Who should be responsible for pension bills in Detroit?

[hazlnut]

For those who understand why there is no such thing as a social security trust fund, this is going to scare the snot out of you. For those who believe in the fantasy land belief that government loaning itself money is an asset, nothing is going to get through to you anyway, so just have a cookie and smile. However, here is the reality.

All those years of negotiations between government workers at the local, State and Federal level, including and particularly teachers, the reality is that government never saved a dime to pay for it. Just like social security, all those retirements were simply promised against future taxpayer money. And like Social Security, IOUs from government to itself were written. My mother was a physical therapist for the Kalamazoo school system, and she’s learning now that there are no assets behind her pension as well.

Which is why those plans are so generous. The people who promised them didn’t pay for them, and they knew they’d be long gone before the bills came due. Guess what, they are coming due. It’s not just social security that was unfunded by our parents, it’s every one of those workers, who are now coming to us to make good on promises that were made with no money to back it up.

None of this information is new. All the contracts were negotiated and agreed to by the unions without any of the governments putting up dime one to fund them. And it was public information, no one wanted to think about it. So, who should be responsible for this?

- Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?

- Today’s taxpayer who wasn’t involved at all.

Yes, it’s too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other people’s bills just because we feel sorry for them. The fact is they worked for employers and were promised pensions without anything being saved to cover them. Private sector pensions have minimum funding requirements. Government sector pensions have none. They were planning to stick us for the bill. The bureaucrats knew they’d be gone, the union reps liked telling their members what great benefits they negotiated.

It’s too bad, but it’s not our problem. Government, BTW is still doing it. When some lame Democrat says we need to bail them out, tell them to fix the hole in the boat first.

I'm generally supportive of the idea of collective bargaining to give the worker a voice and a way to maintain fair wages and safe conditions.

There's no denying the sad dark history of company towns and child labor. Employers like Walmart are immoral -- but their customers don't complain about the cheap prices.

However -- the unions in detroit, like the longshoremen in L.A., are an example of a good thing gone horribly wrong.

We all would agree that workers should be able to voice their concerns to an employer, workers should get paid what they're worth -- but Detroit builds overpriced shitty cars. The workers and unions are to blame for this. Unions got greedy and overreached--they demanded too much. They wanted to work less and get paid more. They wanted to be able to drop out of high school and make low-six figures. It's a fantasy world in some of these union shops -- people with no education making better salaries than researchers curing diseases.

I think a percentage of the pensions should go to aide to the poor and unemployed in Detroit.

Fat pensions take away the incentive to save and invest your money. But in our consumer driven economy, retailers and tourists boards love consumers not afraid to max out their credit card.

And, when factory workers are earning six-figure salaries--they buy homes. They go out to dinner, they shop and use services. This bolsters a local economy. But when it's cheaper to build cars in Mexico -- the game ends.

 

[kaz]

Employers like Walmart are immoral -- but their customers don't complain about the cheap prices

Walmart is great for this country and everyone who works for them. They are ultra low skilled employees who en masse get a shot at a job. The ones who work at it go on to get better jobs inside or outside Wal-Mart.

If Wal-Mart didn't hire them, most of them would have had a hard time getting any job. And if the government forces them to raise wages, most of the people like them coming up won't get jobs either. That being immoral is preposterous.

People are actually smart enough to take the best job open to them. If they take the Wal-Mart job, that means they didn't have a better one available. And you would deny them that? Is that really what you view as "moral?" Sorry kid, you're not worth more, so we're going to deny your ability to get any job. Here's a cookie.

Sure, that's morality.

 

[tigerbob]

So, who should be responsible for this?

- Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?

- Today’s taxpayer who wasn’t involved at all.

Yes, it’s too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other people’s bills just because we feel sorry for them.

That issue of course being that people of advanced age who worked hard for the city for 30 years or so and who were honest and reasonable should suddenly find themselves with next to no healthcare or income.

Now, am I suggesting that the city should be bailed out? No.

Am I suggesting that simply framing the question in the manner you do is a totally fucked up position that ignores the lives of many people who worked hard for years? Yes.

You said nothing. How is my framing of the question, "Fucked up?" Please explain.

I acknowledged the situation, and I asked who should be responsible for it. Why does the situation which I had nothing do do with creating mean that the bills are my problem?

You threw a rod, but didn't explain exactly what's wrong with what I said. So, why is it my problem to pay their bills when they were the ones who negotiated the deals, they were there, and I had zero to do with it?

TRY READING MY POST.

See the bit where I said I am not suggesting the city should be bailed out? Allow me to paraphrase it since that apparently wasn't clear enough. I am not suggesting the city should be bailed out by anyone, including you.

The way you phrased the question was fucked up because it pointed towards the answer you wanted to get across. Your question indicated your belief that all city of Detroit retirees "looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them".

I know that to be bullshit. Hence my statement that your question was fucked up.

 

[tigerbob]

For those who understand why there is no such thing as a social security trust fund, this is going to scare the snot out of you. For those who believe in the fantasy land belief that government loaning itself money is an asset, nothing is going to get through to you anyway, so just have a cookie and smile. However, here is the reality.

All those years of negotiations between government workers at the local, State and Federal level, including and particularly teachers, the reality is that government never saved a dime to pay for it. Just like social security, all those retirements were simply promised against future taxpayer money. And like Social Security, IOUs from government to itself were written. My mother was a physical therapist for the Kalamazoo school system, and she’s learning now that there are no assets behind her pension as well.

Which is why those plans are so generous. The people who promised them didn’t pay for them, and they knew they’d be long gone before the bills came due. Guess what, they are coming due. It’s not just social security that was unfunded by our parents, it’s every one of those workers, who are now coming to us to make good on promises that were made with no money to back it up.

None of this information is new. All the contracts were negotiated and agreed to by the unions without any of the governments putting up dime one to fund them. And it was public information, no one wanted to think about it. So, who should be responsible for this?

- Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?

- Today’s taxpayer who wasn’t involved at all.

Yes, it’s too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other people’s bills just because we feel sorry for them. The fact is they worked for employers and were promised pensions without anything being saved to cover them. Private sector pensions have minimum funding requirements. Government sector pensions have none. They were planning to stick us for the bill. The bureaucrats knew they’d be gone, the union reps liked telling their members what great benefits they negotiated.

It’s too bad, but it’s not our problem. Government, BTW is still doing it. When some lame Democrat says we need to bail them out, tell them to fix the hole in the boat first.

Yeah, you see, that's a fascinating way to frame the question.

But of course it ignores a major part of the issue, I presume by design.

That issue of course being that people of advanced age who worked hard for the city for 30 years or so and who were honest and reasonable should suddenly find themselves with next to no healthcare or income.

Now, am I suggesting that the city should be bailed out? No.

Am I suggesting that simply framing the question in the manner you do is a totally fucked up position that ignores the lives of many people who worked hard for years? Yes.

Am I suggesting that there were no freeloaders who worked for the city and who are now enjoying the benefits of a comfortable retirement they never really earned? Not at all.

But seriously, wise the fuck up. If you're going to start a thread that implies an open question, at least frame the fucking question right.

HA HA...You skirt the real issue by picking apart the question. Brilliant.
Your post comes nowhere near addressing the reality of the issue.
And nowhere close to acknowledging the reality that unfortunately these people ate shit out of luck. The people to blame are in the past. The people of the present CANNOT and SHOULD not be held responsible or liable. The taxpayers of the present are not at fault. They should not pay. We're overtaxed now and there is NO MORE MONEY.

I didn't skirt the issue. And I have no solution to offer. Unlike the majority of people on this board who quote either liberal or conservative dogma, I believe that there are many people who are retirees of the city who worked hard for years and have a right to expect that their pensions are protected, but at the same time I think bailing the city out would be like giving a free pass on decades of political madness, racial bigotry and electoral naivety.

You are blaming people as groups, not as individuals. Just because someone is right or left, or black or white, or rich or poor, or right to work or closed shop, does not make them a scumbag. But that doesn't seem to matter to you. Fair enough. It takes all sorts to make a world.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yeah, you see, that's a fascinating way to frame the question.

But of course it ignores a major part of the issue, I presume by design.

That issue of course being that people of advanced age who worked hard for the city for 30 years or so and who were honest and reasonable should suddenly find themselves with next to no healthcare or income.

Now, am I suggesting that the city should be bailed out? No.

Am I suggesting that simply framing the question in the manner you do is a totally fucked up position that ignores the lives of many people who worked hard for years? Yes.

Am I suggesting that there were no freeloaders who worked for the city and who are now enjoying the benefits of a comfortable retirement they never really earned? Not at all.

But seriously, wise the fuck up. If you're going to start a thread that implies an open question, at least frame the fucking question right.

HA HA...You skirt the real issue by picking apart the question. Brilliant.
Your post comes nowhere near addressing the reality of the issue.
And nowhere close to acknowledging the reality that unfortunately these people ate shit out of luck. The people to blame are in the past. The people of the present CANNOT and SHOULD not be held responsible or liable. The taxpayers of the present are not at fault. They should not pay. We're overtaxed now and there is NO MORE MONEY.

I didn't skirt the issue. And I have no solution to offer. Unlike the majority of people on this board who quote either liberal or conservative dogma, I believe that there are many people who are retirees of the city who worked hard for years and have a right to expect that their pensions are protected, but at the same time I think bailing the city out would be like giving a free pass on decades of political madness, racial bigotry and electoral naivety.

You are blaming people as groups, not as individuals. Just because someone is right or left, or black or white, or rich or poor, or right to work or closed shop, does not make them a scumbag. But that doesn't seem to matter to you. Fair enough. It takes all sorts to make a world.

And the point of that post was...?
If you don't have a solution, then simply comment and leave it at that.
Racial bigotry?....HUH?

 

[tinydancer]

I watched the border towns with great interest for years. They are fucked now.

I don't even know where to begin with Detroit or Buffalo. Where do you want me to start?

 

[tinydancer]

Not kidding. If they are offering properties for a dollar.....

 

[regent]

The problem belongs to the state of Michigan.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I watched the border towns with great interest for years. They are fucked now.

I don't even know where to begin with Detroit or Buffalo. Where do you want me to start?

Buffalo is a different story.
The economy of Buffalo was ruined by the Tax policies of the State government.
The State politicians went ahead and used business to fund NY's gigantic welfare state.
One by one businesses relocated to other, more business friendly states.
Fast forward to today, many parts of NY have recovered fully. Others not at all. Buffalo has come back a bit. The Casinos help. So does the presence of the banking and insurance industry.
I know people from Buffalo. They go back to visit and say it's gotten better. One thing that chases people away is the weather. Winter can be especially brutal with heavy snow.
Detroit is another animal. 50 years of political corruption. A single dominating industry supporting the local economy. Recipe for disaster.

 

[Toro]

Not kidding. If they are offering properties for a dollar.....

They were offering the same in Saskatchewan 20 years ago. Now it goes for $3000 an acre.