Who Are The Palestinians?

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P F Tinmore, et al,

You got to be kidding me!

What was different that one declaration would be valid and the other not?
(COMMENT)
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  • The Jewish Agency and Provisional Government of Israel represented the People of Israel
  • The All Palestine Government (APG) was a de facto apparatus of the Egyptian Occupation Government in Gaza.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • The APG had no standing or recognition with the UN. The Arab Higher Committee (AHC) was, at the time, the recognized representative of the Arab Palestinians. The AHC declined to establish an Arab Agency or to negotiate in the implementation process.
  • Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis. [See Paragraph 22, The First Attempt to Create Self-Governing Institutions, 1922-23. --- The Political History of Palestine under British Administration --- A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947]
  • The text of this resolution was communicated by the Secretary-General on 9 January to the Government of the United Kingdom, as the Mandatory Power, to the Arab Higher Committee, and to the Jewish Agency for Palestine. The invitation extended by the resolution was promptly accepted by the Government of the United Kingdom and by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, both of which designated representatives to assist the commission. The representative designated by the Government of the United Kingdom was Sir Alexander Cadogan. The representative designated by the Jewish Agency for Palestine was Mr. Moshe Shertok. As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January:

      • “ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”
    • No further communication has been addressed to or received from the Arab Higher Committee by the Commission. The Commission will, at the appropriate time, set forth in a separate document its views with regard to the implementations of this refusal by the Arab Higher Committee. (See First Report of UNPC to UNSC A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948)
    • In 1959, Egyptian President Nasser officially annulled the All-Palestine Government by Presidential Decree.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, there you have it.

Todays, "The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt." (See PLO Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) --- Borders). The issue of the All-Palestine Government is not even a consideration.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

You got to be kidding me!

What was different that one declaration would be valid and the other not?
(COMMENT)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • The Jewish Agency and Provisional Government of Israel represented the People of Israel
  • The All Palestine Government (APG) was a de facto apparatus of the Egyptian Occupation Government in Gaza.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • The APG had no standing or recognition with the UN. The Arab Higher Committee (AHC) was, at the time, the recognized representative of the Arab Palestinians. The AHC declined to establish an Arab Agency or to negotiate in the implementation process.
  • Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis. [See Paragraph 22, The First Attempt to Create Self-Governing Institutions, 1922-23. --- The Political History of Palestine under British Administration --- A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947]
  • The text of this resolution was communicated by the Secretary-General on 9 January to the Government of the United Kingdom, as the Mandatory Power, to the Arab Higher Committee, and to the Jewish Agency for Palestine. The invitation extended by the resolution was promptly accepted by the Government of the United Kingdom and by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, both of which designated representatives to assist the commission. The representative designated by the Government of the United Kingdom was Sir Alexander Cadogan. The representative designated by the Jewish Agency for Palestine was Mr. Moshe Shertok. As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January:

      • “ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”
    • No further communication has been addressed to or received from the Arab Higher Committee by the Commission. The Commission will, at the appropriate time, set forth in a separate document its views with regard to the implementations of this refusal by the Arab Higher Committee. (See First Report of UNPC to UNSC A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948)
    • In 1959, Egyptian President Nasser officially annulled the All-Palestine Government by Presidential Decree.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, there you have it.

Todays, "The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt." (See PLO Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) --- Borders). The issue of the All-Palestine Government is not even a consideration.

Most Respectfully,
R
You are jumping that time line again.
 
<snip>...Billo is a Diamond

3i7zenReaUuI0.gif
 
RoccoR said:
The APG submitted their Declaration in September, on territory relinquished from the Trusteeship and Declared by the Jewish Agency.

The trusteeship had no territory.
 
theliq, et al,

I'm not at all familiar with the term: CURR,SIR You'll have to explain that one to me.

You are an apologist for the Zionists...........and a CURR,SIR.........Most Respectfully
(COMMENT)

If my manners bother you, please feel free to ignore them.

As for being an "apologist for the Zionists" --- I'm not sure. That is both subjective and in the eye of the outside observer. I don't personally agree that I am an apologist for anyone (other than myself).

Clearly, I find it objectionable that one of the world's leading Jihadist and Terrorist cultures (Palestinians) find it necessary to take a conflict that the Hostile Palestinians started, and try to blame the outcome of their actions on the opponent. Unable to take responsibility for their conduct, having established a past history of criminal behaviors and practices, they now try to use the very law that they broke when the Palestinians killed half the Israeli Olympic Team in Munich; of when they hijacked El Al Flight 426 (1968), Dawson's Field Hijackings (1970), Air France Flight 139 (1976), Lufthansa Flight 181 (1977), TWA Flight 847 (1985), EgyptAir Flight 648 (1985), and Pan Am Flight 73 (1986). Or who remembers when the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) hijacked the Italian MS Achille Lauro liner off the coast of Egypt. And just how many rocket and mortars have the Palestinians fired?
And there just isn't enough space here for me to append the charts for all the bombings:
  • 2001 (40 bombings)
  • 2002 (47 bombings)
  • 2003 (23 bombings)
  • 2004 (17 bombings)
  • 2005 (9 bombings)
I'm not sure why the Israelis need an apologist; least at all me. The only reason I speak-up is that I see this cowardly group of failed Arab Palestinian nationalists making these wild claims and crying genocide, apartheid, war crime and such, when in fact, the preponderance of the accumulated events were instigated by the Palestinians. In fact, it is the claim of the pro-Palestinians that they can use any and all means necessary, to attack any Israeli anywhere, and it not be a crime. Yet --- let the Israeli defend themselves and it becomes a war crime.

I know there must be another culture out their that is just as cowardly than the Palestinians, that cry more every time they get spanked by the Israelis, and has a longer history of criminal behaviors --- but, I can't think of one --- off-hand.

Most Respectfully,
R


I usually dislike quoting huge posts like this since some of the essence sometimes gets lost with the "click here to expand" button having to be used, but this one is so good I just had to and I have only one thing to say about it:


:udaman:
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Technically, you are correct.

RoccoR said:
The APG submitted their Declaration in September, on territory relinquished from the Trusteeship and Declared by the Jewish Agency.

The trusteeship had no territory.
(COMMENT)

On termination of the Mandate, the Independence of Israel took effect. That territory never transitioned under Article 77.

Article 77 UN Charter
1. The trusteeship system shall apply to such territories in the following categories as may be placed thereunder by means of trusteeship agreements:
a. territories now held under mandate;
I should have said "Mandate."

Most Respectfully,
R
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Technically, you are correct.

RoccoR said:
The APG submitted their Declaration in September, on territory relinquished from the Trusteeship and Declared by the Jewish Agency.

The trusteeship had no territory.
(COMMENT)

On termination of the Mandate, the Independence of Israel took effect. That territory never transitioned under Article 77.

Article 77 UN Charter
1. The trusteeship system shall apply to such territories in the following categories as may be placed thereunder by means of trusteeship agreements:
a. territories now held under mandate;
I should have said "Mandate."

Most Respectfully,
R
It doesn't matter. The Mandate had no territory.
 
On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine. All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it. Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan’s lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees.

And I believe this ^^^ has a lot to do with whatever claims the Palestinians had to the West Bank. But in all honesty, it is ancient history.
 
docmauser1, P F Tinmore, et al,

The mistake here is much more simplistic, fundamentally, than that.

The armistice lines never divided Palestine from anybody else. In the case of the West Bank and Gaza, the lines ran through Palestine. How can the Palestinians violate a line that is Palestine on both sides?
But the problem's that, major arab settlers&squatters from the hood didn't ran through palestine, they had been running to palestine, of course.
(COMMENT)

One must remember to keep in mind that:

When the Armistice lines were drawn in 1949, the term "Palestine" was still being used as defined in the original "Palestine Order in Council." It referred to the territories to which the former Mandate for Palestine applied. It wasn't a political subdivision on its own.

The "Palestine" of 1949 was a legal entity (trusteeship) but not be a sovereign state and not self-governing. For all intent and purposes, The "Palestine" of 1949 had two component parts:​
    • The apportionment that Declared Independence by the right of self-determination of the Jewish People (AKA: The new State of Israel).
    • The apportionment that declined to participate in the Partition Plan (AKA: The Arab State unrealized).
When the Armistice Lines were drawn, the Lines separated the various Arab Contingents from the the Israeli Contingents. The distinction made by P F Tinmore in the question "How can the Palestinians violate a line that is Palestine on both sides?" is a distinction without relevance. The Israelis were just as much Palestinians as the Arabs. Palestinian, a territorial name, was just as applicable to all the inhabitance of the time (Jewish and Arab). In 1949, the foreign influence were the remnants of the 5 Arab Armies that established Occupation Authorities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In addressing the P F Tinmore in the question, we have to understand that the term "Palestinians" is representational of both the Israelis and Arab. So, in fact, the question is meaningless (like drawing lines in water), except for the implied threat to the sovereignty of Israel. What the Armistice Line separated then and now are the Hostile and Belligerent Parties.​

The word game used by P F Tinmore in the question is nothing more then a fallacious philosophical dilemma by the aggressors to justify Jihad and armed struggle. It is an outcome of the concept that all the former Territory under the old Mandate is an objective of the contemporary Arab Palestinian of today; that the territorial sovereignty of Israel today, represents an occupation by force of territory that is rightfully Arab Palestinian.

In terms of the West Bank, the distinction made by P F Tinmore in the question "How can the Palestinians violate a line that is Palestine on both sides?" is even made more dubious when one considers that the last sovereignty over the territory, prior to the Palestinian Declaration of Independence in 1988, was Jordanian. Rightfully, the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank should actually be called the "former Jordanian of Palestine." The historical geography of the West Bank is that what the UN calls the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, is the exact same territory as that Annexed by the Jordanians in 1950.

On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine. All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it. Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan’s lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees.

When the Palestinians accepted Jordanian Citizenship, they exercised their right of self-determination, but also relinquished any "refugee status." Under the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, the:

C. This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms of section A if:

(1) He has voluntarily re-availed himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; or
(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; or
(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality; or
(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he leftor outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution; or​

(TO THE QUESTION: Who are the Palestinians)

And again, the Palestinians shot themselves in the foot. When the "Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented" (right of self-determination), acquired a new nationality, and enjoyed the protection of the country of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, their new nationality.

While were might find it difficult to determine "who is a Palestinian," by the process of elimination we can rule-out what we call the Arab Palestinian of the West Bank. They abdicated their relationship as Palestinians when they accepted Jordanian citizenship.

(BOTTOM LINE)

There are no Arab Palestinians in the West Bank. They alerted that status in and by themselves in a Parliamentary process. And as for the P F Tinmore in the question "How can the Palestinians violate a line that is Palestine on both sides?" is a distinction without relevance; in that since 1950, there were no Palestinians on the Eastern side (towards Jordan) of the Armistice Line.

Most Respectfully,
R
"...half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine."

Indeed.
 
Who are the Palestinians?
Lamis Deek, "One Democratic State in all of Palestine"



Let's talk about the Christians in the Gaza strip.

The Islamization of Gaza has put increasing pressure on the tiny Christian minority.[38] Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, a rival group to Hamas,[39] announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. "I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza." [40] Sheik Saqer has asserted that there is "no need" for Christians in Gaza to maintain Christian institutions and demanded that Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."[41]

Link: Islamization of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
 
RoccoR said:
The APG submitted their Declaration in September, on territory relinquished from the Trusteeship and Declared by the Jewish Agency.

The trusteeship had no territory.

And? We are talking about the fact that the Palestinians tried to declare independence on territory already declared independent 4 months earlier.

BTW, can you post the 1948 declaration , I tried to google it but I couldn't find it. Thanks
 
What are the Palestinian Leaders doing today that actually result in something tangible and in the best interest of the Palestinians. The Palestinian can stand and look 360 degrees - an not see evidence of a thriving and productive government. All they see is war and conflict of their own making. To complain that events did not result in an outcome meeting the "wishes or best interest of the Palestinians" is merely prima facie evidence of a unproductive people, following an inept leadership, furthering a failed state of Jihadist and terrorists.

Most Respectfully,
R

Regardless of anything else, this speaks volumes; shouted from the roof tops, the lamp shade has been removed; this is the truth.
 
RoccoR said:
The APG submitted their Declaration in September, on territory relinquished from the Trusteeship and Declared by the Jewish Agency.

The trusteeship had no territory.

And? We are talking about the fact that the Palestinians tried to declare independence on territory already declared independent 4 months earlier.

BTW, can you post the 1948 declaration , I tried to google it but I couldn't find it. Thanks
PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948
 
toastman,

Yes, this is an obscurer document.

BTW, can you post the 1948 declaration , I tried to google it but I couldn't find it. Thanks
(REFERENCE)

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

v/r
R
 
toastman,

Yes, this is an obscurer document.

BTW, can you post the 1948 declaration , I tried to google it but I couldn't find it. Thanks
(REFERENCE)

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

v/r
R
Reads like a declaration to me.
...............HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE.............
 
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