Why I Am Not A Christian

[SmarterThanHick]

No, my position is about personal responsibility for one's actions. There are consequences to actions, if you can't handle the consequences then don't do the action.

A theoretically ideal stance, but practically useless. People in this camp seem incapable of actually dealing with a situation presented before them, stating that somehow the past should have been changed to undo the issue before it occurred. This argument came up a lot in the stem cell debate, when thousands of embryos had to either be researched or destroyed, and the "moral" response was "but they shouldn't have been created in the first place". Well, sure, but they were. Similarly, it's easy to say "well you should have done something differently". Sure. But responsibility shouldn't stop just because of contraception failure.

So sure, your theoretical ideals are correct. Practically though, it's useless.

You know what I think Curve, I think it's easy for you to use the rationalization that those of us that oppose abortion are just out to control everyone else's life. Why the hell would I give a damn about what anyone else does with their life? It's about the death of innocent life that we're supposed to be protecting, it has nothing to do with control. But you go on telling yourself that if it's the only way you can understand since you can't understand why I would want to protect innocent life. I think it's amazing how we can condemn murder in our society, but let millions be murdered by their own flesh and blood and call it 'privacy'.

Oh I see. Let's break that down. What do you feel is the underlying reason behind protecting innocent life? I'm not disagree, I'm trying to get to your personal reasons. Don't give me "because it's right". Tell me why, ethically, it is right.

Remember, when there is a prohibition in scripture, it is usually there because of thousands of years of seeing the consequence of living without the prohibition.

Yeah, it was a surprisingly decent form of public health for its time.

 

[Madeline]

Thanks to Neubarth and Newby for illustrating my point: mainstream christianity is anti-sexual and anti-female. Anyone who does not fit your model of "sex within marriage" deserves all the horrors than denied medical care can heap on them...because you feel ready, willing and able to judge and decide for someone else, against their will.

If you two weren't being led by the nose, I'd call this delusional self-aggrandizement.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Thanks to Neubarth and Newby for illustrating my point: mainstream christianity is anti-sexual and anti-female. Anyone who does not fit your model of "sex within marriage" deserves all the horrors than denied medical care can heap on them...because you feel ready, willing and able to judge and decide for someone else, against their will.

If you two weren't being led by the nose, I'd call this delusional self-aggrandizement.

And thanks for proving my point that you believe morality is not absolute.

 

[THE LIGHT]

What about your claim that scientists cannot explain what holds an atom together, but you (presumably your faith) can?

What part of that do you have a problem with?

The part where science courses in public schools are hijacked by "creationists", where scientific discoveries are frustrated by opposition to stem cell research, where safer abortificants are withheld from the US public for "religious reasons", etc.

In short, I have a problem with anyone who elevates his own irrationality and frustrates science.

So since you cannot answer what problem you have with what I have said nor refute it scientifically; what problem do you have with creationists now?

You mean safer murder?

In short you have a problem with anyone who won't let you do what you see right in your own eyes.

 

[CurveLight]

No, my position is about personal responsibility for one's actions. There are consequences to actions, if you can't handle the consequences then don't do the action. Murder is not the solution to not live up to responsibilities for actions that you have taken of your own free will knowing what potential consequences there for the actions you took. Murder is the cop out, the easy way out, and it's affecting someone else's life, not just your own now. It has nothing to do with privacy, it's murder. What percentage of abortions are for birth control? Do you have any idea how many babies have been murdered in the US in the last 30 some years? I guess privacy is more important than life to you.

Yeah, I just want to control everyone else's behavior.

And sorry that I'm emotional about the loss of innocent human life, it sure beats the hell out of having no compassion for life at all.

You don't care about the Right to Life. If you did you wouldn't ignore the woman's life. Do you not understand you are contradicting yourself?

 

[CurveLight]

Is the mother of the child undeserving of compassion? Does she have a right to make her own ethical decision or is her decision up to a committee?

I'll show her as much compassion as she shows her unborn child.

So you want to control her based on your opinion of her compassion.

 

[CurveLight]

The question I always love to ponder is " thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" does that mean I can covet my neighbors husband?

Yep, until you get AIDS, herpes and fifteen other venereal diseases.

Remember, when there is a prohibition in scripture, it is usually there because of thousands of years of seeing the consequence of living without the prohibition. Back when eating pork could kill you, many religions forbade the consumption of pork.

Since liberal sex resulted in the spread of venereal disease and death therefrom, liberal sex was outlawed.

Just think about it, if there was no sex outside of marriage, there would be NO AIDS, and all those other venereal diseases. Makes sense, don't it?

Back when men were more prone to kill somebody for flirting with their wives, all conduct of that nature was prohibited by most religions. It resulted in far fewer men being killed because they "Looked" at another man's wife.

The reality is that if it saves lives and makes sense, most religions pick it up eventually.

You're a Christian that openly advocates incinerating millions of innocent lives purely based on geography. Forgive us if we ignore your opinion like Tiger Woods on a fidelity speech.

 

[CurveLight]

You know what I think Curve, I think it's easy for you to use the rationalization that those of us that oppose abortion are just out to control everyone else's life. Why the hell would I give a damn about what anyone else does with their life? It's about the death of innocent life that we're supposed to be protecting, it has nothing to do with control. But you go on telling yourself that if it's the only way you can understand since you can't understand why I would want to protect innocent life. I think it's amazing how we can condemn murder in our society, but let millions be murdered by their own flesh and blood and call it 'privacy'.

What are common positions among anti-choicers?


Pro-death penalty

Pro-war

Anti-equal healthcare

Anti-equal education

Anti-gay marriage

I know not all positions apply to you but the only common thread throughout those positions are based in control. You revealed yourself when you spent more time justifying your position based on the sexual practices of women versus the pregnancy itself. Let's apply your logic to other areas:

If you get in a car accident....so what? You know driving or riding in vehicles and lead to accidents so people who lose limb and life have no one to blame but themselves.

If you take an airplane and it crashes...so what? You know planes can crash.

 

[Frank]

You know what I think Curve, I think it's easy for you to use the rationalization that those of us that oppose abortion are just out to control everyone else's life. Why the hell would I give a damn about what anyone else does with their life? It's about the death of innocent life that we're supposed to be protecting, it has nothing to do with control. But you go on telling yourself that if it's the only way you can understand since you can't understand why I would want to protect innocent life. I think it's amazing how we can condemn murder in our society, but let millions be murdered by their own flesh and blood and call it 'privacy'.

What are common positions among anti-choicers?


Pro-death penalty

Pro-war

Anti-equal healthcare

Anti-equal education

Anti-gay marriage

I know not all positions apply to you but the only common thread throughout those positions are based in control. You revealed yourself when you spent more time justifying your position based on the sexual practices of women versus the pregnancy itself. Let's apply your logic to other areas:

If you get in a car accident....so what? You know driving or riding in vehicles and lead to accidents so people who lose limb and life have no one to blame but themselves.

If you take an airplane and it crashes...so what? You know planes can crash.

Anti-choicers? That's a new one.....

Actually, I've questioned my stance on the death penalty as I have gotten older. That's a tough one to deal with. But, even if someone is executed, that is the punishment for their crime. An unborn child has commited no crime.

I'm not pro-war, but I do support our troops and also understand what was done in Iraq was something that had to be done. I'm sure that there are millions of Jews that wish someone had stepped forward and in the case of Iraq, the US was following through with MANY UN resolutions that were ignored by Iraq.

I'm not anti-equal healthcare - but I'm damn sick and tired of going to work everyday, doing the responsible thing, only to have my money taken to cover those who are not nearly as responsible.

I'm not anti-equal education - I believe in the voucher system. It's about educating the children, not pandering to the NEA.

And as for anti-gay marriage, I believe that there is a minority of people who want this. But, as has been proven by ELECTIONS, the MAJORITY of voters are not. In this country, the majority makes the rules.

And your analogy is stupid.

 

[Newby]

You know what I think Curve, I think it's easy for you to use the rationalization that those of us that oppose abortion are just out to control everyone else's life. Why the hell would I give a damn about what anyone else does with their life? It's about the death of innocent life that we're supposed to be protecting, it has nothing to do with control. But you go on telling yourself that if it's the only way you can understand since you can't understand why I would want to protect innocent life. I think it's amazing how we can condemn murder in our society, but let millions be murdered by their own flesh and blood and call it 'privacy'.

What are common positions among anti-choicers?


Pro-death penalty

Pro-war

Anti-equal healthcare

Anti-equal education

Anti-gay marriage

I know not all positions apply to you but the only common thread throughout those positions are based in control. You revealed yourself when you spent more time justifying your position based on the sexual practices of women versus the pregnancy itself. Let's apply your logic to other areas:

If you get in a car accident....so what? You know driving or riding in vehicles and lead to accidents so people who lose limb and life have no one to blame but themselves.

If you take an airplane and it crashes...so what? You know planes can crash.

Yeah, 'group' people together based on how they feel about certain moral areas, that'll really work.

You've attributed positions to me that I neither said I had or even implied that I had, so there's no point in even further discussing this when the discussion can't be honest. Same goes for Madeline, that's all she knows how to do, maybe someday people will learn to debate and discuss issues honestly.

 

[Newby]

For Mad and Sky.

What a surprise, progressive politics bullying people with their 'moral' values, or lack thereof using the force of government. I could probably post a hundred links to similar stories across the country where progressives are using government to force their values on everyone else in their community. But, it's christians that do these sorts of things, right? Why don't you people try for once to be honest with your bullshit claims. They're even over riding what parents feel should be taught to their children or in this case given to their children. Tell me again how Christians are over riding your society with their morals?

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

June 12, 9:02 AMSex Education Examiner Sarah Estrella

New no-minimum-age condom distribution policy approved for Provincetown SchoolsAccording to a report in the Provincetown Banner yesterday, this week the school committee in Provincetown, MA unanimously approved a new condom distribution policy for the Provincetown Public Schools, including both Provincetown High School and Veterans Memorial Elementary School.

The policy requires students to speak with a school nurse or other trained counselor to receive the free condoms, but is notable because it does not have a minimum age limit and also because the policy explicitly states that "the school district will not honor requests from parents that students not be allowed to receive condoms."

The most controversial portion of the policy seems to have been over requiring students to speak with a nurse or counselor to get the condoms.

 

[Sky Dancer]

For Mad and Sky.

What a surprise, progressive politics bullying people with their 'moral' values, or lack thereof using the force of government. I could probably post a hundred links to similar stories across the country where progressives are using government to force their values on everyone else in their community. But, it's christians that do these sorts of things, right? Why don't you people try for once to be honest with your bullshit claims. They're even over riding what parents feel should be taught to their children or in this case given to their children. Tell me again how Christians are over riding your society with their morals?

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

June 12, 9:02 AMSex Education Examiner Sarah Estrella

New no-minimum-age condom distribution policy approved for Provincetown SchoolsAccording to a report in the Provincetown Banner yesterday, this week the school committee in Provincetown, MA unanimously approved a new condom distribution policy for the Provincetown Public Schools, including both Provincetown High School and Veterans Memorial Elementary School.

The policy requires students to speak with a school nurse or other trained counselor to receive the free condoms, but is notable because it does not have a minimum age limit and also because the policy explicitly states that "the school district will not honor requests from parents that students not be allowed to receive condoms."

The most controversial portion of the policy seems to have been over requiring students to speak with a nurse or counselor to get the condoms.

I don't recall ever suggesting that progressives aren't politically active. So, now I'm dishonest and my point of view is bullshit. Sad, Newby.

 

[Newby]

For Mad and Sky.

What a surprise, progressive politics bullying people with their 'moral' values, or lack thereof using the force of government. I could probably post a hundred links to similar stories across the country where progressives are using government to force their values on everyone else in their community. But, it's christians that do these sorts of things, right? Why don't you people try for once to be honest with your bullshit claims. They're even over riding what parents feel should be taught to their children or in this case given to their children. Tell me again how Christians are over riding your society with their morals?

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

June 12, 9:02 AMSex Education Examiner Sarah Estrella

New no-minimum-age condom distribution policy approved for Provincetown SchoolsAccording to a report in the Provincetown Banner yesterday, this week the school committee in Provincetown, MA unanimously approved a new condom distribution policy for the Provincetown Public Schools, including both Provincetown High School and Veterans Memorial Elementary School.

The policy requires students to speak with a school nurse or other trained counselor to receive the free condoms, but is notable because it does not have a minimum age limit and also because the policy explicitly states that "the school district will not honor requests from parents that students not be allowed to receive condoms."

The most controversial portion of the policy seems to have been over requiring students to speak with a nurse or counselor to get the condoms.

I don't recall ever suggesting that progressives aren't politically active. So, now I'm dishonest and my point of view is bullshit. Sad, Newby.

Oh, so it's okay that progressives are politically active, but Christians aren't allowed to be? Why don't you tell me what your point of view is about it then? You've been beating around the bush, backing up Mad's posts with links that I guess you think back up what she's saying, implying to me that you agree with her opinion that Christians are trying to force their values down everyone else's throat all the time. Do you agree with that or not?

 

[Sky Dancer]

For Mad and Sky.

What a surprise, progressive politics bullying people with their 'moral' values, or lack thereof using the force of government. I could probably post a hundred links to similar stories across the country where progressives are using government to force their values on everyone else in their community. But, it's christians that do these sorts of things, right? Why don't you people try for once to be honest with your bullshit claims. They're even over riding what parents feel should be taught to their children or in this case given to their children. Tell me again how Christians are over riding your society with their morals?

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

School committee in Provincetown, Massachusetts approves elementary school condom distribution plan

June 12, 9:02 AMSex Education Examiner Sarah Estrella

New no-minimum-age condom distribution policy approved for Provincetown SchoolsAccording to a report in the Provincetown Banner yesterday, this week the school committee in Provincetown, MA unanimously approved a new condom distribution policy for the Provincetown Public Schools, including both Provincetown High School and Veterans Memorial Elementary School.

The policy requires students to speak with a school nurse or other trained counselor to receive the free condoms, but is notable because it does not have a minimum age limit and also because the policy explicitly states that "the school district will not honor requests from parents that students not be allowed to receive condoms."

The most controversial portion of the policy seems to have been over requiring students to speak with a nurse or counselor to get the condoms.

I don't recall ever suggesting that progressives aren't politically active. So, now I'm dishonest and my point of view is bullshit. Sad, Newby.

Oh, so it's okay that progressives are politically active, but Christians aren't allowed to be? Why don't you tell me what your point of view is about it then? You've been beating around the bush, backing up Mad's posts with links that I guess you think back up what she's saying, implying to me that you agree with her opinion that Christians are trying to force their values down everyone else's throat all the time. Do you agree with that or not?

No. I don't agree that all Christians are trying to force their values down everyone elses throat all the time. I think some of them are doing that and want their moral choices to be everyone elses. The Catholic Church and LDS poured a ton of money into the state of California to defeat gay marriage. They seek to make their morality everyone elses.

I think some Christians would be quite happy if America was a Christian theocracy.

I don't think that you or Frank or Curve Light fall into that category--although you may about abortion. You have no compassion for the women with unplanned pregnancies.

This thread is about why Madelines chooses to not be a Christian. She has valid reasons from her point of view.

 

[Newby]

I don't recall ever suggesting that progressives aren't politically active. So, now I'm dishonest and my point of view is bullshit. Sad, Newby.

Oh, so it's okay that progressives are politically active, but Christians aren't allowed to be? Why don't you tell me what your point of view is about it then? You've been beating around the bush, backing up Mad's posts with links that I guess you think back up what she's saying, implying to me that you agree with her opinion that Christians are trying to force their values down everyone else's throat all the time. Do you agree with that or not?

No. I don't agree that all Christians are trying to force their values down everyone elses throat all the time. I think some of them are doing that and want their moral choices to be everyone elses. The Catholic Church and LDS poured a ton of money into the state of California to defeat gay marriage. They seek to make their morality everyone elses.

I think some Christians would be quite happy if America was a Christian theocracy.

I don't think that you or Frank or Curve Light fall into that category--although you may about abortion. You have no compassion for the women with unplanned pregnancies.

This thread is about why Madelines chooses to not be a Christian. She has valid reasons from her point of view.

Anyone can have valid reasons to not be a christian, that doesn't mean that you have to imply what has been implied about them in this thread and basically lie, as she has done. If you don't want to be a christian because some of them are politically active and support causes and/or legislation that they think are good, then I guess you wouldn't want to be a member of any other social group in our society either then since just about all of them do the same thing. Seems like a pretty stupid reason to me, which is why I said that this thread is just about bashing christians and little else. Thanks for at least stating your position.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Oh, so it's okay that progressives are politically active, but Christians aren't allowed to be? Why don't you tell me what your point of view is about it then? You've been beating around the bush, backing up Mad's posts with links that I guess you think back up what she's saying, implying to me that you agree with her opinion that Christians are trying to force their values down everyone else's throat all the time. Do you agree with that or not?

No. I don't agree that all Christians are trying to force their values down everyone elses throat all the time. I think some of them are doing that and want their moral choices to be everyone elses. The Catholic Church and LDS poured a ton of money into the state of California to defeat gay marriage. They seek to make their morality everyone elses.

I think some Christians would be quite happy if America was a Christian theocracy.

I don't think that you or Frank or Curve Light fall into that category--although you may about abortion. You have no compassion for the women with unplanned pregnancies.

This thread is about why Madelines chooses to not be a Christian. She has valid reasons from her point of view.

Anyone can have valid reasons to not be a christian, that doesn't mean that you have to imply what has been implied about them in this thread and basically lie, as she has done. If you don't want to be a christian because some of them are politically active and support causes and/or legislation that they think are good, then I guess you wouldn't want to be a member of any other social group in our society either then since just about all of them do the same thing. Seems like a pretty stupid reason to me, which is why I said that this thread is just about bashing christians and little else. Thanks for at least stating your position.

It's difficult to hear criticism about your faith and not feel bashed. I think there is a difference between Madeline owning her heartfelt feelings and saying that the world is how she says it is. She has made a few good points and so have you. Some of what you say Madeline is lying about she just hasn't provided links for the evidence that back up her claim. I try to do that myself. I also posted a nuanced view of how Buddhists see the abortion issue.

 

[Newby]

No. I don't agree that all Christians are trying to force their values down everyone elses throat all the time. I think some of them are doing that and want their moral choices to be everyone elses. The Catholic Church and LDS poured a ton of money into the state of California to defeat gay marriage. They seek to make their morality everyone elses.

I think some Christians would be quite happy if America was a Christian theocracy.

I don't think that you or Frank or Curve Light fall into that category--although you may about abortion. You have no compassion for the women with unplanned pregnancies.

This thread is about why Madelines chooses to not be a Christian. She has valid reasons from her point of view.

Anyone can have valid reasons to not be a christian, that doesn't mean that you have to imply what has been implied about them in this thread and basically lie, as she has done. If you don't want to be a christian because some of them are politically active and support causes and/or legislation that they think are good, then I guess you wouldn't want to be a member of any other social group in our society either then since just about all of them do the same thing. Seems like a pretty stupid reason to me, which is why I said that this thread is just about bashing christians and little else. Thanks for at least stating your position.

It's difficult to hear criticism about your faith and not feel bashed. I think there is a difference between Madeline owning her heartfelt feelings and saying that the world is how she says it is. She has made a few good points.

There's a difference between criticism and lies. Madeline's perceptions are not realities and she should educate herself before she makes blanket statements that aren't true.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Anyone can have valid reasons to not be a christian, that doesn't mean that you have to imply what has been implied about them in this thread and basically lie, as she has done. If you don't want to be a christian because some of them are politically active and support causes and/or legislation that they think are good, then I guess you wouldn't want to be a member of any other social group in our society either then since just about all of them do the same thing. Seems like a pretty stupid reason to me, which is why I said that this thread is just about bashing christians and little else. Thanks for at least stating your position.

It's difficult to hear criticism about your faith and not feel bashed. I think there is a difference between Madeline owning her heartfelt feelings and saying that the world is how she says it is. She has made a few good points.

There's a difference between criticism and lies. Madeline's perceptions are not realities and she should educate herself before she makes blanket statements that aren't true.

There is a difference between not backing up your claims and trying to deliberately deceive someone. I think you're way too quick to call your opponents liars.

 

[Newby]

It's difficult to hear criticism about your faith and not feel bashed. I think there is a difference between Madeline owning her heartfelt feelings and saying that the world is how she says it is. She has made a few good points.

There's a difference between criticism and lies. Madeline's perceptions are not realities and she should educate herself before she makes blanket statements that aren't true.

There is a difference between not backing up your claims and trying to deliberately deceive someone. I think you're way too quick to call your opponents liars.

Maybe that would be true if she hadn't continued to say the same thing over and over several times after having been asked to back them up but did nothing. I don't see an honest mistake there, I see deliberate intensions.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There's a difference between criticism and lies. Madeline's perceptions are not realities and she should educate herself before she makes blanket statements that aren't true.

There is a difference between not backing up your claims and trying to deliberately deceive someone. I think you're way too quick to call your opponents liars.

Maybe that would be true if she hadn't continued to say the same thing over and over several times after having been asked to back them up but did nothing. I don't see an honest mistake there, I see deliberate intensions.

I see someone who has a bias against Christian activism, and apparent hyprocrisy, not a liar.