Why United States is going to lose the War on Terror

[Annie]

I hear ya. I thought I read about a close friendship between Chiang's wife and the first Lady, but I can't recall details to be sure. It could have been with another wife of a big shot in the US admin.. If that kind of thing was going on you bet the President would get an ear full don't you think, lol!

Now that you mention it, that is awakening some memories of such. I know that Chiang was more 'Western'. I'll see what I can find...

 

[freeandfun1]

Now that you mention it, that is awakening some memories of such. I know that Chiang was more 'Western'. I'll see what I can find...

She was VERY western and had a LOT of influence in America. A matter-of-fact, didn't she die while living in NYC just a few years ago?

She even addressed the US Congress at one time on behalf of her husband.

 

[Annie]

What I've found on the 2nd wife are both by TIME:

http://www.time.com/time/personoftheyear/archive/stories/1937.html

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501031103-526553,00.html

 

[wade]

What? We were fighting to prop up one of the worst totalitarian regimes in the history of mankind.

Against falling to a regime even WORSE. MILLIONS of citizens slaughtered by Communists in the region after taking control and ending the war. So tell us who was worse, becuase its EITHER one OR the other.

You don't know your history very well do you? Let me enlighten you about Vietnam. Off the top of my head (as I don't want to dig out books to find the actual dates):

In ~100 BC China conquered the northern part of what is now known as Vietnam, and dominated it for about 1000 years, after which they withdrew and there were two regions of indpendant governments, the North and the South, the South being a collection of smaller kingdoms. This was followed by about a 200 year Golden period, under the Lyy (?) Dynasty, where Vietnamese culture thrived. A little before 1300 AD, Kublai Khan sent a 500,000 strong army to invade the region, which was wiped out by Vietnamese Guerillas. About 1400 AD the Ming dynasty successfully occupied the region, but after about 25 years they were repelled. Squabbling between the North and South continued throughout this period, until about 1800 when the country was unified and re-named Vietnam.

In 1861 the French siezed control of Saigon, and within about 20 years managed to subjugate all of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, creating what is generally refered to as "French-Indochina". French rule was extremely harsh, amounting to pure slavery of the most brutal kind. The French killed Vietnamese freely, and imprisoned hundreds of thousands in what can only be called slave-labor camps.

In 1940 the French forces in the region handed effective control to the Japanese without a fight. The Japanese forced the Vietnamese Emperor to declare the north (and center) indpendant regions during the occupation, allowing him to remain as their puppet.

Ho Chi Minh had been active in the anti-French rule movement since about the end of WWI, and had first apporoached the USA and Britain for support, then when denied, turned to the Soviets. After the war, Ho Chi Minh assumed power after having driven the Japanese out with little outside assistance.

At this point the French wanted to resume their domination of the region.

Now to your "points":

We were fighting for the continuance of the slave-plantation system maintained by the French.

Yeah, fighting for slavery. Got ya~

Yes, we were fighting to restor slavery to the region, at first by supporting the French, who got their asses kicked by Ho Chi Minh's forces. We fully financed a force of 80,000 French soldiers virtually all of whom were wiped out or surrendered. US suport to the french totaled $1.4 billion in the first 10 years after WWII.

Yes the people were duped by the promises of the communists, namely land reform, but don't for one instant try to claim that we were there in the intrest of the freedom of the Vietnamese people.

Their freedom was in our interest.

We were never in any way fighting for the "Freedom" of the Vietnamese people. That is just a lie. We were willing to ignore their plight in order to further our aims against communism. At first we tried to support French rule, when that failed, we then supported the Vietnamese (catholic converts) aristorcracy installed by the French. In both cases, we were supporting totalitarian rule.

Freedom, by it's very nature requires that the will of the people be respected, and that is something the USA was clearly not willing to do if that will was to follow Ho-Chi-Mein.

And we know for a fact the will of the people was not to back Ho-Chi-Min.

The will of SOME people may have been, but those in the North had NO CHOICE to express that will, while many in the South who WERE KILLED, or had all their property siezed, or simply wanted to be FREE to CHOOSE, all those are people you are blind to seeing. You express simply a trained statement learned in some Liberal meme.

You're just delusional. You are the one expressing some mantra learned in your right-wing meme, without actually looking into the facts of history. The people of the NORTH did have a choice, and they chose Ho Chi Minh.

And the whole fiasco could have been avoided years before if we had just entertained Ho-Chi-Mein's desire to free his people. Our own intelligence people recommended we support him. If not for this foolish support of the oppressor nation there would never have been a communist movement in Vietnam, Ho-Chi-Mien prefered to deal with us, and only turned to the communists because we supported the french.

That's ridiculous, we became involved only after Ho Chi Min was a declared communist, defeated the French, signed the UN peace treaty, and then recanted on the terms of democratic selection of the future government and began to plan insurrenction into South Vietnam.

In 1945 and 1946 Ho Chi Minh wrote 8 letters to Pres. Truman asking for assistance in establishing a Democratic government in Vietnam, free of French rule and w/o ties to the Soviets. None were acknowleged.

Who recanted? You have this wrong, it was not Ho Chi Minh who recanted, IT WAS THE USA!

"I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indo-China affairs who did not believe that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 percent of the population would have voted for the communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than Chief of State Bao Dai."
-Memiors of Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower

Instead, the USA hand picked Ngo Dinh Diem, a Catholic and former provisional Governer under the French in 1926, and effectively made him "interim" President in 1954 (in rigged elections vs. Bao Dai). In 1955, The North Vietnamese government reminded Diem that there was to be a General Election for the whole of the country in July, 1956, as per the Geneva Conference (UN) agreement. Diem refused to acknowlege the upcomming elections and and within a short period approximately 100,000 people were put in prison camps. Communists, socialists, journalists, trade-unionists, leaders of religious groups, and even children found writing anti-Diem messages on walls were put in prison. Elections were never held, but the USA continued to support Diem.

Catholic Vietnamese were given virtually all of the positions of Authority under the Diem regime, just as had been the case under French rule, where "converting" to Catholisism was generally rewarded, while the majority Buhdist population (over 70%) was repressed. There was no land-reform, the peasents were still forced to work land over which they had no effective ownership. Taxes were extremely oppressive, and debt-slavery (where they could not leave the farm until all debts were paid) was the world of the land. The Vietnamese people saw no end to the oppression, so of course they turned to the Communists as the only alternative.

A lack of understanding of your opponent usually leads to defeat, and this fact was clearly made in Vietnam.

And see your solution was simple, support the Communist, and we'd win, right?

I hope you can see that this is not my point at all. Instead, we should have supported Ho Chi Minh from the start, supported free elections, and supported democracy, even if socialist, in Vietnam. Instead we supported tyranny and dictatorship. The people of Vietnam could clearly see this, and so they were willing to do whatever they had to to defeat us.

And the point of all this is that the same is true in Iraq. We cannot tell them how to rule their country. The mere act of doing so denies their freedom and defeats the purpose. If a majority of the people of Iraq reject secular authority, then the more we try to force it upon them the more strongly they will demand a religious government. Its a self defeating effort to try to force your idea of freedom down someone elses throat and then expect them to like it. So the US idea of installing a "democracy" in Iraq is doomed to failure.

BTW: I suggest you read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independance:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/vietdec.htm

Where do you see any communist leaning in this document. Ho Chi Minh was not an ideological communist, he was a nationalist who wanted to free his people. If given the means to do so w/o turning to communisim, this whole mess could have been avoided and the US position in SE Asia would be stronger by far today than it is.

Wade.

 

[freeandfun1]

Timeline of Vietnam History
By Quang-Tuan Luong © 2001
Home : Travel : Vietnam : One Article
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
111 BC: The Nam Viet kingdom (spreading from the Red River delta to north of Canton) is annexed by the Han and becomes the chinese district of Giao-chi. The next thousand years is marked by progress in civilization, but also in the national sentiment. Numerous uprisings most notably the Trung sisters (40-43) and Ly Bon (542-545) rebelions, are crushed. During the entire Vietnam history China remains both a model and a threat.
602: Chinese rule is now a protectorat, the capital being Dai La Thanh (Hanoi)
939: Ngo Quyen frees the country (Dai Co Viet) by vanquishing Chinese armies at the Bach Dang river.
968: Dinh Bo Linh pacifies the country, and reorganizes it following the Chinese model. Mandarins will be recruited by litterary contests from 1075 (Van Mieu temple) to 1919. The capital moves to Hoa Lu with the Dinh and first Le dynasties.
1010: The Ly dynasty moves the capital to Thanh Long (Hanoi). During their reign, Chinese, Khmer, and Cham attacks are repelled (most notably by Ly Thuong Kiet). The expension towards the South begins, with territories conquered from the Cham (this resulted in the destruction of their culture).
1226: Tran dynasty.
1288: After thirty years of periodic invasions, the Mongols are defeated by Tran Hung Dao at the Bach Dang river.
1407: Chinese occupation Ming.
1428: After his victory against the Chinese armies, with the aid of Nguyen Trai, Le Loi begins the second Le dynasty, which sees further annexions in the South.
1524: Begining of a long period of political instability. While the Le govern only nominaly, a feudal war rages between the Trinh from the North (Thang Long) and the Nguyen from the South (Hue).
1651: Jesuit Alexandres de Rhodes publishes in Roma a latin/vietnamese cathechism and creates the Ngoc Ngu, the roman-based script currently used for Vietnamese (Vietnam is only one of three countries in Asia which uses a roman-based script).
1771: The Tay Son brothers start a rebellion which will cause thirty years of heavy warfare. One of them, Nguyen Hue, reigns as Quang Trung and defeats the Chinese army at Dong Da.
1802: After pushing back the Tay Son with the help of French mercenaires recruited by Jesuit Pigneau de Behaine, Nguyen Anh (the only survivor from the massacre of the Nguyen by the Tay Son brothers) changes his name to Gia Long and starts the Nguyen dynasty. The capital of the unified country is now Hue.
1858: The French navy attacks Da Nang.
1867: Cochinchina (the South) becomes a French Colony.
1883: Tonkin (the North) and Annam (the Center) become French protectorates.
1887: Creation of the Indochina Union, Cochinchina, Annam, Tonkin, Cambodia, and latter Laos.
1932: Bao Dai, the last emperor, begins his reign as an infant.
1940: Invasion of Indochina by Japan. The French administration collaborate and continue to run the government.
1941: Ho Chi Minh starts the Viet Minh. Leninism is thought of as an ideological weapon to serve Vietnamese nationalism against French colonialism.
1945 (March 9): The Japanese end up French authority. (Aug 19): The Viet Minh starts a general popular insurection. Bao Dai abdiquates. (Sept 2): Ho Chi Minh declares independance in Hanoi (US agents stand at his side) (Sept 23): The French authorities reoccupy the South.
1946: After the failed Fontainebleau conference between Ho Chi Minh and the French government, notably about the question of the status of Cochinchina, and the bombing of Haiphong (6000 killed), the war between the French troops and the Viet Minh for the control of Vietnam begins.
1954: The bulk of the French army is defeated at Dien Bien Phu (this is the first time in history a colonial power is militarily defeated, a massive decolonization follows worldwide). At the Geneva conference, the country is partitioned at the 17th parallel as an interim stage. The North becomes the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, a communist state supported by China and the USSR (the strict communist ideology began to prevail at the 2nd congress of the Vietnamese labor party in 1951).
1955: Refusing to implement the Geneva accords, Ngo Dien Diem proclaims himself president of the Republic of South Vietnam with backing from the West.
1959: The communist party decides to start military operations in the South. Construction of the Ho Chi Minh trail.
1961: Kennedy decides to increase US military aid to South Vietnam, first in the form of military advisors (16000 by 1965).
1963: Ngo Dien Diem is assassinated in a US-initiated coup.
1964: Although elected as a dovish candidate against Goldwater, Johnson decides to escaladate the war. All but two US senators pass the "Tonkin Gulf resolution", which gives a blank checks to US presidents over Vietnam.
1965 (Feb): First US aerial raids against the North. The tonnage of bombs used during the US intervention (mostly against civilian targets) in Vietnam will exceed that used during the whole WW II, and include use of chemical arms. (March) First US troops in Danang. Their number will grow up to more half a million. Nguyen Van Thieu president.
1968 (Jan 31): The Viet Cong's Tet offensive, although a military failure, stuns the West and becomes a psychological turning point as it makes the public aware of the nature of the war and the impasse. Anti-war movements begin in the West, and are fuelled in the US by the revelation of the "Pentagon papers" in 1971 which show how US presidents had deceitfully handled the matter. Negotiations begin in Paris, but in the while more military escaladations take place.
1973: After the ratification of the Paris accords, the US military withdraw.
1975 (April 30): Viet Cong troops enter Saigon, after a two-month campaign in spite of the Paris accords.
1976: The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is officially proclaimed.
1978: Vietnam joins the USSR-lead Comecon. The tragedy of the Hai Hong, old cargo boat overloaded with refugies brings to the world attention about the "boat people" fleeing the new regime. They will total more than half a million people.
1979 (Jan): Vietnamese troops enter Phnom Penh and end the murderous Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. (Feb): A retaliatory invasion from China is repelled during a month-long war.
1987: A law on foreign investments marks the beginning of the liberalization of the economy (but not of politics, cf also China and other Asian countries). The first turists visit the country.
1989: Withdrawal from Cambodia (this is the first time for half a century that the country is not engaged in any war).
1991: Relationships are normalized with China (note that this year saw the end of the USSR).
1995: Diplomatic relationships are fully normalized with the US, one year after the end of the US embargo.

 

[wade]

I'd never see a reason for America to EVER give support to an enemy of our greatest allies from WWII.

Well this makes sense, but we also know our allies were trying to extricate themselves from each of of their colonies after WWII, as a policy, and did so as reasonably as they could, without leaving behind a mess or so-called friendly 'revolutionaries'. If they were attacking those same people like the UK who freed them from Japan, mere months afterwards, I think that's something to consider.

Well that's odd though, since he never lived up to a single shred of it even after he had total control.

Which just proves he was full of shit!

I hate this boards quote system - I'm not going to formulate another set of inlaid quotes...

Ho Chi Minh never had a chance to "live up" to the VN declaration of indepenance, as he had a war to fight which forced him to ally with totalitarian governments and create totalitarian structures which he could not dissemble after the war was won. Read my reply to your earlier post.

What is "full of shit" is your assertion that the French were one of our "greatest allies in WWII". Again, somehow I think you just don't know your history. This time, why don't you explain how they were such a great "Ally". I wanna hear your excuses for the behaivor of DeGaul prior to D-Day, where he was making demands and refusing to go along with the allied plans for the liberation of France.

The French were useless in WWII, they probably helped Germany and Japan more than they helped the Allies. They should never have been given "victor" status after the war. They have a history of talking high minded idiology but practicing the basest of inhumane policies to line their pockets. The French are the biggest nation of hippocrits in the world.

Wade.

 

[freeandfun1]

I hate this boards quote system - I'm not going to formulate another set of inlaid quotes...

Ho Chi Minh never had a chance to "live up" to the VN declaration of indepenance, as he had a war to fight which forced him to ally with totalitarian governments and create totalitarian structures which he could not dissemble after the war was won. Read my reply to your earlier post.

What is "full of shit" is your assertion that the French were one of our "greatest allies in WWII". Again, somehow I think you just don't know your history. This time, why don't you explain how they were such a great "Ally". I wanna hear your excuses for the behaivor of DeGaul prior to D-Day, where he was making demands and refusing to go along with the allied plans for the liberation of France.

The French were useless in WWII, they probably helped Germany and Japan more than they helped the Allies. They should never have been given "victor" status after the war. They have a history of talking high minded idiology but practicing the basest of inhumane policies to line their pockets. The French are the biggest nation of hippocrits in the world.

Wade.

The Vichy (sp) gov't was an ally of the Germans and made up a large majority of the population. The French have a history of f*ucking us without even giving us a kiss!

 

[wade]

The Vichy (sp) gov't was an ally of the Germans and made up a large majority of the population. The French have a history of f*ucking us without even giving us a kiss!

Hey Free! We do have something in common! We both agree the French are a just a huge pile of poop!

I don't think there has ever been another peoples so stuck up on themselves, espousing their enlightenedness at every opportunity, while repeatedly exhibiting their complete lack of national character.

Wade.

 

[freeandfun1]

Hey Free! We do have something in common! We both agree the French are a just a huge pile of poop!

I don't think there has ever been another peoples so stuck up on themselves, espousing their enlightenedness at every opportunity, while repeatedly exhibiting their complete lack of national character.

Wade.

Glad we could find something.....

I have been to France SEVERAL times and I can't stand the place. It was beautiful my first visit but each visit after that, I began to HATE the place more and more. I HAD to go there as one of the companies I represent always had their international rep meetings in Paris as the Ritz once a year.

 

[Comrade]

I hate this boards quote system - I'm not going to formulate another set of inlaid quotes...

Ho Chi Minh never had a chance to "live up" to the VN declaration of indepenance, as he had a war to fight which forced him to ally with totalitarian governments and create totalitarian structures which he could not dissemble after the war was won. Read my reply to your earlier post.

What is "full of shit" is your assertion that the French were one of our "greatest allies in WWII". Again, somehow I think you just don't know your history.

Oh yah sure, whatever, big boy. Somehow I think you can't read smilies to connotate meaning...

France is one of our greatest allies!

^^^
Are you smilie impaired? :nine:

This time, why don't you explain how they were such a great "Ally".
I wanna hear your excuses for the behaivor of DeGaul prior to D-Day, where he was making demands and refusing to go along with the allied plans for the liberation of France.

Look at you rant like that! :funnyface

The French were useless in WWII, they probably helped Germany and Japan more than they helped the Allies. They should never have been given "victor" status after the war. They have a history of talking high minded idiology but practicing the basest of inhumane policies to line their pockets. The French are the biggest nation of hippocrits in the world.

Wade.

Next time look at the smilies before you go off on a tirade like that, okay? Do me that favour, smart guy.

 

[wade]

Oh yah sure, whatever, big boy. Somehow I think you can't read smilies to connotate meaning...


^^^
Are you smilie impaired? :nine:



Look at you rant like that! :funnyface



Next time look at the smilies before you go off on a tirade like that, okay? Do me that favour, smart guy.

You seem to ascribe some sepcific meaning to the smilies. Grow up and say what ya mean. Besides, it does not alter the basic meaning of what you were trying to say, which was pure !

And your earlier post about the Vietnam situation was clearly based upon a seriously deluded version of the history of the region.

Wade.

 

[Comrade]

You seem to ascribe some sepcific meaning to the smilies.

Grow up and say what ya mean. Besides, it does not alter the basic meaning
of what you were trying to say, which was pure !

You said the will of the people was to support Ho Chi Mihn. I said the will of only SOME people was to support him.

Clear?

And your earlier post about the Vietnam situation was clearly based upon a seriously deluded version of the history of the region.
Wade.

You said:

Ho Chi Minh never had a chance to "live up" to the VN declaration of indepenance, as he had a war to fight which forced him to ally with totalitarian governments and create totalitarian structures which he could not dissemble after the war was won.

If Ho Chi Mihn created a totalitarian state under Ho Chi Mihn which Ho Chi Mihn could not control, why is it America's fault?

What is "full of shit" is your assertion that the French were one of our "greatest allies in WWII". Again, somehow I think you just don't know your history. This time, why don't you explain how they were such a great "Ally". I wanna hear your excuses for the behaivor of DeGaul prior to D-Day, where he was making demands and refusing to go along with the allied plans for the liberation of France.

Demands like what? To liberate Paris with his troops?

You wanna hear specific excuses for what demands, son? I'm sure you can be specific.

The French were useless in WWII, they probably helped Germany and Japan more than they helped the Allies. They should never have been given "victor" status after the war. They have a history of talking high minded idiology but practicing the basest of inhumane policies to line their pockets. The French are the biggest nation of hippocrits in the world.

Me said:

The French are our Greatest Allies!

 

[wade]

You said the will of the people was to support Ho Chi Mihn. I said the will of only SOME people was to support him.

Clear?

Don't try to back out of what you said. You clearly meant that you thought he was not a popular leader, and that the people of the North didn't even have a say in his selection. 80% is not "SOME", it is "MOST", and within a "democracy", it is more than enough to clearly state the public will.

What is just clear that you didn't know the facts, relying on your right-wing thinking that it must be so that Ho Chi Minh was evil by definition, and did not have the support of the majority of the Vietnamese people.

If Ho Chi Mihn created a totalitarian state under Ho Chi Mihn which Ho Chi Mihn could not control, why is it America's fault?

Because we created a totalitarian state and pitted it against them. Because we were not on the side of freedom. Because we created a situation which forced totalitariansim upon Vietnam.

Demands like what? To liberate Paris with his troops?

You wanna hear specific excuses for what demands, son? I'm sure you can be specific.

You clearly don't know anything about it. FDR and Churchill seriously considered having DeGaul assasinated because he would not comply with the planned liberation of France. I don't need to give specifics, the whole of his position was that even though France had succumb to the Germans in a mere 6 weeks, had for the most part supported the German and Japanese war efforts thereafter, they were still an equal member of the Allies. The man was a pompous asshole, typical of the French.

Wade.

 

[Comrade]

Don't try to back out of what you said. You clearly meant that you thought he was not a popular leader,

I never said that part!

and that the people of the North didn't even have a say in his selection.

That part is right. No vote, no referendum, no say. 100% correct.

80% is not "SOME", it is "MOST", and within a "democracy", it is more than enough to clearly state the public will.

Where did you get 80%? Wierd that you just now put that out without a single link or reference to a vote.

What is just clear that you didn't know the facts, relying on your right-wing thinking that it must be so that Ho Chi Minh was evil by definition, and did not have the support of the majority of the Vietnamese people.

What's clear is you have no idea how to backup your continuous tirade. Like that 80%, again. Where the heck is that from? I'd like you to actually prove things before you get too excited.

Because we created a totalitarian state and pitted it against them. Because we were not on the side of freedom. Because we created a situation which forced totalitariansim upon Vietnam.

You remember when South Vietnam actually voted? I think you have it backwards... Ho Chi Minh made North Vietnam a totalitarian state and it was before the USA created it for him. Or made him create it. It's very simple to understand.

You clearly don't know anything about it. FDR and Churchill seriously considered having DeGaul assasinated because he would not comply with the planned liberation of France. I don't need to give specifics,

But you are not able to give specifics. That's becoming obvious.

the whole of his position was that even though France had succumb to the Germans in a mere 6 weeks, had for the most part supported the German and Japanese war efforts thereafter, they were still an equal member of the Allies.

He never said this during WWII because it wasn't true. Quote something?

The man was a pompous asshole, typical of the French.

You sure have a lot of anger at the French! Which is not a bad thing I'll agree.

I'd like to see you get more specific about this 80% figure.

Or if you can't do that, tell us the details behind the assasination plot of Rooselvelt and Churchill to kill the leader of the FREE French.

Without those singulary specific details I'm going to assume you are just too good for us all on this board to bother to explain and suggest you might want to go elsewhere. I'm waiting...

 

[Comrade]

Here's the background on Ho Chi Minh in case Wade gets this far...

http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/ho.htm

Ho Chi Minh
AKA 'Uncle Ho'. Birth name Nguyen Sinh Cung, also called Nguyen Tat Thanh, Nguyen Ai Quoc, and Ly Thuy. Ho Chi Minh translates to 'He Who Enlightens'.

Country: Vietnam.

Cause: Liberation of Vietnam from French colonial rule and unification of North and South Vietnam.

Background: The French begin to take control of Vietnam in the 1860s. The entire country is made a French protectorate in 1883. Under French colonial rule Vietnamese are prohibited from travelling outside their districts without identity papers. Freedom of expression and organisation are restricted. As land is progressively alienated by large landholders, the number of landless peasants grows. Neglect of the education system causes the literacy rate to fall. Vietnamese anticolonial movements being to coalesce early in the 20th Century but are actively suppressed by the French. More background.

Mini biography: Born 19 May 1890 in the village of Kim Lien in Annam, in central Vietnam. His father is a public servant attached to the imperial court.

Ho attends the prestigious National Academy school in Hue but leaves before graduation. He works for a short time as a teacher before travelling to Saigon, where he takes a course in navigation.

1911 - He finds work as a kitchen hand on a French steamer travelling from Saigon to Marseilles.

1919 - After living in London for two years during the First World War Ho moves to France, taking the name Nguyen Ai Quoc (Nguyen the Patriot). He stays in Paris until 1923, working in menial jobs while becoming active in the socialist movement.

During the 1919 Versailles Peace Conference he attempts to present United States President Woodrow Wilson with a proposal for Vietnam's independence, but is turned away. The proposal is never officially acknowledged.

A Vietnemese immigrant to France, a relative nobody poltically, who works in manual labour, couldn't get America's President to align against France.

Which is obvious.

1920 - Ho is a founding member of the French Communist Party when it splits from the Socialist Party in December. He works with other groups of radical expatriates and publishes an anticolonial journal, 'Le Paria' ('The Pariah').

A communist, long ago, 25 years before our post-WWII to support him against France.

1923 - He travels to Moscow for training at the headquarters of the Communist International (Comintern) and takes an active role in the fifth congress of the Comintern, criticising the French Communist Party for not opposing colonialism more vigorously. He also urges the Comintern to actively promote revolution in Asia.

1924 - Ho travels to Guangzhou (Canton) in southern China, a stronghold of the Chinese communists, where he trains Vietnamese exiles in revolutionary techniques.

In 1925 he organises the exiles into the Viet Nam Thanh Nien Cach Menh Dong Chi Hoi (Revolutionary Youth League). Going by the name Ly Thuy, he forms an inner group within the Revolutionary League, the Thanh Nien Cong San Doan (Communist Youth League
- CYL).

The CYL concentrates on the production of an independence journal that is distributed clandestinely inside Vietnam. In 1926 Ho writes 'Duong Cach Menh' ('The Revolutionary Path'), which he uses as a training manual.

1927 - The communists are expelled from Guangzhou in April following a coup by Chinese Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek. Ho finds refuge in the Soviet Union.

As a refugee to the Communist USSR still 20 years before the USA 'pushed him' to become a Communism, hmmm....

1928 - He travels to Brussels and Paris and then Siam (now Thailand), where he spends two years as a representative of the Comintern in Southeast Asia. His followers remain in South China.

1930 - Ho presides over the founding of a unified Indochinese Communist Party (ICP) at a conference of the Thanh Nein in Hong Kong on 3 February. A program of party objectives drafted by Ho is approved by the conference. The objectives include the overthrow of the French; establishment of an independent Vietnam ruled by a peoples' government; nationalisation of the economy and cancellation of public debts; land reform; the introduction of an eight-hour work day; and education for all.

Meanwhile, the worldwide economic depression sparked by the collapse of New York stock exchange in October 1929 begins to bite in Vietnam. Salaries fall by up to 50%, unemployment rises to about 33%, and strikes increase. The ICP starts organising party cells, trade unions and peasant associations throughout the neighbouring provinces of Nghe An and Ha Tinh in central Vietnam. Peasant demonstrators in the provinces begin to demand reform. When their demands are ignored riots break out. Peasants seize control of some districts and, with the aid of ICP organisers, form local village associations called "soviets".

In September 1930 the French respond, sending in Foreign Legion troops to suppress the rebellion. More than 1,000 suspected communists and rebels are arrested. Four hundred are given long prison sentences. Eighty, including some party leaders, are executed. Ho is condemned in absentia to death. He seeks refuge in Hong Kong and again operates as a representative of the Comintern in Southeast Asia.

By 1932 there are more than 10,000 political prisoners held in Vietnam's jails.

1931 - Ho is arrested in Hong Kong by the British police during a crackdown on political revolutionaries. He remains in prison until 1932. On his release he travels to Moscow, where will spend much of the next seven years studying and teaching at the Lenin Institute.

15 years before when I hear the US forced him to align with Communists he was teaching at the Lenin Institute.

8 - Ho returns to China and serves as an adviser to the Chinese communist armed forces during the Second Sino-Japanese War.

More than 5 years before the USA 'forced him' to be a communist leader, he's fighting in a communist backed army.

1939 - In August, on the eve of the Second World War, Germany and the Soviet Union sign a nonaggression pact. The French Government immediately bans the French Communist Party then outlaws all Vietnamese political parties, including the ICP, and cracks down on political activities. The ICP responds by focusing its operations on rural areas, where the French hold less sway.

The Second World War breaks out on 1 September when Germany invades Poland. The fall of France to German forces comes soon after.

1940 - Early in the year, Ho returns to southern China, where he reestablishes contact with the ICP and begins to plan. Ho and his lieutenants Vo Nguyen Giap and Pham Van Dong see the defeat of the French by the Germans as an opportunity to free Vietnam from the French regime. He begins to use the name Ho Chi Minh (He Who Enlightens).

On 22 September Japanese troops invade Vietnam, heading south from territory they occupy in China. The French quickly negotiate a cease-fire that allows their colonial administration to remain during the Japanese rule.

1941 - In January Ho enters Vietnam for the first time in 30 years and organises the Vietnam Doc Lap Dong Minh Hoi (League for the Independence of Vietnam), or Viet Minh. A liberation zone is established near the border with China from which the Viet Min work to muster the discontent of urban nationalists and the rural poor into a unified movement for the liberation of Vietnam.

August, while in southern China to meet with Chinese Communist Party officials, Ho is arrested by the Chinese nationalist government and imprisoned for two years.

Note he's undermining the non-communist faction in China we support now.

1944 - In September Ho is allowed to return to Vietnam with a guerilla force of 18 men trained and armed by the Chinese. He vetoes an ICP plan for a general uprising but approves a propaganda campaign.

ICP - Indochinese Communist Party.

1945 - In January, with the Second World War drawing to a close, Ho travels to southern China to meet with US and Free French forces stationed there. However, his attempts to negotiate official recognition of the Vietnamese independence movement meet with little success.

Anyone surprised why he was rejected?

The power balance in Vietnam takes a dramatic turn on 9 March when the Japanese disarm the French forces and seize full administrative control of the country. The 1883 treaty establishing Indochina as a French protectorate is revoked and Vietnam is declared independent under Japanese tutelage. The ICP sees its opportunity and begins to plan for a general uprising.

Spreading gradually south from the existing liberated zone, an ICP-led United Front has by June established a provisional government, headed by Ho, over an area occupied by about one million people. Inside the liberated zone, French-owned and communal land is redistributed to the poor
Universal suffrage is declared and democratic freedoms are introduced.

Freedom to join for a one party state but no ownership rights.

Democractic freedoms never did catch on in the 'liberated' regime of Ho Chi Minh as we understand them.

Meanwhile, the ICP steps up its activities in the country's south. 'Salvation associations' attract thousands. In Saigon, membership of a communist youth organisation reaches 200,000, while the Vietnam Trade Union Federation numbers 100,000 members in 300 unions.

Is that your 80%?

On 6 August the US drops an atomic bomb on Hiroshima in Japan. Nagasaki is bombed on 8 August. On 13 August the ICP issues its order for a general uprising. Ho is elected head of a National Liberation Committee created to serve as a provisional government. On 17 August he appeals to the Vietnamese people to rise in revolution. The Viet Minh take control of Hanoi the same day. Saigon falls on 25 August.

On 28 August the Viet Minh announce the formation of the provisional government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV - North Vietnam) with Ho as president and minister of foreign affairs. Ho will remain as president of the DRV until his death in 1969.

Single party and all that. Like the USA, lol!

Japan formally surrenders on 2 September 1945. The same day, half a million people gather in Hanoi to hear Ho read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence, based on the American Declaration of Independence and the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen. However, the situation remains volatile.

If you want to think that what he did here was to establish a Liberal Democracy, let's recall again how that turned out, even well after taking complete control of all of his people.

Ho Chi Minh was an active communist revolutionary for 25 years up to this point. He established a Communist state during his rule and going forward from his total victory.

America never pushed him to the Communist totatarian ideology, that's obvious now.

Anything else now?

 

[freeandfun1]

I for one thank you for "correcting" some of my historical understanding of Ho. Granted, I knew he had turned to communism WAY before the US got involved in Indo-China, but I didn't realize it went as far back as what you have shown.

I guess the books I have read on him, as is typical in America, were too slanted towards him being a Patriot. I have read a LOT, but I screwed the pooch on this one..... :scratch:

 

[8236]

As long as the United States is perceived by most of the people in the world as a nation of terror with its foreign and military policies. We are in a no win situation were we will win military battles while losing the war. The double standards in the application of our foreign and military policies have created more enemies than allies in the war on terror. Our financial and military support of the State of Israel is one of the clearest examples of this. It is the policies and actions of the United States and Israel that has divided the world, us verses them. Even in the nations whose governments support the United States war in Iraq the majority of people in these nations do not.

The United States war in Iraq is seen as one of the greatest modern day military mistakes by most people in the world lowering the bar to a preemptive unilateral war of choice. Between the military actions of the United States and the State of Israel the rest of people in the world are united like never before against us. If the people in the world were surveyed and the question whether Saddam or Bush was or is the biggest threat to global peace and security, Bush would win. As long as the American people deny the realities to the perception of the rest of the people around the world things in America will only get worst.

By no means was Saddam a good leader of Iraq but it was the United States policies and support of Saddam during his worst years that enabled him to become the tyrant he became. It is the United States government?s track record in the support of tyrants such as the Shaw of Iran, Saddam, Marcos of the Philippines a list too long to mention that undermines our credibility with the people around the world.

Reading things like this from someone who is obviously American, gives me, and returns to me: Faith in humanity. It re-affirms to me the belief that Not ALL Americans are assholes. I would give you the congressional medal of honour.

 

[8236]

That's it exactly. A perception. An ignorant perception. An ignorant perspective which belies an willful ignorance of history and a pathetic lack of gratitude. The truth is, most of the world owes us a debt for protecting them from either Nazi, or Communist tyranny. How easy it is to forget. How easy it is for politicians to pander to the base emotion of envy.

You owe most of the world for providing you with the morons that now inhabit your country.

 

[8236]

I'm not going to sit and pretend that the US hasn't made mistakes. We have. We will again. But the mistakes we've made are borne out of caring about the world and trying to do the right thing. Unlike, say, Quadaffi, Saddam, Pol Pot, Hitler, et al.

So, if the world is going to vilify us for our mistakes made in an effort to help and protect the world, fine. At least they are alive to spew their stupidity.

And for that I take my bow as a representative of Uncle Sam.

HAHAHAHAHA DO NOT MAKE ME LAUGH. CARING FOR THE WALLET?

 

[8236]

How many supported war with Germany before WWII?

We have LEADERS because sometimes, somebody, has to do things that are UNPOPULAR. It DOES NOT make those actions wrong.

What a bullshit comparison.