CDZ Why is the rest of the world a $hithole?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by jwoodie, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. night_son
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    night_son Gold Member

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    And the West had every right to stamp out Bolshevism with prejudice, based on the ideology from which Lenin derived Bolshevism. You argue in favor of the same political philosophies which led to the 1889 French Revolution--during which by the way, revolutionary loyalists were murdered by their own party members same as the so-called enemy Royalists and supporters of the Church and nobility. Once again, under Lenin, loyal communist revolutionaries--many of whom had fought for Lenin, were slaughtered at his command along with anti-revolutionaries. And on and on the pile of Marxist derived philosophical mass-murder bones continued and continues to grow through Cambodia, North Vietnam and on, and on.

    What should have happened immediately post WWII is, is the bomb should have been used to bring Stalinist Russia to her knees, had we been able to manufacture enough of them--although the mere threat, post Hiroshima and Nagasaki could have been sufficient to achieving the task. Afterward, we should have installed a constitutional democracy in Russia post Soviet downfall, when the Russian people were starved for the same freedom from years of world war oppression as we Americans. The great historical mistake on our part was to dance with one devil in order to crush another, smaller one.

    Hegelian, and Voltarian derived, atheist dominated, Marxist led ideologies are indeed the most lethal ideological viruses to ever infect the human mind--your mind, apparently--included. Or perhaps, you are simply roleplaying the part. Belief is very difficult to achieve in the willingness of so obviously and intelligent individual such as yourself, in a political and religious--ethos really--which tends to not only murder the very working class it promises to liberate, but also tens of thousands and more of its own fanatic adherents. Marxism is the Russian Roulette of human political ideologies. No one can stop you or anyone else from spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger. What we can and shall always prevent, however, is the rise of Marxism or its derivative ideologies to the forefront of American governing politics. Whatever the cost, and for all of our future generations.
     
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  2. Tehon
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    Tehon Gold Member

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    What exactly are you disputing?

    The West invaded Russia. That is part of the historical record.
    Battle of Tulgas - Wikipedia
     
  3. Tehon
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    Tehon Gold Member

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    No, the West has no right to stamp it out. The reorganization of a particular society is a right reserved for the people in the given society. That is an ideal expressed in our own declaration of independence. A people that express that ideal and use it for their own justification have no right to deny it to others.

    Is Marx's idea dangerous? Of course it is, it's revolutionary. But that alone does not negate the specifics of the idea. All revolutionary ideas are fraught with danger. If you want to discuss the dangers of it then we have to get beyond platitudes and discuss the idea in the particular.

    As for Lenin, we can say he was overly ambitious and that certainly led to a lot of needless suffering. At the end of this post I will leave a quote from Marx that puts my assertion into perspective.

    You claim Lenin, and by implication Marx, was responsible for the deaths of his comrades in the Russian Civil War, but let's put the civil war into the proper perspective. The War was premeditated by social upheaval. In context no different than the American Civil War which pitted brother against brother. Do we say that the American Civil War was not a necessary battle in the fight for social justice? Should we have condemned the slaves to continued abuses by the southern states because the idea of emancipation was a dangerous upheaval of social norms in those States?

    5. Development of the Productive Forces as a Material Premise of Communism]
    This “alienation” (to use a term which will be comprehensible to the philosophers) can, of course, only be abolished given two practical premises. For it to become an “intolerable” power, i.e. a power against which men make a revolution, it must necessarily have rendered the great mass of humanity “propertyless,” and produced, at the same time, the contradiction of an existing world of wealth and culture, both of which conditions presuppose a great increase in productive power, a high degree of its development. And, on the other hand, this development of productive forces (which itself implies the actual empirical existence of men in their world-historical, instead of local, being) is an absolutely necessary practical premise because without it want is merely made general, and with destitution the struggle for necessities and all the old filthy business would necessarily be reproduced; and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the “propertyless” mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones. Without this, (1) communism could only exist as a local event; (2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and (3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism. Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples “all at once” and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life – presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a “world-historical” existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history.

    Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.
    The German Ideology
     
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  4. night_son
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    night_son Gold Member

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    You're glossing over the democide or murder by their own government of tens of millions of citizens who died under Marxism realized as real world political practice, as "suffering".
     
  5. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Your view that the U.S. is the root of all evil in the world.
     
  6. Tilly
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    Tilly Platinum Member

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    He took the time to respond to your question.
    Why so rude (in the CDZ) ?
     
  7. Tehon
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    Tehon Gold Member

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    I don't believe I am glossing over anything nor do I believe the Soviet Union was a realization of Marxism.

    Your solution would have been to drop as many nuclear warheads on them as necessary to bring them to their knees. Your concern for Russian citizens is duly noted.
     
  8. Tehon
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    Tehon Gold Member

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    I can't help you then. I think you are mischaracterizing my position.
     
  9. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    How so? (Please be specific.)
     
  10. Dan Stubbs
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    Dan Stubbs FORGET ---- HELL Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Ok to understand the reasons: It takes bribes to the Crooked Officials to start any business. You have to deal with your suppliers who deliver good products in good shape. There is a lot of locals who will expect price breaks. If you look at the theft rate you just about have to live in your place of business. You have a large area of labor to pick to work in. Crime is not punished as much here. You can live cheap if you group rent. You can send money home from here to your real home. The jobs here pay better then at home. Its a good place to hide from the law back home. And the last is that this is where the Leader of the gang has told you to be and drugs are sold here at a better price than back home.
     

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