Why is green policy and renewable energy necessary?

[Old Rocks]

How do you figure that? What is your line of thought? How are they giving it to the ordinary citizen if I might ask? I am curious to know which big corporations are taking away control to give to the ordinary citizen. How is this done?

I think you are confused.

Green energy can be made at home by ordinary citizens.

This is what the energy companies are most afraid of.

No I am not confused I asked a question. First let us take a look at the reality of right now today. Can the average citizen make their own energy when many cannot afford to even make a house payments?

How much did that 7,000 sq ft house in your OP cost to fit with reen technology?

Don't think for a moment I do not support people being free of mega conglomerates that reward the rich and strip the poor.

No, you just support all the policies that would keep the current conditions as they are.

If I had my preferences I would not give them one penny to keep the electric line coming to the house here.

Then why do you fight every option that would make that a reality?

Facts are though we do not have the means to be fully independent of the electric monster without burning lots of gas for the generator.

Depends totally on where you are.

My mining operation was setup to run on hydraulics not electricity.

Mining what?

The cost savings were into hundreds of thousands of dollars to the operation from the very beginning. It was the the first fully hydraulic mine operation in the US that I know of from the feasibility study before starting the processing portion of the mine.

Are you doing this?

V. Zh. Arens1 and A. S. Khrulev1

(1) Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, Moscow, Russia


Abstract The mining-and-geological conditions are analyzed for the occurrence conditions of gold placers, where the hydraulic borehole mining is expedient. The empirical dependences are established for calculating the basic parameters of hydraulic mining through the boreholes drilled in carrying out the experimental-industrial tests. The prototypes of hydraulic mining equipment are designed and tested. The trends are determined for the increase in efficiency of hydraulic borehole mining from thawed and frozen placers of different thickness.

OK, you have me hooked. Hydraulic mining of what, in what manner?

Hydraulics as in machinery? Hydraulics as in Giants?

I am a millwright by trade and have dealt with the hydraullics in construction, saw mills, and steel mills. The latter being far more sophisticated than the former.

 

[Old Rocks]

Hey, I'm a big enough man to admit when I didn't know something... unlike you little girl.

I'd never heard of anything that expired Sulfur Dioxide before, because I don't waste my time worshiping college professors on tenure, and pretending I'm an authority.

Of course, this doesn't invalidate any of my other dissection of your insane rantings either.

Oh, come on, asshole, you have already proven that you know nothing about atmospheric physics.

That you know nothing about the physics of GHGs and that you do not intend to learn anything about them. Much easier to repeat the mouthings of an addicted radio jock.

 

[Big Fitz]

And you still can't get past a fundamental blockade:

It's NOT man's fault.
There is no need for draconian laws.
Mankind cannot control the climate.
There is no need for "green" energy.

Note the terms. Need for. Cannot Control. No Need.

Do you understand what that means?

Means, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, all your political hullabullshit is for naught. The planet's going to do what it's going to do. We are best served by using the BEST forms of energy and technology out there which is created by western civilization in a capitalist system run on Fossil Fuels and Nuclear power.

Your Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine will not be able to compete for the next century, if ever. Besides, if implemented the consequences created by these inefficient, expensive and unreliable forms of energy would destroy this nation's economy faster than P-BO can with a federal budget.... which has been 12 months.

I don't give a flying fuck if Ozone molecules fluoresce blue in the presence of hamsters. None of the hyperventilation you desire is neccessary.

Fucking deal nutbag.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

My sister wanted to do solar for her place, but it cost 12,000. It seems the expense is not the solar cells, not cheap, but the expense of building it so it complies with code. And the expensive equipment part is the inverter that converts it to AC when it gets into the house. Solar being DC.

And I don't know if it would be that much of a good deal. Do we get enough sunlight here in Portland Or to make a 12k investment into solar cells a good investment? Maybe in Pheonix.... Portland I am not so sure. PGE gets most of its power off the dams on the Clackamas. PPL, I think they have to buy theirs off of BPA. (Way back when I bought PPL stock, but it got bought out by some scottish firm who sold off their generating assets. It is now owned by some outfit in Portugal of all places.)

 

[Toronado3800]

And you still can't get past a fundamental blockade:

It's NOT man's fault.
There is no need for draconian laws.
Mankind cannot control the climate.
There is no need for "green" energy.

I disagree.

'Black Tuesday' led to changes in air quality here - STLtoday.com

By Tim O'Neil
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
11/29/2009

ST. LOUIS -- City dwellers woke up on Nov. 28, 1939, in a thick fog of acrid coal smoke. Suburbanites heading to work saw a low dome of darkness covering neighborhoods east of Kingshighway.

In a streetcar downtown at 8 a.m., a commuter told the driver, "Let me off at 13th and Washington — if you can find it." Motorists drove slowly with headlights on. Streetlights, still on, made ghostly glows.

The day became infamous as Black Tuesday, the worst of many smoke-choked days in what was to be St. Louis' smokiest cold-weather season. The city already was known for the nation's filthiest air, worse even than Pittsburgh's.

The reason was the area's reliance on cheap, dirty, high-sulfur "soft" coal dug from the hills and hollows across the Mississippi River in Illinois. St. Louis' first anti-smoke ordinance dated to 1867. But as the city grew in population and industry, the smoke kept getting worse.

Obviously there is a need for "green" energy. Or research into green energy. Imagine going to a wind/water/nuclear based energy system for our automobiles where we only used oil for plastics and lubrication. even ignoring the environmental benefits I'd invest billions in it just to kill the demand for middle eastern oil.

Equally obviously I can't demand automobiles next year all get 100mpg and have no immediate emissions. Just won't happen. Will cost us more than the benefits. So I do believe there is room in the middle for debate.

 

[Old Rocks]

My sister wanted to do solar for her place, but it cost 12,000. It seems the expense is not the solar cells, not cheap, but the expense of building it so it complies with code. And the expensive equipment part is the inverter that converts it to AC when it gets into the house. Solar being DC.

And I don't know if it would be that much of a good deal. Do we get enough sunlight here in Portland Or to make a 12k investment into solar cells a good investment? Maybe in Pheonix.... Portland I am not so sure. PGE gets most of its power off the dams on the Clackamas. PPL, I think they have to buy theirs off of BPA. (Way back when I bought PPL stock, but it got bought out by some scottish firm who sold off their generating assets. It is now owned by some outfit in Portugal of all places.)

At present, the choice is between expensive silicon, up to 21% efficient, and thin film, up to 15% efficient. If you read the article concerning the Qdots produced here in Oregon, Voxtel, you would note that they quote a figure of up to 40% for the Qdot cells. Many scientists in this field are stating possible efficiences of 60% to 80%.

But this is a very new technology, and needs a boost here at home. In Germany and China, they are putting money into it right now. We are not.

Invertors are expensive, though far less so than they used to be. And we will see the same effect there as we have seen in the flat screen tv's as the demand increases.

The Coming Disruption in the PV Inverter Market | Green Light:Greentech Media

As far as the suitibility for Portland, Oregon, is concerned, we are in a place where the thin film technology is much more suitiable. For it will convert even the beam of a flashlight into a bit of juise, whereas the silicon has a cutoff point where cloudiness will result in no juice at all.

 

[Big Fitz]

And you still can't get past a fundamental blockade:

It's NOT man's fault.
There is no need for draconian laws.
Mankind cannot control the climate.
There is no need for "green" energy.

I disagree.

'Black Tuesday' led to changes in air quality here - STLtoday.com

By Tim O'Neil
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
11/29/2009

ST. LOUIS -- City dwellers woke up on Nov. 28, 1939, in a thick fog of acrid coal smoke. Suburbanites heading to work saw a low dome of darkness covering neighborhoods east of Kingshighway.

In a streetcar downtown at 8 a.m., a commuter told the driver, "Let me off at 13th and Washington — if you can find it." Motorists drove slowly with headlights on. Streetlights, still on, made ghostly glows.

The day became infamous as Black Tuesday, the worst of many smoke-choked days in what was to be St. Louis' smokiest cold-weather season. The city already was known for the nation's filthiest air, worse even than Pittsburgh's.

The reason was the area's reliance on cheap, dirty, high-sulfur "soft" coal dug from the hills and hollows across the Mississippi River in Illinois. St. Louis' first anti-smoke ordinance dated to 1867. But as the city grew in population and industry, the smoke kept getting worse.

Obviously there is a need for "green" energy. Or research into green energy. Imagine going to a wind/water/nuclear based energy system for our automobiles where we only used oil for plastics and lubrication. even ignoring the environmental benefits I'd invest billions in it just to kill the demand for middle eastern oil.

Equally obviously I can't demand automobiles next year all get 100mpg and have no immediate emissions. Just won't happen. Will cost us more than the benefits. So I do believe there is room in the middle for debate.

An 80 year old environmental/pollution event is evidence we need to use poor alternatives? Why not cite one of the many times the Cayahuga river, among many which caught on fire?

There is a point when cost effectiveness factors in. Current green energies cannot compete equally on the best forms of energy production currently in existence. Till we can find an alternative that can exceed it's power production, we are foolish to change.

Which is the point of this whole thread really. The change is unnecessary for the reasons are false dichotomies created for political hacks and oppression.

 

[Toro]

A thought occurred to me. What possible reason is there to go green? It used to mean that you believed in preventing hunting, farming and fishing depletion, which still are considered rational points of view. It dealt with things like pollution control like stopping 'love canals' and acid rain. But now... really. What does this even represent?

Consider now that Climate Change/Anthropogenic Global Warming has been shown to be the result of statistical manipulation by frauds and political opportunists, doesn't this kind of invalidate 95% of the reason for any push to be 'green'?

Oh sure, you have idiots out there who still believe we're going to run out of oil next week (set your always receding point of depletion to wherever) but find after find keeps proving them wrong too. Peak oilers just can't seem to accept that a bumblebee can fly despite why it shouldn't be able to according to their understanding.

So really, what sane person actually believes that there are any benefits to going green? All I can see is that it is social engineering for the sake of centralized power over people's lives and to shove society on to inefficient and less successful technology than what currently exists. All this based on the skeleton of the corpse of rational conservation policy that was long abandoned in the 1960's for this current radicalism.

Plus aren't these the same kind of people who believe that the world is overcrowded (utter crap) and we should kill off a few billion 'just to keep the balance'? Balance of what, we don't really know as we've shown even now we have lots of excess capacity to produce food, with the technology to allow even more people to live well on this world.

So really. Why bother going green?

Because even if you don't believe in Global Warming, oil is a dirty pollutant (would you live right next to a refiner?), and we're sending trillions of dollars to people who want to kill us.

 

[Big Fitz]

(would you live right next to a refiner?),

I live within 20 miles of one. Doesn't bother me one bit. Would I move next door? Maybe out of earshot and blast range, sure. But they zone that kinda stuff.

I wouldn't live within ear/eye shot of a windmill farm though. No friggen way.

we're sending trillions of dollars to people who want to kill us.

Canada and Mexico want to kill us? They supply us with most of our oil. I never knew Canadians were so mad at us for stealing hockey teams!

 

[Old Rocks]

And you still can't get past a fundamental blockade:

It's NOT man's fault.

Total utter bullshit. It has been shown by isotopal studies as far back as 1957, Scripps Oceanographic Institute, that the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is the direct result of burning fossil fuels.

There is no need for draconian laws.

Sure, just deal with the Draconian results.

Mankind cannot control the climate.

Again, utter bullshit. We already are, in a very dismal way.

There is no need for "green" energy.

There is no need for brains.

Note the terms. Need for. Cannot Control. No Need.

Do you understand what that means?

Yes, I do. It means that you are a hopeless idiot. It means that you will never accept reality that does not agree with your idea of "the way things ought to be".

Means, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, all your political hullabullshit is for naught.

What the hell does politics have to do with the fact that the ice caps and glaciers are melting?

The planet's going to do what it's going to do. We are best served by using the BEST forms of energy and technology out there which is created by western civilization in a capitalist system run on Fossil Fuels and Nuclear power.

If people like you are stupid enough to hitch the capitalist system to fossil fuels, then it and you will die in this century.

Your Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine will not be able to compete for the next century, if ever. Besides, if implemented the consequences created by these inefficient, expensive and unreliable forms of energy would destroy this nation's economy faster than P-BO can with a federal budget.... which has been 12 months.

I don't give a flying fuck if Ozone molecules fluoresce blue in the presence of hamsters. None of the hyperventilation you desire is neccessary.

Fucking deal nutbag.

You are a fool, and always will be.

The effects of the use of fossil fuels are evident all around us now. No scientific society in the world denies this. Only fools blindly dittoing the mouthings of a junkie radio jock.

 

[Oddball]

ALL KNEEL AND GENUFLECT!!

 

[RodISHI]

Old Rocks: No, you just support all the policies that would keep the current conditions as they are. Answer. Prove your assertion.

RodISHI: If I had my preferences I would not give them one penny to keep the electric line coming to the house here.

Old Rocks: Then why do you fight every option that would make that a reality? Answer. Again prove your assertion.

RodISHI: Facts are though we do not have the means to be fully independent of the electric monster without burning lots of gas for the generator.

Old Rocks: Depends totally on where you are. Response. Yes it does.

RodISHI: My mining operation was setup to run on hydraulics not electricity.

Old Rocks: Mining what? Answer. Glacial till sand and gravel

RodISHI: The cost savings were into hundreds of thousands of dollars to the operation from the very beginning. It was the the first fully hydraulic mine operation in the US that I know of from the feasibility study before starting the processing portion of the mine.

Old Rocks: Are you doing this? Answer. No

V. Zh. Arens1 and A. S. Khrulev1

(1) Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, Moscow, Russia


Abstract The mining-and-geological conditions are analyzed for the occurrence conditions of gold placers, where the hydraulic borehole mining is expedient. The empirical dependences are established for calculating the basic parameters of hydraulic mining through the boreholes drilled in carrying out the experimental-industrial tests. The prototypes of hydraulic mining equipment are designed and tested. The trends are determined for the increase in efficiency of hydraulic borehole mining from thawed and frozen placers of different thickness.


Old Rocks: Hydraulics as in machinery? Answer. Portable machinery.

Old Rocks: Hydraulics as in Giants? Answer. Hydraulics as in diesel driven hydraulic pumps (non-electric).

Old Rocks: I am a millwright by trade and have dealt with the hydraullics in construction, saw mills, and steel mills. The latter being far more sophisticated than the former.

 

[Modbert]

Canada and Mexico want to kill us? They supply us with most of our oil. I never knew Canadians were so mad at us for stealing hockey teams!

You must have fun being a troll and being purposefully obtuse.

 

[Big Fitz]

And you still can't get past a fundamental blockade:

It's NOT man's fault.

Total utter bullshit. It has been shown by isotopal studies as far back as 1957, Scripps Oceanographic Institute, that the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is the direct result of burning fossil fuels.

There is no need for draconian laws.

Sure, just deal with the Draconian results.

Mankind cannot control the climate.

Again, utter bullshit. We already are, in a very dismal way.

There is no need for "green" energy.

There is no need for brains.

Note the terms. Need for. Cannot Control. No Need.

Do you understand what that means?

Yes, I do. It means that you are a hopeless idiot. It means that you will never accept reality that does not agree with your idea of "the way things ought to be".

Means, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, all your political hullabullshit is for naught.

What the hell does politics have to do with the fact that the ice caps and glaciers are melting?

The planet's going to do what it's going to do. We are best served by using the BEST forms of energy and technology out there which is created by western civilization in a capitalist system run on Fossil Fuels and Nuclear power.

If people like you are stupid enough to hitch the capitalist system to fossil fuels, then it and you will die in this century.

Your Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine will not be able to compete for the next century, if ever. Besides, if implemented the consequences created by these inefficient, expensive and unreliable forms of energy would destroy this nation's economy faster than P-BO can with a federal budget.... which has been 12 months.

I don't give a flying fuck if Ozone molecules fluoresce blue in the presence of hamsters. None of the hyperventilation you desire is neccessary.

Fucking deal nutbag.

You are a fool, and always will be.

The effects of the use of fossil fuels are evident all around us now. No scientific society in the world denies this. Only fools blindly dittoing the mouthings of a junkie radio jock.

Tard

 

[Old Rocks]

Thank you, Rodishi.

Sand and Gravel operation, then.

When I worked for the Forest Service, I was lab inspector for Region 6, and refereed many tests. In one case, I cost the Forest Service hundreds of thousands of dollars when I pointed out that the Forest Service technicians had made a basic mistake that rendered all their tests, and the rejection of the contractors gravel, in error. They were cooking the gravel before sieving out the binder material.

As for your use of diesel engines for your machinery, I have no problem with that. Provided that the replacement engines are much more efficient, and that we should be working toward supplying the diesel from biologic sources, and I do not mean food crops at all.

Algae Biofuel From Sewage

As for the rest of the post, if you are not one of those rejecting all forms of alternative energy, solar, geothermal, wind, and nuclear, then I apoligize. But if you look at this thread, consider how many do, and how many ignore, outright, the present economics of that energy.

 

[Old Rocks]

Canada and Mexico want to kill us? They supply us with most of our oil. I never knew Canadians were so mad at us for stealing hockey teams!

You must have fun being a troll and being purposefully obtuse.

Naw, Fritz is not purposely obtuse, he was born that way

 

[Big Fitz]

Where do we get our foreign oil from? Mostly Canada and Mexico. Nigeria is #3 on the list, Saudi Arabia is #5, behind Venezuela. But the Canada alone equals all the output from #3-5.

In Thousand Barrel Units per month, from June to Nov 09, here's some of the numbers

OPEC*
144,430 143,324 141,591 150,634 142,017 137,658

Non OPEC*
212,627 230,308 206,942 200,996 194,521 194,731

Then broken down by our top three suppliers.

Canada
75,861 81,824 78,234 70,680 73,162 75,817

Mexico
35,486 40,799 35,942 38,124 35,211 32,504

Nigeria
24,892 27,250 28,442 26,828 26,927 29,394

Venezuela
37,107 29,717 33,178 34,392 29,619 26,687

Saudi Arabia
28,759 35,755 23,760 31,340 29,233 25,437

Check it out here:

U.S. Total Crude Oil and Products Imports

I'd be more than happy to cut down on us buying from OPEC if possible. When we gonna fire up the wells here and start drilling where we know we have good domestic oil production?

 

[Oddball]

Listen carefully as another lefty moonbat blabbering point bites the dust.

 

[Big Fitz]

Listen carefully as another lefty moonbat blabbering point bites the dust.

They don't care. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Oh yeah, and out of our top five suppliers, only Venezuela's a known 'enemy' of the US who wants to kill us. The House of Saud wants us to be very friendly with them. We keep their dynasty afloat.

 

[Old Rocks]

if the Saudis and Venzuela cease to pump, what is the cost of the Canadian oil? If the Canadians cease to pump oil, where do we get the oil?

Remember, this is not the '50's anymore. We are facing global competition for oil. So Venezuela and Saudi Arabia have just as much to do with what we pay for oil as does Canada and Mexico.