Who Are The Palestinians?

[Hossfly]

Hoss, many are as indiginous to Palestine as the Jews.

Beyond that - does it matter?

They are people and it's all to easy to marginalize them with these sort of arguments.

The question to ask is why is it so important to some how make them less worthy of inclusion by asking these sorts of questions?

I realize and understand that but my point is that in 1948 the Arabs living there abandoned the country "until the Jews could be swept into the sea." That act nullified any claim to the land and to the right of return. Then with the complicity of the Russians, Arafat named the people and the land, Palestine and tried to make it look like Israel was the bad guys. I won't buy that and nor should anyone. That's my personal opinion.

 

[Coyote]

Hoss, many are as indiginous to Palestine as the Jews.

Beyond that - does it matter?

They are people and it's all to easy to marginalize them with these sort of arguments.

The question to ask is why is it so important to some how make them less worthy of inclusion by asking these sorts of questions?

I realize and understand that but my point is that in 1948 the Arabs living there abandoned the country "until the Jews could be swept into the sea." That act nullified any claim to the land and to the right of return. Then with the complicity of the Russians, Arafat named the people and the land, Palestine and tried to make it look like Israel was the bad guys. I won't buy that and nor should anyone. That's my personal opinion.

I see it in terms of people. It doesn't matter if Araft named the people and the land - the people pre-existed the label. They have rights. They belong there. Now, I'm not saying the right of return is an option any more, I don't think so. But they have a right to the West Bank and the constant attempt to delegitimize them as a people who have rights is as evil as those who insist Jews should just go back to Europe.

It won't happen - there must be a just solution that recognizes and respects the shared humanity and needs of both peoples...it's the constant dehumanizing that I object to.

 

[Grendelyn]

Hoss, many are as indiginous to Palestine as the Jews.

Beyond that - does it matter?

They are people and it's all to easy to marginalize them with these sort of arguments.

The question to ask is why is it so important to some how make them less worthy of inclusion by asking these sorts of questions?

I realize and understand that but my point is that in 1948 the Arabs living there abandoned the country "until the Jews could be swept into the sea." That act nullified any claim to the land and to the right of return. Then with the complicity of the Russians, Arafat named the people and the land, Palestine and tried to make it look like Israel was the bad guys. I won't buy that and nor should anyone. That's my personal opinion.

Oh, Housefly, the more I read your posts the more I realize you have no idea what you're talking about . . . why not stick to the easy ways of communicating with those that oppose you by simply continuing to call them Nazis? ~ Susan

 

[Kondor3]

...Hoss, many are as indiginous to Palestine as the Jews. Beyond that - does it matter?

They are people and it's all to easy to marginalize them with these sort of arguments...

Collectively... politically, diplomatically, economically, militarily, socially...Palestinian behaviors (international terrorism beyond their own field of conflict) and intransigence have served to cause the Palestinians to marginalize themselves; a state of affairs that their adversaries merely play upon for their own purposes; exactly as the cynical Palestinians themselves do. As in most things, the Israelis simply do this better than the Palestinians, who seem fated to perpetual comparison as the under-performers in that arena.

...The question to ask is why is it so important to some how make them less worthy of inclusion by asking these sorts of questions?...

This is war. A long-running, hundred-year-long (or better) war, with bursts of relative peace in-between sorties. War is ugly. Brutal. An abomination in the eyes of God, Man and Nature - although the religion practiced by the majority of the Palestinians does not view war with the same condemnatory perspective - another important distinction.

...I realize and understand that but my point is that in 1948 the Arabs living there abandoned the country "until the Jews could be swept into the sea." That act nullified any claim to the land and to the right of return....

I see it in terms of people...

That is your perspective. Others see it in terms of nations or peoples (collectives), rather than 'people' (individuals).

Both perspectives have merit, but matters on a national scale can only be addressed on the macro (nation, or peoples) level, which, of course, is more impersonal. This is difficult for humanitarianism-first types (usually good people) to deal with.

...It doesn't matter if Araft named the people and the land - the people pre-existed the label...

True. Also largely irrelevant, in conflicts between peoples over a narrow slice of land, in which coexistence has proven impossible, and only one will come out the winner.

...They have rights...

Fewer than you would like to believe, in the realm of Real World practicalities, in this context.

They abandoned some of those rights when they ran in 1948. They lost other rights when they acceded to Jordanian rule and citizenship in 1949-1950. They lost still more rights when they backed the wrong side in 1967. They weakened what remained through years of intransigence and foolhardy inflexibility and lack of willingness to compromise. They threw away still more as a result of Intifada I and II, and Gaza Wars I and II.

Whatever 'rights' they still have (of an enforceable and 'real' and practical nature) amount to little more than the right to live and breathe and eat and drink.

...They belong there...

No longer, practically speaking.

Israel tried for decades to get them to negotiate a viable and sustainable solution for both sides, and Palestinian intransigence sabotaged most such efforts. Although the Israelis do not have a pure, clean record in this respect either, they can demonstrate a history far more inclined to compromise than their adversaries, and, eventually, the Israelis lost their taste for such compromise after 1967.

Still, the Israelis kept at it for another couple of decades, until the era of the Intifadas, with decreasing enthusiasm and hopes for any success, but still hoping against hope that something could still be worked out - almost certain that those hopes were forlorn, but committed to trying, nevertheless.

Israel pretty much gave up on negotiating with the Palestinians after the Intifadas, reaching the conclusion that coexistence was probably now impossible, and - subsequently resurrecting an earlier and harsher Zionist mindset as a survival tactic in light of the impossibility of compromise - has been seizing land ever since, with an eye towards completing the Reconquista of Eretz Yisrael (see the 1922 LoN partition map for a practical and working visual image of what that means).

This is war - a war of peoples and cultures and economics and religion - and the Jews of Israel have already won that war - years ago.

What is left of Rump Palestine - a few scattered, non-contiguous, unsustainable scraps of land, holding an oversized defeated populace - is akin to a chicken that has just had its head cut off.

The headless Palestinian chicken runs and flops about the barnyard, spraying blood from its open neck wound, flapping its wings, kicking up a great deal of dust, and making a bloody mess of things, to no useful purpose. It simply doesn't realize that it's dead yet. Eventually, it has the decency to stop running, it lays down, and goes quiet. A blessing.

Any remaining 'rights' that the Palestinians have are largely limited to the right to live, breath, eat, drink and sleep - to survive - to live. Any other rights related to land-holdings and remaining in-place are largely of a paper-only nature, quickly evaporating into nothingness, unenforceable, and largely meaningless in the practical world, while they remain there.

There is too much bloody history between the Jews of Israel and the Muslims of Rump Palestine, for any practical person with a lick of common sense, to ever expect the Israeli Lion and the Palestinian Bobcat to lie down next to each other and to live in peace forevermore. That may have been possible in 1948. It is now perceived as an absolute impossibility by many people.

And, if they cannot be counted-upon to live peacefully side-by-side - if we would otherwise condemn them to perpetual warfare - then the stronger side is naturally going to take steps to ensure that ITS descendants are not condemned to such a fate. That means pushing the other side out, doesn't it? Highly unattractive, of course, but logical, and, from their perspective, absolutely necessary, to long-term peace, and even necessary to long-term survival. Not optional, but necessary.

It's an damned ugly proposition, but, from the Israeli perspective, there is, quite probably, no other way to cut the Gordian Knot in the long run - pretty much everything else has already been tried, one or more times, the Palestinians have shown themselves time-and-again to be treacherous, lying negotiating partners - even while the Israelis were still in Honest Compromise Mode prior to 1967 and the Intifadas beginning in the 1980s - and what few options remain on the table would compromise Israel and its security, to an unsustainable, unacceptable degree.

When you run out of options, you harden your heart, and begin taking more extreme measures. While I seriously doubt that the Israelis have it in them to undertake the actual slaughter of the populations inside what's left of Rump Palestine, the only alternative may end-up being Expulsion, as ugly as that is, and the Devil take the hindmost. And, if not en masse, then bit by bit, as seems to have already been unfolding for some years now.

...Now, I'm not saying the right of return is an option any more, I don't think so...

Agreed.

Right of Return is an anachronistic fantasy, with an expiration date of June 5-10, 1967.

Trouble is, a great many so-called 'Palestinians' continue to delude themselves that this is a possibility, and refuse to accept anything less, and continue to fight for that.

Reminds me of the political and militancy doings of the 'Biafra' ruckus of the 1967-1970 timeframe, in some ways. A failed state wannabe that never had enough muscle to set up for themselves; a joke, albeit gallows humor; a sick, sad 'joke'.

We can see that impractical mindset right here - on this board system - in the writings of several of our colleagues - who like to pretend that old Ottoman Turk or British Mandate legal standings and status have any bearing whatsoever in connection with land and rights that changed hands as the result of warfare in the late 1940s and beyond, or who like to amuse themselves and waste their time bemoaning the unenforceable nature of a variety of UN resolutions arranged to favor Arab interests to the prejudice of Israel.

The Right of Return is as dead as Julius Caesar.

...But they have a right to the West Bank...

This (the end-game in the long-running Israel-Palestine conflict) will determine that.

And, in truth, the game is already over.

Israel has won.

The victors in a war dictate terms, not the losers.

And, like a farmer, trying to get the headless chicken to lie down, the Israelis are grabbing an acre at a time, and a city block at a time, and re-shaping The Barrier as they go - to nudge the headless chicken to realize that it's dead, and to stop - in this case, to pack-up and leave.

Is that a dirty deal?

Well, yeah.

But, from the Israeli perspective, after years and years of trying to negotiate and to compromise, and getting suicide bombs and rockets and death and violence directed upon them for their troubles, the Israelis have long-since given up on even trying (seriously, anyway) - and have reached the sad, correct conclusion that the Palestinians have to go.

If they can simply force them into Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt, that would be best, rather than resort to more extreme measures.

A touch of humanitarianism on their part, in the midst of something rather distasteful (slow expulsion) that the intransigent Palestinians have forced them into.

...and the constant attempt to delegitimize them as a people who have rights...

There's not much of a 'people' left to fuss over, at this point, and not much land to fuss over, either.

As to attempts to 'de-legitimize' them, well, this is war, and war is an ugly thing; one can hardly conduct - much less win - a war, without positioning your enemy as less 'good' or less 'legitimate' then yourselves. Did we (the US) view the Germans or Japanese as 'legitimate' - just silly and wrong-headed - when we fought to the death in 1941-1945? No.

...is as evil as those who insist Jews should just go back to Europe...

War is, indeed, an evil thing, and the hardening of one's heart, in order to be able to conduct - and win - a war, is not a pretty thing.

...It won't happen...

Perhaps. But, I confess, I do find myself wondering. One need look no further than the Shrinking Map of Palestine - served up with variations by a number of Palestinian propaganda websites - to see that this may not be true, after all - to see that that very thing - expulsion, fast or slow - is long-since underway, and fairly close to completion.

But, I, like everyone else here, lack a crystal ball, and cannot say, for certain.

...there must be a just solution that recognizes and respects the shared humanity and needs of both peoples...

That is a just and admirable goal.

I also believe that such a solution is now nearly - or completely - impossible - and highly unlikely to materialize, on this plane of existence in which we live.

If I'm wrong - and we can only hope that I am, for the sake of everyone concerned - then I"m wrong, and the world eventually sees Peace in that long-troubled region.

But, unfortunately, I don't think that I am.

And if I'm right, then, the stronger of the two sides will control what happens next.

If the weaker Palestinian side cannot be trusted to live in Peace alongside its Israeli-Jewish neighbor, then the Palestinians will have to go.

If the Palestinians have to go, then there are one of two ways in which that will happen.

1. the Palestinians will die

2. the Palestinians will be expelled - en masse, or slowly, bit by bit

Within the narrow domain of those two very nasty choices, which is preferable?

The option in which they die-off - or the option in which they are still alive, at the end of the sequence?

If there is nothing left on the table but (1) and (2) above - I choose (2), myself; feeling terrible about the interrupted lives and the waste of decades of strife, but rejoicing in the Fresh Start that those displaced people can eventually aspire to. Better than rotting in refugee camps and run-down refugee-like towns for another 66 years or more.

It may come to pass, that we would be better off, as a collective of United Nations, to arrange for the humane, safe re-location of the so-called Palestinians - sending some of them to country A and B and C and D - whomever is willing to take-in a few hundred thousand - and to help them to get that Fresh Start - rather than leaving them rot in-place.

That would (a) finalize Israel's boundaries as Eretz Yisrael - the most they've ever hoped for, (b) get the Palestinians out of the way of Israel, (c) get the Palestinians out of harms' way, (d) split them up into a handful of new immigrant populations in different countries, thereby defusing their militancy, (e) compensate the Palestinians for their troubles and give them a fresh start at happier lives someplace else, and (f) bring Peace to that troubled region, now that the Losing Side has cleared-off and has ceased hostilities.

Which is more humane... to leave them rotting in-place, or to become pro-active on their behalf, in a manner acceptable to the victors in that war and the controllers of that land?

...it's the constant dehumanizing that I object to.

Yes. A necessary evil, while conducting a war, and on the road to winning a war. Since time immemorial. Even in connection with long-running, century-long wars.

When one choose a side in a war, one commits to portraying the Enemy as less (less desirable, less right, less honorable, less good) than one's own side. It was the same 5000 years ago. It will be the same 5000 years in the future, if we haven't managed to curb our aggressive natures by then or destroyed ourselves.

To portray war - and its arguing amongst those supporting different sides - as anything else, may arguably be viewed as delusional, or, more kindly, simply fooling one's self.

=============================

< whew... turns off running-off-at-the-keyboard switch in the brain, goes for morning coffee >

 

[MJB12741]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Good question. The "Palestinians" were there when the Jews showed up. Later on Jesus showed up. Some Palestinian Jews and others adopted Christianity. Then later some adopted Islam.

During this time people came and went but a core group of people (Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others) stayed and put down roots. These are the people who officially became Palestinians when Palestine was separated from the Ottoman Empire in 1924. Palestine was their country.

Then a bunch of criminals came down from Europe...

 

[docmauser1]

Good question. The "Palestinians" were there when the Jews showed up. Later on Jesus showed up. Some Palestinian Jews and others adopted Christianity. Then later some adopted Islam. During this time people came and went but a core group of people (Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others) stayed and put down roots. These are the people who officially became Palestinians when Palestine was separated from the Ottoman Empire in 1924. Palestine was their country. Then a bunch of criminals came down from Europe...

In memorable words of the exiled israeli MP Azmi Bishara on the israeli TV Channel 2 "I don’t think there is a Palestinian nation at all. I think there is an Arab nation. I always thought so... I think it’s a colonialist invention - a Palestinian nation. When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from?"
The invention of the "palestinian" people! hehe

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good question. The "Palestinians" were there when the Jews showed up. Later on Jesus showed up. Some Palestinian Jews and others adopted Christianity. Then later some adopted Islam. During this time people came and went but a core group of people (Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others) stayed and put down roots. These are the people who officially became Palestinians when Palestine was separated from the Ottoman Empire in 1924. Palestine was their country. Then a bunch of criminals came down from Europe...

In memorable words of the exiled israeli MP Azmi Bishara on the israeli TV Channel 2 "I don’t think there is a Palestinian nation at all. I think there is an Arab nation. I always thought so... I think it’s a colonialist invention - a Palestinian nation. When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from?"
The invention of the "palestinian" people! hehe

The first Palestine Citizenship Order was enacted by Britain on 24 July 1925; it was the first official enactment that outlined the legal definition of a Palestinian. Its first article defined a Palestinian as a "Turkish subject habitually resident in the territory of Palestine." It defined the territorial criteria for citizenship, and appeared to be nondiscriminatory legislation, which provided granting of citizenship to an applicant, irrespective of their race, religion or language.

History of Palestinian nationality - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

You're welcome.

 

[aris2chat]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

 

[MJB12741]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

All true. Everything Israel does for improvement,, the Palestinians trash. Let us see what Tinmore will deny here.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

All true. Everything Israel does for improvement,, the Palestinians trash. Let us see what Tinmore will deny here.

You have that backwards. It is Israel that bombs or bulldozes everything Palestinian.

Palestinians build. Israel destroys.

 

[Hossfly]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

All true. Everything Israel does for improvement,, the Palestinians trash. Let us see what Tinmore will deny here.

You have that backwards. It is Israel that bombs or bulldozes everything Palestinian.

Palestinians build. Israel destroys.

You smokin' dried toadstools again, tinny?

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

Ok...Aris...but what does that have to do with what I said?

One can argue with equal validity that many of the Jews are not "indiginous" - they are the result of immigration from outside Israel and mostly European descent. So..what is your point? The rest of what you'r saying - what does it have to do with what I said?

 

[aris2chat]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

Ok...Aris...but what does that have to do with what I said?

One can argue with equal validity that many of the Jews are not "indiginous" - they are the result of immigration from outside Israel and mostly European descent. So..what is your point? The rest of what you'r saying - what does it have to do with what I said?

Americans can be born outside of the country, I was. There was never a question that I was american, though it was only half my story. I don't have olive skin and dark hair. I don't dress in arab modesty garb. I've never behaved as most of my cousins, except perhaps some of the boys. Arabic was not even the first or second language in the house. Most of my early arabic was from kids in my neighborhood that I played with or later babysat and tutored. I was never confined to the small table or other room when the family got together or when we went to the home of other people. I was not told to sit quiet in the corner or confined to the kitchen to help with the food trays. Unless my father's name was mentioned no one would know I was anything but an american. I grew up with few restrictions.
I from three nations, none of which I was born in.
Jews have always had a sense of being from the holy land. Generations and centuries apart, they still felt connected to their heritage. They still identified with the jews of ancient Israel and with the jews of the middle east.

An american indian is still a member of the tribe even if they were not born, raise or ever been there, or how many times removed. They still have the privileges of being a native american. My maternal grandmother was half native american, which means I am as well

My birth certificate is from europe so I could claim nationality from that country if I so wanted. I would not give up my american passport though.

I understand the jews feeling they are from Israel. It make sense to me, but then I have a great mix of origins in my bloodline, even a bit of palestinian. You don't always have to have lived in a place to feel connected to it. Jews are connected as a people, by religion and a long history that is a large part of their upbringing.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

Ok...Aris...but what does that have to do with what I said?

One can argue with equal validity that many of the Jews are not "indiginous" - they are the result of immigration from outside Israel and mostly European descent. So..what is your point? The rest of what you'r saying - what does it have to do with what I said?

Americans can be born outside of the country, I was. There was never a question that I was american, though it was only half my story. I don't have olive skin and dark hair. I don't dress in arab modesty garb. I've never behaved as most of my cousins, except perhaps some of the boys. Arabic was not even the first or second language in the house. Most of my early arabic was from kids in my neighborhood that I played with or later babysat and tutored. I was never confined to the small table or other room when the family got together or when we went to the home of other people. I was not told to sit quiet in the corner or confined to the kitchen to help with the food trays. Unless my father's name was mentioned no one would know I was anything but an american. I grew up with few restrictions.
I from three nations, none of which I was born in.
Jews have always had a sense of being from the holy land. Generations and centuries apart, they still felt connected to their heritage. They still identified with the jews of ancient Israel and with the jews of the middle east.

An american indian is still a member of the tribe even if they were not born, raise or ever been there, or how many times removed. They still have the privileges of being a native american. My maternal grandmother was half native american, which means I am as well

My birth certificate is from europe so I could claim nationality from that country if I so wanted. I would not give up my american passport though.

I understand the jews feeling they are from Israel. It make sense to me, but then I have a great mix of origins in my bloodline, even a bit of palestinian. You don't always have to have lived in a place to feel connected to it. Jews are connected as a people, by religion and a long history that is a large part of their upbringing.

I can understand that. People are connected to places. That's why you can't simply move people around like human pawns and relocate them on a whim. Surely the Palestinians feel a connection to the land they came from as well and have lived on for generations. Why is their connection denied?

 

[aris2chat]

It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land." Therefore it is important to ask the question --- who are the Palestinians? Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity as there were Jews, or Hebrews if you prefer? If not, one should ask just who is stealing who's land?

Again, easy answers
Who are the Palestinians? Human beings

Were there any indigenous Muslim Palestinians in the land since antiquity?
Yes.

From Wikipedia: History of Palestine from Ancient to Medievil

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, early Muslims (Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids), Crusaders, later Muslims (Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans), the British, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians

The early Muslim presence stems from mid 7th century. The Late Antiquity period generally refers to 2nd-8th centuries.

The problem is you're blending religion with ethnicity in order to make a justification for who is there first.

Islam and Judaism are religions.
Palestinians and Jews are ethnic identities.

The better questions would be:
Which religion predates which in Palestine? Judaism.
Which people predates which in Palestine? Unknown.

The reason it's unknown is there's been a constant transition of people throughout that area. People coming in or coming through spread their religion in the process. People who are indiginous adopt it or reject it or create a hybrid.

Prior to that the 7th century....there were the people who eventually became Muslim. They didn't just spring up from whole cloth out of nowhere and the Jews weren't the sole ancient inhabitants.

It's why I think this sort of argument serves only one purpose: an attempt by one side or the other to delegitimize the existance of the other as a people by claiming either the Palestinians are an invented people or the Jews are invading Europeans.

You say:
It is alleged by the Palestinians who duly elected Hamas to lead them & represent their wishes that Israel is stealing, or occupying "their land.

I've also heard:
The Palestinians are squatters sitting on Jewish land.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Israel IS occupying territory. It is occupying the West Bank and it still exerts a great deal of control over the Gaza strip. The West Bank was referred to by the Israeli High Court as "Occupied Territory".

On the other hand - Israel proper is a recognized state since 1948. Is that land "stolen"? Complicated history there and it's been pointed out land ownership records and history is complicated and not very clear. Historically - the Jews did purchase a great deal of land, but also - land was confiscated when Palestinians were driven out of or chose to flee their villages.

So who stole who's land? Antiquity is irrelevant. The question itself goes nowhere. The intent of the question is clear - disenfranchise one or the other and take the whole pie. People need to sit down and negotiate. Israel is not up for grabs - however the West Bank to include enough enough territory to form a viable Palestinian state should be on the table.

Indigenous? Half are of egyptian decent. Unless they had a medical waver to go to an Israeli hospital, None younger than 66 were born in Israel.
Egypt controlled gaza for years. Palestinians were treated little better than animals. Except for roads to move military vehicles Egypt made no improvements in gaza.

Israel built airport, started a deep water port, invested in building hotels for tourism and gaming. Palestinians had well paying construction jobs and also in agriculture.

When gaza was turned over to the palestinians homes and green houses were trashed. Parks and entertainment was closed down, some hotels fell into disuse. Attacks on Israel brought the bombing of the runway. The deep water port for tourist ships was left unfinished.
Palestinians in gaza built smuggling tunnels when a blockade was implemented to prevent weapons shipments from reaching gaza. Fishing limits prevented the boats going out far enough to reach the ships in deep water. Entry into Israel was limited to prevent suicide bombers or other attacks.
Rhetoric by hamas increased and rockets continued. Israel retaliated.
Hamas might have chosen peace with both the WB and Israel but instead repeated their call for the death of all in Israel and refusing their right to exist.
Even now there is a tenuous cooperation with the WB, because hamas is out of money and needs help to restore services and to rebuild ( their tunnels). It is not out of a real desire to merge onto the road to peace. Cooperation with the PA will in their hope become a legitimate party in the WB. PLO considers them a terrorist group. They were never part of the PLO.
As the PA seeks peace, hamas is still calling for riots, kidnapping, killings and the destruction of Israel. They praised the killing of a baby in jerusalem rundown with a car by a hamas member. They praised the kidnapping and killing of teens, by hamas members.
Riots in Jerusalem and on the mount have been orchestrated by hamas and propaganda lies are spreading like wildfire, but have been proven untrue by Israelis. Despite the facts, the lies are still going round like a carrousel and inciting violence.

Like my back, the situation is "a mess". What should be attended to first without making it worse someplace else.
Lift the embargo and hamas will import weapons. Open the crossing to more human traffic and there will be more attacks on Israelis. Allow more building supplies and there will be more tunnels and little if anything for the people for housing. Talks can go now were without a complete surrenders and exit by Israelis to the hamas terrorism.

Unless hamas is serious about peace and both lays down arms and talks to the people to accept peace, there can be little progress. Israel will not sacrifice it's security. I hamas does not cooperate with the PA the purse string will be closed.

Egypt has suffered attacks and is still searching for and destroying tunnels into their country. Egypt, the PA, Israel have all suffered because of hamas violence and hate rhetoric that incites others to violence.

There can be no recognition of palestine if there is not unity government and honest negotiations towards peace with Israel. Making a few brief small motions on the part of hamas is not enough for others to trust them and work together to help gazans.

Ok...Aris...but what does that have to do with what I said?

One can argue with equal validity that many of the Jews are not "indiginous" - they are the result of immigration from outside Israel and mostly European descent. So..what is your point? The rest of what you'r saying - what does it have to do with what I said?

Americans can be born outside of the country, I was. There was never a question that I was american, though it was only half my story. I don't have olive skin and dark hair. I don't dress in arab modesty garb. I've never behaved as most of my cousins, except perhaps some of the boys. Arabic was not even the first or second language in the house. Most of my early arabic was from kids in my neighborhood that I played with or later babysat and tutored. I was never confined to the small table or other room when the family got together or when we went to the home of other people. I was not told to sit quiet in the corner or confined to the kitchen to help with the food trays. Unless my father's name was mentioned no one would know I was anything but an american. I grew up with few restrictions.
I from three nations, none of which I was born in.
Jews have always had a sense of being from the holy land. Generations and centuries apart, they still felt connected to their heritage. They still identified with the jews of ancient Israel and with the jews of the middle east.

An american indian is still a member of the tribe even if they were not born, raise or ever been there, or how many times removed. They still have the privileges of being a native american. My maternal grandmother was half native american, which means I am as well

My birth certificate is from europe so I could claim nationality from that country if I so wanted. I would not give up my american passport though.

I understand the jews feeling they are from Israel. It make sense to me, but then I have a great mix of origins in my bloodline, even a bit of palestinian. You don't always have to have lived in a place to feel connected to it. Jews are connected as a people, by religion and a long history that is a large part of their upbringing.

I can understand that. People are connected to places. That's why you can't simply move people around like human pawns and relocate them on a whim. Surely the Palestinians feel a connection to the land they came from as well and have lived on for generations. Why is their connection denied?

If they did not own the land through, the owner can ask them to leave no matter how many generations have lived and worked that land in the past.

Palestinians that could register land often would not. If someone buys the land and pays the back taxes they have the right to tell the palestinians to move.

Most of the palestinians that left to become refugee did so at arab insistence not Israeli. Those who engaged in violence and terrorism of Israeli jews were asked to leave and considered traitor to Israel. Muslims from the the west are having their right of return revoked and entry denied for their actions helping groups like ISIS.

Many could have returned and were prevented by the arabs not the Israelis. They would have had to be Israel and not maintain a claim to being "palestinian" that seek the extermination of Israel and jews. About two thousand palestinian refugees were part of family reunification and allowed back to Israel each year. Most never applied.

 

[Coyote]

If they did not own the land through, the owner can ask them to leave no matter how many generations have lived and worked that land in the past.

In most civilized countries - there is a limitation on that and if a people has lived there long enough without contest - they have rights to that land. Otherwise - every bit of land ownership could potentially be contested. How far back do you go and how do you account for changes in national boundaries and rule?

Palestinians that could register land often would not. If someone buys the land and pays the back taxes they have the right to tell the palestinians to move.

Agree, in that case yes.

Most of the palestinians that left to become refugee did so at arab insistence not Israeli. Those who engaged in violence and terrorism of Israeli jews were asked to leave and considered traitor to Israel.

That is not entirely true. Some Palestinians left at the urgings of Arabs others were driven out by the Israelis irregardless of any engagement in "violence and terrorism". Entire villages were cleared in a systemic and planned campaign.

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.


The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
4. Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
5. Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
6. Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
7. Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
8. The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
9. Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
10. Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
11. Various local factors and general fear of the future.[6]

"In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations (concerning the cause of the Nakba) triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the “New Historians,” the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”[7]​

Muslims from the the west are having their right of return revoked and entry denied for their actions helping groups like ISIS.

Many could have returned and were prevented by the arabs not the Israelis. They would have had to be Israel and not maintain a claim to being "palestinian" that seek the extermination of Israel and jews. About two thousand palestinian refugees were part of family reunification and allowed back to Israel each year. Most never applied.

That too is not entirely true.

Palestinian right of return - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

During the Palestinian exodus, Israeli leaders decided against the return of the refugees. During her visit at Haïfa on May 1, 1948, Golda Meir declared: "The Jews should treat the remaining Arabs 'with civil and human equality', but 'it is not our job to worry about the return [of those who have fled]".[34] A group consisting of "local authorities, the kibbutz movements, the settlement departments of the National institutions, Haganah commanders and influential figures such as Yosef Weitz and Ezra Danin started lobbying against repatriation.[35] A Transfer Committee and a policy of faits accomplis were set up to prevent a refugee return.[36] In July, it had become an official policy:[37] "Absentees' property" was managed by Israeli government and numerous Palestinian villages were leveled.


A parallel has been drawn by some commentators between the state and private restitutions made from Germany to Israel over Holocaust thefts and the compensation due to Palestinians evicted in the formation of Israel.[38] Others have compared Palestinians' claims for compensation to the claims of ethnic Germans who were expelled from eastern Europe in the aftermath of the Holocaust and World War II.[39]


​

 

[MJB12741]

If they did not own the land through, the owner can ask them to leave no matter how many generations have lived and worked that land in the past.

In most civilized countries - there is a limitation on that and if a people has lived there long enough without contest - they have rights to that land. Otherwise - every bit of land ownership could potentially be contested. How far back do you go and how do you account for changes in national boundaries and rule?

Palestinians that could register land often would not. If someone buys the land and pays the back taxes they have the right to tell the palestinians to move.

Agree, in that case yes.

Most of the palestinians that left to become refugee did so at arab insistence not Israeli. Those who engaged in violence and terrorism of Israeli jews were asked to leave and considered traitor to Israel.

That is not entirely true. Some Palestinians left at the urgings of Arabs others were driven out by the Israelis irregardless of any engagement in "violence and terrorism". Entire villages were cleared in a systemic and planned campaign.

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.


The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
4. Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
5. Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
6. Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
7. Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
8. The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
9. Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
10. Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
11. Various local factors and general fear of the future.[6]

"In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations (concerning the cause of the Nakba) triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the “New Historians,” the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”[7]​

Muslims from the the west are having their right of return revoked and entry denied for their actions helping groups like ISIS.

Many could have returned and were prevented by the arabs not the Israelis. They would have had to be Israel and not maintain a claim to being "palestinian" that seek the extermination of Israel and jews. About two thousand palestinian refugees were part of family reunification and allowed back to Israel each year. Most never applied.

That too is not entirely true.

Palestinian right of return - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

During the Palestinian exodus, Israeli leaders decided against the return of the refugees. During her visit at Haïfa on May 1, 1948, Golda Meir declared: "The Jews should treat the remaining Arabs 'with civil and human equality', but 'it is not our job to worry about the return [of those who have fled]".[34] A group consisting of "local authorities, the kibbutz movements, the settlement departments of the National institutions, Haganah commanders and influential figures such as Yosef Weitz and Ezra Danin started lobbying against repatriation.[35] A Transfer Committee and a policy of faits accomplis were set up to prevent a refugee return.[36] In July, it had become an official policy:[37] "Absentees' property" was managed by Israeli government and numerous Palestinian villages were leveled.


A parallel has been drawn by some commentators between the state and private restitutions made from Germany to Israel over Holocaust thefts and the compensation due to Palestinians evicted in the formation of Israel.[38] Others have compared Palestinians' claims for compensation to the claims of ethnic Germans who were expelled from eastern Europe in the aftermath of the Holocaust and World War II.[39]


​

Is it not true that the bottom line is any & all land belongs to whoever rules it at any given point in time? Consider all the Muslim lands conquered by force & stolen from non Muslim native populations. As long as Muslims rule their countries, the lands are theirs. And as long as Israel rules their country, the land is Israels.

 

[Kondor3]

...People are connected to places. That's why you can't simply move people around like human pawns and relocate them on a whim...

Can't simply relocate people?

You might want to ask that question of the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from Czechoslovakia's 'Sudatenland' by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from East Prussia (now Poland, after the land-grab) by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Muslims relocated to Pakistan and the Hindus relocated to India, when the old British Imperial India achieved her independence in 1947 and immediately split into modern-day Pakistan and India as we now know them, or the Jews of much of Islam, expelled or forced or nudged out of several Muslim countries, during the period 1948-1975... all of that involving millions, and all of that well within the bounds of Living Memory.

So long as the relocated people - the Palestinians in this case - receive Wergeld (compensation) and high-quality logistics support and are given land that they can truly call their own - someplace else - and are provided with large-scale assistance to build infrastructure sufficient to support them, and so long as they are assisted for a couple of decades after the Grand Moving Day, to get them well-launched into the world - relocation would be a blessing, both for the otherwise largely weak and powerless and degenerating-declining Palestinians, and their adversaries.

The Israelis and Palestinians hate each other too much to live peacefully, side by side. Too much blood has been spilled. Therefore, if that is true, logic indicates the removal of one or the other. Given that the Israelis are already the victors in this long-running fracas, and given that they are a regional superpower which can no longer be dislodged without the most extraordinary efforts, and given that the victors of a conflict dictate terms, not the losers, the burden will be upon the Palestinians, to take the "sucker's walk", and to leave.

So long as the Palestinians are well supported in this relocation by the world community, the idea of relocation stands a better chance of working than any other option still on the table. A one-state solution hasn't been on the table since the 1948-1949 timeframe. The idea of a two-state solution died with the Intifadas and the Gaza Wars. All that's left is for either the Israelis or the Palestinians to pack up and move out of harm's way, and, given the vastly superior Israeli position, the Palestinians have drawn the short straw. Who knows? Perhaps the Egyptians can be persuaded or paid to part with a slice of the Sinai, or some other nearby country(ies) might be persuaded to take them (or some of them) in. Cash, and trade incentives, would work wonders, in greasing that particular wheel.

The sooner that relocation can be imagined and consensus built and the sooner that the practicalities can be conjured, in order to get underway with the damned thing, the better - and what better 'umbrella' under which to organize that humanitarian effort, than the United Nations itself? Hell, the Israelis could probably be persuaded to float the first few billions, to get the thing started, and I'm sure that the US, and much of the EU, would be willing to chip-in, if asked, in connection with a serious and viable effort along those lines... a chance to do something nice for the so-called Palestinian People that actually stands a decent chance of doing some sustainable good.