Why not the Fair Tax?

[ThisIsMe]

Then there is no reason to change.

Except you’d be more in control of your finances. You could choose to spend less and save more, and could do that with a larger income.

 

[Anathema]

I’m not a fan of the fair tax. In that system I’m driving a 15 year old car, surviving on bread and water, have no entertainment options and a small, empty house. Why? Because in such a system I would be refusing to spend any more money that absolutely necessary to minimize my tax burden.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Read the Bills themselves. They're a joke. They raise taxes on lower incomes and let the upper classes off free.

Why should my new refrigerator be taxed 25% while Warren Buffet's stock purchases and dividends are tax free? It's a ridiculous scam. People who have to spend all of their incomes to survive are punished while a few parasites pay essentially nothing.

Why should my new refrigerator be taxed 25% while Warren Buffet's stock purchases and dividends are tax free?

Because instead of Warren buffet finding way to shield his taxes and lower his exposure to minimize the taxes he pays, when he wants to build a new building for his business, or wants to buy a new rolls Royce, or a new plane, or a new mansion, or take a trip to Greece, or the extravagant lifestyle he lives, he and any other billionaire would have to pay the 23% tax on it.

Rich people buy bigger toys…and they will be forced to pay for it.

As far as shifting the taxes to lower income people, that is where the prebate comes in, right? All of your basic needs are met before a penny of tax is paid, at least what the plan says…

Now, I will agree that it could be a bigger burden on lower income in the fact that 23% of purchases is a bigger feat for poorer people than it is for rich people. I admit i hadn’t thought of that. But again, doesn’t the prebate offset that?

Would revenue not increase due to rich people not being able to shield their money? It wouldn’t matter what Swiss bank account they had, all purchases would be subject to the fair tax

 

[Lesh]

Otherwise known as a consumption tax.

From the Neal Boortz radio show, this is broken down into 5 parts but each part is pretty short:

Part 1:



Part 2:



Part 3:



Part 4:



Part 5:



And here’s another talk he had on it that gives more context:

Neal Boortz FAIRtax vs Republican Tax Plan

So, the key points are:

Eliminates all federal taxation from your check.

You get to keep 100% of your earnings (state taxes are addressed in the presentation as well)

Eliminates all corporate taxes, which will create an economic boom as companies all over the world will want to move their headquarters to America to take advantage of being able to operate tax free.

There is no longer a need to file taxes, so there is no longer a need for an IRS.

Not a single penny of the fair tax is paid until your very basic needs are met (housing, food, etc), this is done in the form of a prebate that the government sends you at the beginning of each month.

How it’s done:

A 20 million dollar study was done on the fair tax, and the result was, they found out that, depending on the product, from start to finish, the entire process from raw material to finished product, there is between 18% and 25% in taxes paid from manufacturers and suppliers that adds to the cost of the product.

The proposal is tax neutral, which means the consumer will pay no more for a product than they did before.

The idea is to eliminate those taxes, which will lower the cost of goods and services, but charge a 23% sales tax on everything you buy.

Here’s how it works:

The example given was a $100 toaster. They estimate the taxes paid in the process of manufacturing that toaster was 23%, or, $23 out of $100. So, if you take those taxes out of the process, the taxes that the makers would have to pay in the process of making that toaster, it would lower the cost of the toaster to $77. At the point of sale, a $23 tax is charged for that toaster.

$77 goes to the retailer and $23 goes to the government. The retailer gets paid, and the customer is still paying $100 for that toaster…the same as they did before. All of this is from you being able to keep 100% of your income, and getting a prebate so all your basic needs are paid for.

*****
My comments are…YOU could control the amount of tax you pay dependent on how much you buy/consume, those who buy more expensive things (rich people) pay more in taxes.

So, what is wrong with this plan? Where does it fail? Seems like a solid idea to me…thoughts?

Why not?

Because there’s nothing “fair” about it

It’s a huge tax cut for the wealthy and a huge tax INCREASE on everyone else.

And it will likely raise the debt not lower it

 

[ThisIsMe]

Yes, they are still paying $100 for the toaster. But they receive all of the gross salary. So they bring more money home.

If you make $10 an hour, and work a 40 hour week, your gross pay is $400.
Under the current clusterfuck of a tax system, you will likely pay 25% in taxes, So you bring home $300 a week.
Under the Fair Tax, you would receive $400. And your taxes would be paid with a consumption tax on what you spend.

Also, the taxes are accessed on all new goods and services. So buying a used car is exempt.

Forgot about that. Taxes are collected only one time on purchases.

Honestly though, now that I’m discussing it…it does make me wonder how it would affect revenue. The government would be losing all income tax from people and companies, no more sales tax on used items, no social security or Medicare tax..it is starting to make me wonder if the consumption tax would be able to replace all of that

Not to go back on my original argument but I only brought this up because I was curious about what other people thought of it.

I’m seeing that most people think it’s a bad idea, which is fair (no pun intended)

 

[ThisIsMe]

The OP conflates the "Fair Tax" typically referring to a "Flat Tax" across all income levels with a "Value Added Tax".

We buy a toaster every 10-years or so, a car every 7 or 8 years, one or two houses, the OP has no clue how the math doesn't work.

The US 2024 Federal Budget is $7.3T and current income is about $5T, so show us how the OP's proposal covers $7.3T.

I’m just asking a question after watching some videos.


Also, it’s not a flat tax, a flat tax is a flat INCOME TAX rate, the fair tax is a consumption tax.

The US 2024 Federal Budget is $7.3T and current income is about $5T, so show us how the OP's proposal covers $7.3T.

It’s not “my” proposal, it’s a proposal from a congressman that has the endorsement of a radio host.

I don’t know if it would work, which is why i asked the question here

 

[Concerned American]

Forgot about that. Taxes are collected only one time on purchases.

Honestly though, now that I’m discussing it…it does make me wonder how it would affect revenue. The government would be losing all income tax from people and companies, no more sales tax on used items, no social security or Medicare tax..it is starting to make me wonder if the consumption tax would be able to replace all of that

Not to go back on my original argument but I only brought this up because I was curious about what other people thought of it.

I’m seeing that most people think it’s a bad idea, which is fair (no pun intended)

I think it would lead to a gigantic black market as well.

 

[BluesLegend]

If prices don't increase and I get to keep all my income, how does the government raise any revenue?

That's why it will never happen, it gives the people control over how much money government can take.

 

[BluesLegend]

I think it would lead to a gigantic black market as well.

If we gave government a consumption tax, soon after we'd have the income tax back plus the consumption tax and we'd be paying even more than before. Government has a bottomless thirst for tax increases.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

They've been pushing this idea for 25 years. It's never happening.

 

[ThisIsMe]

To cover $7.3T in spending a year taxpayers would need to cover an average $73,000 each. Totally impractical.
Plus, every tax dollar would come from the point of sale instead of withholding, so there is a serious opportunity for sellers scamming the tax revenue.

Dumb idea. Unless you own a store.

To cover $7.3T in spending a year taxpayers would need to cover an average $73,000 each. Totally impractical.

Well, kind of, remember, rich people buy bigger toys. Much of the income would come from purchases by companies. I don’t know about you, but I look around and I see all these factories constantly under construction. Every time they hire a contractor, or buy a new piece of machinery, that’s hit with the 23% tax.

The only revenue lost would be the taxes paid as part of the manufacturing process, which would lower the tax burden for the company, and pass those taxes on to the end consumer, who would end up paying the same amount as before.

But, corporations could also keep all of their profits, no taxes, but they would be subject to 23% every time they used a service or bought new equipment

Would that not cover the revenue needs of the country? I don’t know, I wouldn’t be able to calculate that.

 

[ThisIsMe]

And this fucks over the poor. Which is why the rich are telling you it's a "fair tax"

It's about as fair as person being born into a poor family with no legs, no arms, cancer in the head and HIV/AIDS in their blood and another being born healthy in a rich family.

Ok, if people are given a prebate, that would help offset the cost of basic needs, now, any extra purchases would be more difficult for poor people, I can see that, however, wouldn’t the boom in business create a scenario where companies could hire more people and pay higher wages?

 

[ThisIsMe]

How would the Fair Tax know who is being paid under the table? (It can't, unless the US goes cashless and we all get chips that transfer money)

So do you want the government's AI tracking every dollar we "spend" and takes the (25% ???) tax out automatically from your bank account. What happens if you run out of money and need food?

It wouldn’t matter if people were paid under the table, because income tax would cease to exist. You’ll would be taxed on goods and services…which nobody could escape.

 

[ThisIsMe]

I've done plenty. It's a scam.

Let's say I'm a poor dude and I spend 100% of my wages. And I'm paying 20% sales tax on that. That's 20% of all I earn.

Imagine a rich dude, he's spending 1% of all his wages, so he's spend 0.2% of what he earns on taxes.

Now, imagine I earn $50,000 a year. I pay 10% sales tax and I pay 20% tax on my wages.

That's me paying $10,000 a year on income tax and $4,000 a year on sales tax.
If it were 20% on sales tax that's me paying $10,000 a year.

Now, imagine I earn $10 million a year and I spend say $200,000 a year.

So, with income tax at 20% I'd be paying $2 million a year. For my $200,000 I'd be paying $20,000. That's me being taxed $2,020,000

If it were 20% sales tax, that's him paying $40,000 a year.

Which would you rather pay? $2,020,000 or $40,000. Fuck yeah I'd pay the lower amount.

Now, we could do many, many different calculations for it. Obviously I just pulled figures out of the air.

The govt is going to want to bring in X amount in taxes.

If rich dude is paying $40,000 instead of $2,020,000, then the government needs to find that money.

Take a look at the UK right now. The Tories (conservatives) decided to not give the local councils as much money as they used to get. The councils are in charge of things like garbage collection, maintaining the roads, plenty of local things.

In London they're increasing how much it costs to drive on the roads, they're increase all kinds of things so poor people end up paying more to cover the shortfall.

Basically what would happen is that sales tax suddenly rises from 20% to 40% and poor people are fucking screwed.

If you make 10 million per year, I’d say your yearly expenses would be more than 200,000. Remember, how much of that 10 million per year is being shielded from taxes based on loopholes, deductions..etc. The left complains that Buffet only pays a 17% tax on his “income”…so, in that case, he’s cheating the government out on taxes, right?

In the case of your guy who makes 10 million, it doesn’t matter that he makes 10 million, every time he pays a bill, 23%, lets say he has an eye on that new $300,000 Ferrari..that’s $70,000 in taxes paid…or how about that 500 million dollar yacht that bezos just bought…that’s 115 million in taxes paid on it.

I’m not saying it’s perfect because I don’t know, but..it seems like this would create a tax that cant be shielded by offshore bank accounts or loopholes in the tax code, right?

 

[Concerned American]

In the case of your guy who makes 10 million, it doesn’t matter that he makes 10 million, every time he pays a bill, 23%, lets say he has an eye on that new $300,000 Ferrari..that’s $70,000 in taxes paid…or how about that 500 million dollar yacht that bezos just bought…that’s 115 million in taxes paid on it.

You are failing to take into account that these millionaires are just going to another country to make their purchases. They already escape to tax havens--they have the means to avoid taxes.

 

[ThisIsMe]

They've been pushing this idea for 25 years. It's never happening.

Oh, no doubt it will never happen, I’m just having a discussion on why or why it wouldn’t work

 

[ThisIsMe]

You are failing to take into account that these millionaires are just going to another country to make their purchases. They already escape to tax havens--they have the means to avoid taxes.

Ok, so close that loophole. Tell them if you want to make a purchase overseas, that’s fine, but you’ll pay that countries taxes, plus the 23% US tax. I mean, THAT should make the left extremely happy, because they’d be able to really stick it to the rich guy.

 

[ThisIsMe]

I’m not a fan of the fair tax. In that system I’m driving a 15 year old car, surviving on bread and water, have no entertainment options and a small, empty house. Why? Because in such a system I would be refusing to spend any more money that absolutely necessary to minimize my tax burden.

But you’d have more money in your bank because of zero taxes being withheld.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Why not?

Because there’s nothing “fair” about it

It’s a huge tax cut for the wealthy and a huge tax INCREASE on everyone else.

And it will likely raise the debt not lower it

Wouldn’t it prevent rich people from shielding their money?

 

[Lesh]

Wouldn’t it prevent rich people from shielding their money?

Would it?