOT.

No offence meant to you huggy at all...i just really like avatar's points.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bottom line:

If you don't change the system, you can throw every single member of Congress out and accomplish nothing. There are double the number of scoundrels standing in the wings, salivating, just waiting for their chance for a big piece of the pie that is enriching the existing members. They don't have to be there long to set themselves up for life.

We have to make it much more difficult, and expensive, for them them to do that. And that requires changing the system. Just changing the people won't do it.

There isnt anything wrong with the system. It's the people that are the problem. We need a different type of people. Unfortunately, I think as long as society is corrupt, we will be electing corrupt people to represent us.

I disagree. The system is everything that is wrong and it is the flawed system that attracts the kinds of people we are now getting in government. So long as the system allows politicians and bureaucrats to increase their power, prestige, and personal fortunes by using the people's money to buy votes and bribe corporations, unions, and special interest activist groups, we will only become more and more corrupt and will attract more of the same. The system is also corrupting in those receiving the benevolence and bribes. They will continue to vote in people who will keep it coming to them.

Take away their ability to use the people's money to increase their power, prestige and personal wealth, however--put the original system back into place where the government works for everybody, rich and poor, equally and without prejudice, and the people will have incentive to vote in people who want good, competent government. And it will be mostly those who genuinely want to be public servants who will run for office.

 

[HUGGY]

The politicians are corrupt to begin with

I don't believe that. I believe that most politicians ..except for the neo cons and christian fundimentalists, go into politics with good intentions. Maybe you being a partisan hack cannot relate to wanting to do good. I can accept that in you. You are what you are.

honest people dont become corrupt. Power doesnt corrupt people. People corrupt power. If people become corrupt, by definition, they werent honest to begin with.

You act like you cant have good intentions while being corrupt. In fact, it's the corrupt people with "good intentions" that are some of the biggest problems.

Id like to see people with less good intentions and more good accomplishments. Id like to see honest people in office. People who no matter how much money they are offered, wont sell their soul. How about that for a change?

I am really enjoying avatar's posts in this thread. A LOT.

No offence meant to you huggy at all...i just really like avatar's points.

None taken. His statement that lobbiests don't corrupt was over the top and I felt I had to chime in at that point. We were warned back in the early 50's by Eisenhower about the power and influence of the military and industial governmental complex AKA "fascists". I respect "Avatar" if that is what his real name is for much of what he offers.

My hope is that some of these good people will eventually see for themselves what destruction and obstruction of our system is directly atributible to the influence of special interests.. especially corporate.. specifically multinational. If we all had the same access..the same influence ...it would be different... but we do not.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I like seeing that many of us across the political spectrum agree on some of the basics of what the problems are.

Thanks for the extra 411 right there huggy.
'

 

[Foxfyre]

The politicians are corrupt to begin with

I don't believe that. I believe that most politicians ..except for the neo cons and christian fundimentalists, go into politics with good intentions. Maybe you being a partisan hack cannot relate to wanting to do good. I can accept that in you. You are what you are.

honest people dont become corrupt. Power doesnt corrupt people. People corrupt power. If people become corrupt, by definition, they werent honest to begin with.

You act like you cant have good intentions while being corrupt. In fact, it's the corrupt people with "good intentions" that are some of the biggest problems.

Id like to see people with less good intentions and more good accomplishments. Id like to see honest people in office. People who no matter how much money they are offered, wont sell their soul. How about that for a change?

I wish I could agree with you, Avatar, but I've seen it happen too often. With the rare exception of the individual who sticks to his convictions through thick and thin, most of us are imperfect with feet of clay. When in Rome, it is really hard to resist doing what the Romans do. If all your colleagues are attaching earmarks to bills to snag some goodies to send home, it is difficult to say you won't try to get at least some of that pie for your own constituency. When almost everybody else is voting to send hundreds of millions or billions to help people who are hurting, it's tough to be the hard hearted villain who says I'm not going to vote for that even when you know most of the money will be wasted. And, if you refuse to play ball with the leadership, it is tough to resign yourself to forever be stuck on unimportant obscure sub committees and never be allowed to get involved in something significant or important.

And each time you compromise your once noble starry-eyed convictions, it becomes easier to do it again. Eventually, it becomes easy. There is sound psychology behind the old saw that 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.'

So we would be doing our finest and best a great service by not only praising them for fiscal responsibility, but putting it into law that requires them to be so.

 

[drsmith1072]

The Kick Them All Out Project - Take The "Kick Them All Out" Pledge!

I hope all of you on this forum join us. Democrat, Republican, independent, and all others please join us and take back our country from the fat cats and crooked politicians. We currently have 2,100 confirmed signers.

The problem is that this argument has been made by the right every time they are in the minority, has been made again since they have recently been voted into the minority and they always vote in the same republicans hacks they claim that they are in favor of voting out.

IMO it's nothing more but a dishonest attempt to suppress voter turnout by claiming that they are ALL corrupt so only the fanatics show up to vote in the same losers over and over again.