Why buying health care across state lines is a terrible, terrible idea.

[starcraftzzz]

So, as the GOP often does, they took an idea that might've been something nice and contorted it into something unworkable and ridiculous.

the GOP idea is capitalism just like we have with toothpaste. We have crushing state regulation in health insurance because Democrats are one part corrupt and one part stupid.

The biggest part of why capitalism works is competition; so it is odd that Republican oppose obamacare given that it makes it so insurance companies compete for customers. Of course scoring political points is more important tot he GOP then anything else.
Plz name one widely used government regulation that makes health care worse.
Here;s some regulations/intervention from Obamacare that makes health care better.
Administration Implements Affordable Care Act Provision to Improve Care, Lower Costs
^ACA expansion of value-based medicine estimated to save 60,000 lives and 35 billion dollars in its first 3 years.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-01-10/pdf/2012-132.pdf
^New ACA regulations expanding electric funds transfers around 200million dollars a year

Affordable Care Act cuts health care red tape, saves $12 billion
^New ACA regulation simplifying of eligibility rules and claim transactions to save a net of 1.2billion dollars a year by reducing bureaucracy/paper work

Here some other regulations that make health care better

Setting Hospital Rates To Control Costs And Boost Quality: The Maryland Experience
^Maryland’s All payer rate setting has kept Maryland’s spending lower than almost all USA states, and saves the state billions of dollars.
Ezra Klein - In health care, more is not always better
^Strict government regulations reduced costs in Richmond; the city also had above par medical care for heart disease and pneumonia. Example of government regulation: local government requires hospitals/doctors to demonstrate a need to expand.

Your turn.

 

[Brutus]

Back in the real world, companies aren't out to make you happy. They do what is most profitable.

too stupid but perfectly 100% liberal!!! Who makes more profit, a guy with a good product or a guy with a bad product to sell. The beauty of capitalism is that it makes you a slave to your customers best interests. Still over your liberal head?

How about the guy with the best ad campaign?

Perfectly liberal and stupid. If ads mattered we'd be back in the stone age rather than making steady progress. A liberal lacks the IQ to understand capitalism.

 

[dblack]

The biggest part of why capitalism works is competition ...

I think what you're not getting is that how well it "works" isn't why we (we libertarian types at least) like capitalism. The most important virtue of free markets is the freedom. A 'market' that denies us the most basic right - the right to say "NO" - isn't free.

 

[Bfgrn]

Of course, NEVER give ANYONE the FREEDOM to buy WHAT they want, WHEN they want.... or *WHERE* they want... we just CAN'T HAVE THAT. I may as well NEVER shop off ebay or Amazon.com EVER AGAIN!

Moron.

It's called "COMPETITION" deanbag... get it? If insurance companies know that you'll buy insurance from SOMEONE ELSE if they continually DROP people, then they're not going to be in BUSINESS much longer. Sheeeeezuz... "FREE MARKET."

WHY do you liberal ZEALOTS *HATE* freedom so much?

If you are going to start selling health care across state lines, you might as well just get rid of ALL laws and make this a country of "every man for himself". No speed laws. No regulations for food or car safety. Just give everyone a gun. That'll fix things. Republicans say that's what they want. But when faced with reality, they usually start crying a different tune.

And ain't that funny, that's damn close to how this country was founded and became the greatest nation on earth, and here you are bitching about it because those "rugged individuals" gave you the right to whine your pathetic little face off.

And don't bother "giving me a gun." I've already got PLENTY.

You have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years. You were just diagnosed with cancer. Your insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

 

[dblack]

You have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years. You were just diagnosed with cancer. Your insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

People stopping buying shitty insurance. If they're still free to, that is.

Seriously, free markets don't endorse, or tolerate, fraud. If the insurance company promised (or even convincingly 'suggested') that they would cover cancer treatment and then denied the claim, they can and should be held accountable.

 

[Bfgrn]

You have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years. You were just diagnosed with cancer. Your insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

People stopping buying shitty insurance. If they're still free to, that is.

ANSWER the question.

 

[dblack]

You have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years. You were just diagnosed with cancer. Your insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

People stopping buying shitty insurance. If they're still free to, that is.

ANSWER the question.

I did... (in the edit).

But to elaborate, a free market doesn't mean insurance companies get to do whatever they want. They can't lie, steal or cheat any more than any other companies or individuals can. As is often the case, we're equivocating on the term "regulation" by comparing laws requiring insurance companies to be honest, with regulations that tell us what kind of insurance we can or can't buy - or worse, telling us that we must buy it.

 

[Bfgrn]

People stopping buying shitty insurance. If they're still free to, that is.

ANSWER the question.

I did... (in the edit).

But to elaborate, a free market doesn't mean insurance companies get to do whatever they want. They can't lie, steal or cheat any more than any other companies or individuals can. As is often the case, we're equivocating on the term "regulation" by comparing laws requiring insurance be honest, with regulations that tell us what kind of insurance we can or can't buy - or worse, telling us that we must buy it.

You DIDN'T answer the question...

YOU have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years.

YOU were just diagnosed with cancer.

YOUR insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

 

[dblack]

ANSWER the question.

I did... (in the edit).

But to elaborate, a free market doesn't mean insurance companies get to do whatever they want. They can't lie, steal or cheat any more than any other companies or individuals can. As is often the case, we're equivocating on the term "regulation" by comparing laws requiring insurance be honest, with regulations that tell us what kind of insurance we can or can't buy - or worse, telling us that we must buy it.

You DIDN'T answer the question...

YOU have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years.

YOU were just diagnosed with cancer.

YOUR insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

The free market relies on laws that require companies to honor contracts. This is the proper, the necessary, role of government in regulating markets. You seem to be working on the assumption that 'free market' implies anarchy or something.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I'm watching Morning Joe and their guest was going on about how being able to purchase health care across state lines is the "answer" to America's health care problems. And Meeka, bless her little dark roots, was cheering him on with "I don't know why that isn't an option". A normal response from her until things are explained and sometimes even after.

Republicans and HC Companies would LOVE being able to sell across state lines.

Imagine, you live in California, but you buy your health care in New York. You need an operation so they cut your policy. Who do you go to for help? It's not likely that you would hire a lawyer, after all, you went to New York to save money. You would have to find a lawyer in New York. See?

Imagine you were one of a thousand people in California living next to a company and all of you got sick from some kind of contamination. Your HC company in New York told the state of California, "You let them get sick, you take care of them". Once again, you would end up with no health care.

Look at what HC companies do now and it's not even across state lines. Until Obama, they could drop you for having a mammogram. Or use an allergy as a "pre existing condition" to cut off your policy if you got sick. Or cut off your entire family if your son had an appendectomy.

If you are going to start selling health care across state lines, you might as well just get rid of ALL laws and make this a country of "every man for himself". No speed laws. No regulations for food or car safety. Just give everyone a gun. That'll fix things. Republicans say that's what they want. But when faced with reality, they usually start crying a different tune.

What does it matter if the company that reimburses your doctor is in a different state?

You're not supplying any facts to support your assertion that just because an insurance company is in another state that they will screw you over.

 

[PoliticalChic]

ANSWER the question.

I did... (in the edit).

But to elaborate, a free market doesn't mean insurance companies get to do whatever they want. They can't lie, steal or cheat any more than any other companies or individuals can. As is often the case, we're equivocating on the term "regulation" by comparing laws requiring insurance be honest, with regulations that tell us what kind of insurance we can or can't buy - or worse, telling us that we must buy it.

You DIDN'T answer the question...

YOU have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years.

YOU were just diagnosed with cancer.

YOUR insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

As we say in philosophy when dealing with a paradox, produce the letter.

 

[Bfgrn]

I did... (in the edit).

But to elaborate, a free market doesn't mean insurance companies get to do whatever they want. They can't lie, steal or cheat any more than any other companies or individuals can. As is often the case, we're equivocating on the term "regulation" by comparing laws requiring insurance be honest, with regulations that tell us what kind of insurance we can or can't buy - or worse, telling us that we must buy it.

You DIDN'T answer the question...

YOU have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years.

YOU were just diagnosed with cancer.

YOUR insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

As we say in philosophy when dealing with a paradox, produce the letter.

Denial, the tool of the right.

Here is your term for the day: pre-existing condition

Pre-Existing Condition Health Insurance Horror Stories

1. Your Honor or Your Insurance? In 2009 a Florida woman was the victim of rape. She was slipped a date-rape drug while at a bar in Ft. Lauderdale and lost all recollection of the events that followed. She awakened on the side of the road with injuries which were indicative of rape and went to the hospital for treatment. As part of the normal procedure when dealing with rape the hospital staff prescribed several drugs against sexually transmitted diseases, including a month’s worth of HIV medications. When the woman lost her health insurance a few months later and shopped for new coverage she got the shock of her life: insurers found out about her having taken HIV meds and denied her coverage. Although she had tested negative and has since, she was told to come back in a few years, and if she was still negative they would consider covering her. Do you know what is truly ironic about this case? She was an insurance underwriter! Other victims of sexual assault have reported the same treatment, ranging from denial of coverage to denial of services such as psychological therapy after the incident. So those who are the victims of sexual assault have to ask themselves, which is more important to me? My insurance…or my honor? My ability to seek justice? Unfortunately for many, pragmatism has to win, especially for those with children who would doubly lose out.

2. This One’s Too Big, This One’s Too Little…What’s Just Right? Two children made the news for being excluded from getting health insurance coverage in 2009 for very similar reasons. One child was deemed as “obese” because they weighed in at the 99th percentile on the weight charts for his age…which was only four months. An infant who had only been taking breast milk was called “fat” buy the parents’ health insurance company, and denied coverage. The other child was the opposite: at the age of 2 and weighing in at 22 pounds, a little girl was denied coverage for being “too skinny.” Both children were screened independently by doctors and deemed as healthy despite their weight issues. Insurance companies base these decisions on actuarial weight tables which allow them to screen out up to 11% of applicants due to pre-existing weight issues. Sounds crazy, huh? You can almost understand it when it’s a grossly obese adult who has spent his entire life consuming junk food…but a four month old??? Really???

3. The Future Doesn’t Matter. Only the Past. A 32 year old woman was denied health insurance coverage by several companies due to a history of infertility problems. Although she had been certified as medically sound and healthy and had no desire to have any more children (she had 2) in the future, the insurers said that they could only certify based on the past. A Florida woman who had health insurance went in for surgery for what her doctor suspected was ovarian cancer. A few months later the woman got a $15,000 bill in the mail for the complete amount of her surgery and hospitalization, because the insurer had deemed her as having a pre-existing condition. The woman had actually not had cancer but had a common gynecological condition known as ovarian cysts, which actually affects up to 30% of all women. The fact that an insurer can potentially disqualify up to 30% of the population is truly disgusting. Yet another woman who had beaten non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma eight years previously left her job and insurance when she moved. When she attempted to enroll in her new employer’s program they denied her, telling her she needed to wait another 2 years and be certified as cancer free for a total of 10 years before she could be covered by anyone. The woman then went without medical checkups for the next several years even though she needed them to make sure her cancer hadn’t returned—because she was afraid if she did find out that fact before the 10 year waiting period was up she’d be denied all over again, and this time permanently. She endangered her health because she felt she had to in order to get health insurance.

These are just a drop in the bucket of the horror stories of pre-existing conditions. Health insurance companies aren’t required to give reasons for denials or release their records about cases. They make decisions based on their own standards, not actual standards of care, and mete out treatment based on their bottom line. Thankfully the pre-existing condition is on its way out shortly. 2014 can’t come too soon for millions of Americans who’ve gotten the short end of the stick regarding their insurance.

 

[Bfgrn]

I did... (in the edit).

But to elaborate, a free market doesn't mean insurance companies get to do whatever they want. They can't lie, steal or cheat any more than any other companies or individuals can. As is often the case, we're equivocating on the term "regulation" by comparing laws requiring insurance be honest, with regulations that tell us what kind of insurance we can or can't buy - or worse, telling us that we must buy it.

You DIDN'T answer the question...

YOU have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years.

YOU were just diagnosed with cancer.

YOUR insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

The free market relies on laws that require companies to honor contracts. This is the proper, the necessary, role of government in regulating markets. You seem to be working on the assumption that 'free market' implies anarchy or something.

You're not going to answer the question are you? Instead you will hide behind 'collectivism'...if ENOUGH human beings DIE, they will come back and protest outside the insurance company's corporate offices.

But, I'm sure those dead people will choose a different insurance carrier ...IN THEIR NEXT LIFE.

 

[dblack]

You're not going to answer the question are you? Instead you will hide behind 'collectivism'...if ENOUGH human beings DIE, they will come back and protest outside the insurance company's corporate offices.

But, I'm sure those dead people will choose a different insurance carrier ...IN THEIR NEXT LIFE.

WTF!??? No, that's not what I said. Now take a deep breath and try to pay attention. If the insurance company sent me letter refusing to do what they said they would, I'd promptly call the state insurance commission and I'd fully expect them to do something about it. There's nothing at all implied in the concept of free markets that allows companies to rip you off.

 

[Bfgrn]

You're not going to answer the question are you? Instead you will hide behind 'collectivism'...if ENOUGH human beings DIE, they will come back and protest outside the insurance company's corporate offices.

But, I'm sure those dead people will choose a different insurance carrier ...IN THEIR NEXT LIFE.

WTF!??? No, that's not what I said. Now take a deep breath and try to pay attention. If the insurance company sent me letter refusing to do what they said they would, I'd promptly call the state insurance commission and I'd fully expect them to do something about it. There's nothing at all implied in the concept of free markets that allows companies to rip you off.

There are people employed by insurance companies whose sole job is to go over your health records with a fine tooth comb and find a loophole, a previous treatment for a mole, wart or something they can create a link to your current illness, and they get rewarded for finding and denying treatment.

THAT my naive friend is how a 'free market' works. Insurance companies are not in the healthcare business. They are in the PROFIT business. Denial of expensive treatments feed the bottom line.

Do you understand the keys to a market transaction? Do you understand the term 'leverage'? If one party in a market transaction has little or no leverage, it is NOT a free market. It is a captured market.

 

[dblack]

There are people employed by insurance companies whose sole job is to go over your health records with a fine tooth comb and find a loophole, a previous treatment for a mole, wart or something they can create a link to your current illness, and they get rewarded for finding and denying treatment.

Right, and this is exactly we need government to protect us from fraud. They shouldn't be allowed to write deliberately confusing policies. Again, this is the proper role of government in regulating markets.

THAT my naive friend is how a 'free market' works. Insurance companies are not in the healthcare business. They are in the PROFIT business. Denial of expensive treatments feed the bottom line.

I'm not quite that naive. This is why I want to use insurance as little as possible. This is exactly why I don't want to see a law forcing people to buy it and it's why I'm opposed to ACA.

Do you understand the keys to a market transaction? Do you understand the term 'leverage'? If one party in a market transaction has little or no leverage, it is NOT a free market. It is a captured market.

Only to the extent that it is propped up by government. Tax and regulatory policies that merge employment with health care (why in the hell did we ever think THAT was a good idea?) have created a situation that limits our choices, drives up prices, and promotes 'over-insurance'. The whole thing drives health care prices higher and higher making it a vicious cycle - insurance drives health care prices higher so that you need more health insurance to afford health care (which drives health care prices higher yet). Breaking that cycle should be the dedicated focus of health care reform. PPACA is the opposite, choosing to double down on a bad bet and force everyone in the game.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You DIDN'T answer the question...

YOU have a health insurance policy you've been paying into for the last 15 years.

YOU were just diagnosed with cancer.

YOUR insurance company just sent you a letter denying payment for life saving treatment...

NOW, explain how the free market fixes this?

As we say in philosophy when dealing with a paradox, produce the letter.

Denial, the tool of the right.

Here is your term for the day: pre-existing condition

Pre-Existing Condition Health Insurance Horror Stories

1. Your Honor or Your Insurance? In 2009 a Florida woman was the victim of rape. She was slipped a date-rape drug while at a bar in Ft. Lauderdale and lost all recollection of the events that followed. She awakened on the side of the road with injuries which were indicative of rape and went to the hospital for treatment. As part of the normal procedure when dealing with rape the hospital staff prescribed several drugs against sexually transmitted diseases, including a month’s worth of HIV medications. When the woman lost her health insurance a few months later and shopped for new coverage she got the shock of her life: insurers found out about her having taken HIV meds and denied her coverage. Although she had tested negative and has since, she was told to come back in a few years, and if she was still negative they would consider covering her. Do you know what is truly ironic about this case? She was an insurance underwriter! Other victims of sexual assault have reported the same treatment, ranging from denial of coverage to denial of services such as psychological therapy after the incident. So those who are the victims of sexual assault have to ask themselves, which is more important to me? My insurance…or my honor? My ability to seek justice? Unfortunately for many, pragmatism has to win, especially for those with children who would doubly lose out.

2. This One’s Too Big, This One’s Too Little…What’s Just Right? Two children made the news for being excluded from getting health insurance coverage in 2009 for very similar reasons. One child was deemed as “obese” because they weighed in at the 99th percentile on the weight charts for his age…which was only four months. An infant who had only been taking breast milk was called “fat” buy the parents’ health insurance company, and denied coverage. The other child was the opposite: at the age of 2 and weighing in at 22 pounds, a little girl was denied coverage for being “too skinny.” Both children were screened independently by doctors and deemed as healthy despite their weight issues. Insurance companies base these decisions on actuarial weight tables which allow them to screen out up to 11% of applicants due to pre-existing weight issues. Sounds crazy, huh? You can almost understand it when it’s a grossly obese adult who has spent his entire life consuming junk food…but a four month old??? Really???

3. The Future Doesn’t Matter. Only the Past. A 32 year old woman was denied health insurance coverage by several companies due to a history of infertility problems. Although she had been certified as medically sound and healthy and had no desire to have any more children (she had 2) in the future, the insurers said that they could only certify based on the past. A Florida woman who had health insurance went in for surgery for what her doctor suspected was ovarian cancer. A few months later the woman got a $15,000 bill in the mail for the complete amount of her surgery and hospitalization, because the insurer had deemed her as having a pre-existing condition. The woman had actually not had cancer but had a common gynecological condition known as ovarian cysts, which actually affects up to 30% of all women. The fact that an insurer can potentially disqualify up to 30% of the population is truly disgusting. Yet another woman who had beaten non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma eight years previously left her job and insurance when she moved. When she attempted to enroll in her new employer’s program they denied her, telling her she needed to wait another 2 years and be certified as cancer free for a total of 10 years before she could be covered by anyone. The woman then went without medical checkups for the next several years even though she needed them to make sure her cancer hadn’t returned—because she was afraid if she did find out that fact before the 10 year waiting period was up she’d be denied all over again, and this time permanently. She endangered her health because she felt she had to in order to get health insurance.

These are just a drop in the bucket of the horror stories of pre-existing conditions. Health insurance companies aren’t required to give reasons for denials or release their records about cases. They make decisions based on their own standards, not actual standards of care, and mete out treatment based on their bottom line. Thankfully the pre-existing condition is on its way out shortly. 2014 can’t come too soon for millions of Americans who’ve gotten the short end of the stick regarding their insurance.

To be clear, your solution to the rare situation of some not being accommodated is to remove the options that allowed some 80-90% of those covered to state that they were satisfied with the system.

Further, as is true of ever lock-step Janissary of totalitarian government solutions, you are certain that bureaucrats and technocrats and autocrats will create....and I'll use the terminology that you mindless Leftists love, 'Utopia.'


Welcome to the worker's paradise......

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

you are certain that bureaucrats and technocrats and autocrats will create....and I'll use the terminology that you mindless Leftists love, 'Utopia.'


Welcome to the worker's paradise......

yes, this is how we got Hilter, Stalin, Mao, the great 20th Century liberals. Jefferson saw them coming 200 years ago,( based on 3000 years of history) and so gave us freedom from all forms of central government going forward. Our goof liberals have lived through it and still they don't see that central government monopolies will be corrupt at best and genocidal on average.

Liberals should be illegal as the Constitution intended.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There are people employed by insurance companies whose sole job is to go over your health records with a fine tooth comb and find a loophole,

100% perfectly stupid and 100% perfectly liberal. Why doesn't Toyota have people finding holes in car warranties and making the cars they advertise shoddy??

Answer: because liberals didn't make competition in the auto industry illegal as they did in health care!!

Imagine someone who jogs for fun and someone who races in life and death competition? Who would be a faster runner? Now you understand competiton and how it makes us better. Not so hard was it?

Ask your Mom to explain competition if you still can't understand.

 

[UpAndAbout]

Pretty hard to buy products that no one offers. Why would a company offer a policy to cover things they could make more money by not covering?

Free market.

Demand.

You'll never get it.

No kidding. Actually there are lots of medical insurances you can buy if your employer does not provide this. My daughter has her own she pays for herself. But why can't it be competitive like car insurance? People could shop for the coverage they need and want.