Will White Privilege End Affirmative Action?

[JoeB131]

Also remember, my suggested approach would still give advantage to poorer blacks, who would compete within their own cohort.

Separate but equal? Where have I heard that one before?

And you say that you suppose poor white teens have a better support system, but that’s not true. Poor teens are in poor families for the same reason blacks teens are - a single, uneducated mother working night shifts at the diner (or whatever), and without the capacity or energy to “fight” for their kids.

And so? Frankly, we've watched the One Percent make war on those folks for the last 50 years.

It reminds me of the old joke. A Plutocrat, a Teabagger and a Welfare Mom go into a restaurant. The waiter brings out a plate of ten cookies, the Plutocrat wolfs down nine of them and says to the Teabagger, "That Welfare Queen wants half your cookie!!!"

It seems that you are trying to set up an argument against my very equitable proposal to change AA to one which is based on SES (along with academic success) rather than continue with a race-based policy. I would like to see all poor(er) kids, regardless of color, who were studious, disciplined, and bright enough to be among the top 5% of their class get a free ride to State U.

Um... okay. Again, should I point out that UIC, which was specifically built as the "inner city" college to serve inner city youth, today has a black enrollment of 9%. This is what happens when you aren't actively pushing for equality.

As an aside, there are other ways to formulate this. This “5% group” could also be granted the dollars equivalent to State U tuition to apply towards the tuition at any college in the country, to which they gain admittance.

Again, doesn't really solve the problem, does it? While I think there should be more economic opportunities for the working class (you know, the people the One Percent have been screwing for the last 50 years), it doesn't solve the overall problem of the levers of power being overwhelmingly white in this country.

The problem isn't just the openly racist admissions director or HR Manager or CEO. The problem is the institutionalized racism that most white folks don't even think about.

I have told this story before, but it bears repeating.

In 2012, my department saw three members of our 8 member team leave over the course of the summer.

A Chinse-American woman who had been with the company for 10 years
An African American woman who had been with the company for two years.
A white intern who had been with the company for six months.

Now, the General Manager was a busy guy, or so he told us. So when we held farewell lunches for these three ladies, guess which one he re-arranged his schedule for to be there?

Guess which two he couldn't be bothered with?

This same Manager would later let go of an African-American mother to create a position for his drinking buddy, who had absolutely no qualifications to do the job he was hired for. So I ended up doing my work, her work, and some of his work.

 

[JoeMoma]

Affirmative Action should have an expiration date.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Okay, let's look at that.

Why should the guy who spent a tour sitting behind a desk filing paperwork (which pretty much describes my military career) get the same bennies as the guy who went to war and got shot at and got PTSD?

Why should the slacker who worked minimum wage jobs get the same Social Security payments (mostly) as the skilled tradesman.

If you want to talk about a real inequity, we can get to medicare. You actually get more money if you DIDN'T take care of yourself.

Our system is "Welfare for me, but not for thee".

Most people who collect welfare when they hit a rough patch are only on it for a few years. But someone who retires at 62 and lives to be 78 can get it for 16 years.

We have just enough socialism to keep people from becoming poor and demanding actual socialism.

Because the guy sitting behind the desk still worked long hours, did deployments, and made personal sacrifices for low pay. As for Medicare and SS because they paid into it. And they don’t get the same payments, payments have a salary component.

 

[JoeB131]

Because the guy sitting behind the desk still worked long hours, did deployments, and made personal sacrifices for low pay. As for Medicare and SS because they paid into it. And they don’t get the same payments, payments have a salary component.

1) As a guy who was sitting behind one of those desks... meh, not really. I was paid for the time I gave them. Period. Anything more is a charity.
2) Medicare you get more the sicker you are. We actually reward people's bad lifestyle choices.
3) Social Security maxes out after a certain point.

Sorry, man, these programs are what they are ... welfare for white people.

 

[AZrailwhale]

1) As a guy who was sitting behind one of those desks... meh, not really. I was paid for the time I gave them. Period. Anything more is a charity.
2) Medicare you get more the sicker you are. We actually reward people's bad lifestyle choices.
3) Social Security maxes out after a certain point.

Sorry, man, these programs are what they are ... welfare for white people.

Everybody gets them that pays into them. There is no racial component. Yes SS maxes out, so the upper middle class and rich get shortchanged.

 

[LOIE]

Also remember, my suggested approach would still give advantage to poorer blacks, who would compete within their own cohort.

And you say that you suppose poor white teens have a better support system, but that’s not true. Poor teens are in poor families for the same reason blacks teens are - a single, uneducated mother working night shifts at the diner (or whatever), and without the capacity or energy to “fight” for their kids.

It seems that you are trying to set up an argument against my very equitable proposal to change AA to one which is based on SES (along with academic success) rather than continue with a race-based policy. I would like to see all poor(er) kids, regardless of color, who were studious, disciplined, and bright enough to be among the top 5% of their class get a free ride to State U.

As an aside, there are other ways to formulate this. This “5% group” could also be granted the dollars equivalent to State U tuition to apply towards the tuition at any college in the country, to which they gain admittance.

I don't seriously disagree with you about your proposal. If AA is to be changed, will it change enough so that white women are not benefitting disproportionately? And are you in a position to suggest and implement such changes or are you actively suggesting them to others who can?

 

[Lisa558]

I don't seriously disagree with you about your proposal. If AA is to be changed, will it change enough so that white women are not benefitting disproportionately? And are you in a position to suggest and implement such changes or are you actively suggesting them to others who can?

Alas, I am no longer working in higher ed admissions, and even if I were, a proposal like this would have hurt me. As I’m sure you’re aware, the education system is made up of far-left Democrats, and I would be accused of racism for bucking the current affirmative action system.

But as far as the white women benefitting, they would benefit to the same extent as anybody who met the standards of the new system: if they are in the top 5% of their school, and from a poor(er) family, they would benefit the same way a black woman would, or a black man, or a white man. That’s because skin color is irrelevant.

Let me ask you: why are you so against a white woman benefitting? Let’s say I am 17 years old, being raised by a single mother earning $40,000, holding down a part-time job to help with the family finances, and still manage to get grades and test scores that put me in the 5%. Why would you not want a white girl, from a modest family, who is studious, hard-working, and bright to get a chance as well?

 

[LOIE]

Alas, I am no longer working in higher ed admissions, and even if I were, a proposal like this would have hurt me. As I’m sure you’re aware, the education system is made up of far-left Democrats, and I would be accused of racism for bucking the current affirmative action system.

But as far as the white women benefitting, they would benefit to the same extent as anybody who met the standards of the new system: if they are in the top 5% of their school, and from a poor(er) family, they would benefit the same way a black woman would, or a black man, or a white man. That’s because skin color is irrelevant.

Let me ask you: why are you so against a white woman benefitting? Let’s say I am 17 years old, being raised by a single mother earning $40,000, holding down a part-time job to help with the family finances, and still manage to get grades and test scores that put me in the 5%. Why would you not want a white girl, from a modest family, who is studious, hard-working, and bright to get a chance as well?

I don't say that I'm actually against a white woman benefitting, but stats I've seen about AA say that they are benefitting disproportionately. What I actually wish is that from the very beginning of our country, everyone had been given equal opportunities to a great education, housing, jobs, etc. but since that didn't happen, adjustments had to be made to try to make things a bit more fair.

 

[Lisa558]

I don't say that I'm actually against a white woman benefitting, but stats I've seen about AA say that they are benefitting disproportionately. What I actually wish is that from the very beginning of our country, everyone had been given equal opportunities to a great education, housing, jobs, etc. but since that didn't happen, adjustments had to be made to try to make things a bit more fair.

I agree….I wish our country hadn‘t been so unfair previously. And I agree that adjustments had to be made to make up for that, and AA was where they landed, which is logical. But I do believe that two generations of it is enough, and it’s time to move to a race-blind policy that still gives a helping hand to those who started off with a bad hand of cards.

As far as women benefitting disproportionately, I’ve heard talk of that, but most of the focus where I worked centered on giving blacks (and Latinos) priority over whites. There was virtually no mind paid to admitting young women over the young men. It was all centered on race and ethnicity.

 

[JoeB131]

Everybody gets them that pays into them. There is no racial component. Yes SS maxes out, so the upper middle class and rich get shortchanged.

You miss the point of white people welfare, as the majority of ANY government program will go to white people. Now, I refer to entitlements as "White People Welfare" because it is welfare white people approve of.

But it's still welfare.

Alas, I am no longer working in higher ed admissions, and even if I were, a proposal like this would have hurt me. As I’m sure you’re aware, the education system is made up of far-left Democrats, and I would be accused of racism for bucking the current affirmative action system.

I think we are finding the source of all Lizard88's anger... her open racism made her very unwelcome in progressive higher ed.

Let me ask you: why are you so against a white woman benefitting? Let’s say I am 17 years old, being raised by a single mother earning $40,000, holding down a part-time job to help with the family finances, and still manage to get grades and test scores that put me in the 5%. Why would you not want a white girl, from a modest family, who is studious, hard-working, and bright to get a chance as well?

Because that white girl was not kept down by 400 years of institutionalized racism... that's why.

I agree….I wish our country hadn‘t been so unfair previously. And I agree that adjustments had to be made to make up for that, and AA was where they landed, which is logical. But I do believe that two generations of it is enough, and it’s time to move to a race-blind policy that still gives a helping hand to those who started off with a bad hand of cards.

Um, we have had 400 years of institutionalized racism. You think that really gets "erased" in two generations of half-assed affirmative action programs that benefited white women more than people of color.

 

[MizMolly]

All the dummies are out today... I guess the Cross Burning Broke up Early.



I'd be more amused if you could actually SPELL privilege, much less understood the concept.

As I have stated, Every job I have had since I left the army in 1992, the decision to hire me has been made by a white person, usually a white male. The only time in my life a person of color was instrumental in getting me a job was when an Asian American female I helped early in her career gave me a recommendation when we were both a lot further along. And it was still white dudes making the call.

Now, while I think there is STILL a lot of racism in the C-Suites and HR offices, some of it is a LOT more subtle. We tend to favor people who remind of us of ourselves. We see the physical ideal of beauty or handsomeness as white people. So without AA, HR people would just pick other white people.

In fact, the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action have been... wait for it, White Women.






See, here's more of the same.

The US spends less than 500 Billion a year on "Welfare" - poverty relief programs like Section 8, SNAP, TANF, WIC. And the majority of people on them are white.

The US Spends 2.5 TRILLION on "Middle Class Entitlements" - Social Security, Disability, Medicare, Veteran's Benefits, Unemployment Insurance. Programs designed specifically to keep middle class white people from becoming poor because they run afoul of this thing called "life".

There ya go with the AA benefits white women the most. Firstly, there is no way to prove that. By suggesting this is saying women in the workforce did not earn their way, and you know this how? I was given nothing without working for it.

Enough already about 400 years of white racism. You cannot compare people in the past to people today. Yes, racism exist, no, not in all situations. To say poor white kids are advantaged is ridiculous. As far as who attends Harvard and Yale instead of less elite schools, it’s a wealth issue, not race.

 

[MizMolly]

1) As a guy who was sitting behind one of those desks... meh, not really. I was paid for the time I gave them. Period. Anything more is a charity.
2) Medicare you get more the sicker you are. We actually reward people's bad lifestyle choices.
3) Social Security maxes out after a certain point.

Sorry, man, these programs are what they are ... welfare for white people.

You are saying only whites receive SS and Medicare? I am retired and I receive Medicare, that I paid for, and still pay for, it isn’t free.

 

[JoeB131]

There ya go with the AA benefits white women the most. Firstly, there is no way to prove that. By suggesting this is saying women in the workforce did not earn their way, and you know this how? I was given nothing without working for it.

Bullshit. As a wise man said, "you didn't build that!" We all got to where we got because someone gave us a helping hand at some point.

The thing was, companies got as many AA points for hiring white women as they did for hiring black men.

Enough already about 400 years of white racism. You cannot compare people in the past to people today. Yes, racism exist, no, not in all situations. To say poor white kids are advantaged is ridiculous. As far as who attends Harvard and Yale instead of less elite schools, it’s a wealth issue, not race.

Of course white kids are at an advantage, even the poor ones, when it comes to college admissions and job opportunities.

Mostly because the other people making the decisions are... wait for it... white.

It's not just the openly racist bosses and hiring managers, although they exist. It's the subtle racism of hiring, promoting, and renting to people who remind you of yourself.

You are saying only whites receive SS and Medicare? I am retired and I receive Medicare, that I paid for, and still pay for, it isn’t free.

I'm saying SS and Medicare are "Welfare" white people are fine with... but it's still welfare. You still will get more out of it than you ever paid in.

 

[Lisa558]

You are saying only whites receive SS and Medicare? I am retired and I receive Medicare, that I paid for, and still pay for, it isn’t free.

What racists like Joe want are programs that benefit ONLY blacks - and at the expense of whites. He calls anyone who objects to such race-based decisions a racist (how ironic) in an effort to shame, demonize, and silence them. The usual leftist tactic.

 

[JoeB131]

What racists like Joe want are programs that benefit ONLY blacks - and at the expense of whites. He calls anyone who objects to such race-based decisions a racist (how ironic) in an effort to shame, demonize, and silence them. The usual leftist tactic.

Whites benefited from 400 years of slavery and Jim Crow... Other minorities should be taken into consideration, as should gender, sexual orientation and disability. But no other minority has really faced the systematic racism blacks have encountered.

Here's the thing, as a white, straight, cisgendered male, I should probably whining the loudest about affirmative action. I can honestly say I only really started encountering "discrimination" about 10 years ago, when I started running into age discrimination. (Which I partially mitigate by dying my hair when I am on a job hunt.)

 

[Lisa558]

I think we are finding the source of all Lizard88's anger... her open racism made her very unwelcome in progressive higher ed.

My belief that admissions decisions should be race-blind makes me a racist? To the contrary, the leftists who think skin color should determine whether one is admitted or not are the racists. But you’re right - I wasn’t openly applauding the anti-white decisions made, and I
ultimately decided to leave for a non-racist organization.

Because that white girl was not kept down by 400 years of institutionalized racism... that's why.

Enough already. The black girl wasn’t kept down by 400 years of racism, either. She was born at the time blacks were being favored (started in the 1970s) and has enjoyed that favoritism

Um, we have had 400 years of institutionalized racism. You think that really gets "erased" in two generations of half-assed affirmative action programs that benefited white women more than people of color.

Um, my grandparents and great-grandparents arrived in this country, penniless and uneducated, fleeing Russian pograms and Hitler (different generation on each side), and were faced with horrible antisemitism in this country, too. Despite that, in ONE generation, their kids were all college graduates. From cold-water tenements in 1948 to “starter” home ownership in the suburbs in 1958, and to large colonial homes by 1970.

So YES…..two generations of favoritism in college admissions is enough. It’s time for blacks to compete in merit alone, and time to stop making whites - born generations after slavery and generations after Jim Crow - pay the price because they have the wrong skin color.

 

[AMart]

Affirmative Action should have an expiration date.

Like January 1 1988.

 

[JoeB131]

My belief that admissions decisions should be race-blind makes me a racist? To the contrary, the leftists who think skin color should determine whether one is admitted or not are the racists. But you’re right - I wasn’t openly applauding the anti-white decisions made, and I
ultimately decided to leave for a non-racist organization.

Pictured: Lisa "deciding to leave". Probably right after her co-workers got tired of her whinging about company policies and had a word with human resources.

Now, I can get how getting screwed by an employer can make you bitter.. Trust me, I stopped voting Republican after my Romney-loving boss screwed up my career back in the Aughts. But funny thing. White people are ALWAYS going to be at an advantage in this society. Every job I have ever gotten I got because another white person made a decision to hire me. Even when I worked for a Japanese Company, it was still white people doing the hiring.

Enough already. The black girl wasn’t kept down by 400 years of racism, either. She was born at the time blacks were being favored (started in the 1970s) and has enjoyed that favoritism

Were all the white HR people suddenly replaced by blacks? What? No? A small quota of black people getting jobs when employers can get just as much credit for hiring white women is hardly a big advantage. You can't erase 400 years of injustice with 40 years of trying to make a token effort to be fair.

Um, my grandparents and great-grandparents arrived in this country, penniless and uneducated, fleeing Russian programs and Hitler (different generation on each side), and were faced with horrible antisemitism in this country, too. Despite that, in ONE generation, their kids were all college graduates. From cold-water tenements in 1945 to home ownership in the suburbs in 1955.

What horrible anti-Semitism? Sorry, America has always been welcoming to Jews. We even had an open policy of importing more of them from the former USSR. That is when we aren't openly subsidizing the Zionist Entity.

Now, since I really can't talk about your family without breaking forum rules, I'll talk about mine. My grandparents came here from Germany in 1925 when my dad was a baby. And, yes, they encountered some anti-German discrimination. If was between world wars against Germany, after all. They stopped calling themselves "Ludwig and Magdalena" and started calling themselves "Louis and Helen". They also changed how they pronounced the family name to sound less German.

But this funny thing happened. Because they were white, they were accepted as white within one generation. Because once you lose the funny accent, you are just another white person.

So imagine that you are some Black person, and your families have been working for generations to build this country, and suddenly some Russian Jew or German jumps into the line ahead of you and gets the benefits!

So YES…..two generations of favoritism in college admissions is enough. It’s time for blacks to compete in merit alone, and time to stop making whites - born generations after slavery and generations after Jim Crow - pay the price because they have the wrong skin color.

Why? They are STILL enjoying the benefits.

In my working life, I've seen one black woman who got a job she didn't really merit. It might have been because of affirmative action, or it might because on paper, her resume looked kind of awesome.

I've seen a lot of white people get jobs they didn't merit because they were related to the boss, sleeping with the boss, drinking buddies with the boss, or someone the boss knew from church.

 

[MizMolly]

Bullshit. As a wise man said, "you didn't build that!" We all got to where we got because someone gave us a helping hand at some point.

The thing was, companies got as many AA points for hiring white women as they did for hiring black men.

View attachment 606638



Of course white kids are at an advantage, even the poor ones, when it comes to college admissions and job opportunities.

Mostly because the other people making the decisions are... wait for it... white.

It's not just the openly racist bosses and hiring managers, although they exist. It's the subtle racism of hiring, promoting, and renting to people who remind you of yourself.




I'm saying SS and Medicare are "Welfare" white people are fine with... but it's still welfare. You still will get more out of it than you ever paid in.

Make sure to refuse your “welfare” when you retire.

 

[MizMolly]

Bullshit. As a wise man said, "you didn't build that!" We all got to where we got because someone gave us a helping hand at some point.

The thing was, companies got as many AA points for hiring white women as they did for hiring black men.

View attachment 606638



Of course white kids are at an advantage, even the poor ones, when it comes to college admissions and job opportunities.

Mostly because the other people making the decisions are... wait for it... white.

It's not just the openly racist bosses and hiring managers, although they exist. It's the subtle racism of hiring, promoting, and renting to people who remind you of yourself.




I'm saying SS and Medicare are "Welfare" white people are fine with... but it's still welfare. You still will get more out of it than you ever paid in.

You can’t prove white women were hired because of their gender and race. I was raised poor and worked for everything, nothing was a freebie. Are you suggesting that working white women didn’t earn their way?