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Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ Coyote, et al,
Certainly their are some great differences between the opinions; at least in this discussion group. BUT, it is a good question, because it asks us to review what a "Right" is.
"Rights" is the generalized term for an indeterminate entitlements (not to be confused with a grant or benefit) either:
• TO perform → or → NOT to perform certain actions;
• TO be placed in → or → NOT to be placed in a certain condition or status;
• That others perform → or → NOT perform certain actions;
• That others be in → or → NOT be in certain condition or status.
"Rights dominate modern understandings of what actions are permissible and which institutions are just. Rights structure the form of governments, the content of laws, and the shape of morality as it is currently perceived. To accept a set of rights is to approve a distribution of freedom and authority, and so to endorse a certain view of what may, must, and must not be done."
SOURCE: First published Mon Dec 19, 2005 - Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy; substantive revision Wed Sep 9, 2015
So, what do we mean when we say:
(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;
(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;
Within the concepts of a "right," what is:
- Being directed to perform (or not to perform)?
- What condition or state is being set (or not set)?
- Who may, must, or must not to what to who?
(THE RUB)Why is it so hard for people to grant rights to other people? Is it personally threatening? Does granting rights of self determination, dignity and being recognized as a people mean you have less rights for you and yours? Is it a zero sum game?
Before we can discuss the 'right of self-determination," we must define what constitutes "self-determination?" dignity and being recognized as a people mean you have less rights for you and yours?
When we talk about the right of self-determination; the Covenant says that: "All peoples have the right of self-determination. → By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development." [See: Article 1: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) 1966 (entered into force in 1976)]
This [and not the UN Charter Article 1(2)] that actually defines the constituent parts of "self-determination:"
The CCPR even recognizes the ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved "if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as well as his economic, social and cultural rights."
- Political Status,
- Economic Development,
- Social Development,
- Cultural Development,
(COMMENT)
The Palestinians consider their "rights" to be be something owed to them and paramount above all others; conveniently forgetting the clause that means if conditions are created whereby both the Palestinian and Israeli may enjoy his civil and political rights, as well as his economic, social and cultural rights.
It is not that anyone denies rights; but that what they means and how the Palestinians attempt to apply them.
(SIDEBAR)
While there are several unenforceable resolutions that mention these rights, A/RES/49/148 (Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination) and A/RES/3236 (the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination), what you think it says, is not necessarily what it means. Neither changes how the Covenant (International Law) treats those rights. This is really a legal argument that is subject to the 1970 Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/26/25). And it is in the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States that stipulates that international disputes must be resolved by peaceful means; including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States. Once the Arab Palestinians, with the support of the Arab League, threatened and then staged force to violate the existing Armistice Lines, the question ceased to be a matter of "rights" but a violation of the Rule of Law.
You may notice that neither the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) or the CCPR makes any mention of → self-determination, sovereignty or independence in the context as discussed; except as stipulated above.
Most Respectfully,
RYou are conflating or confusing peoples and people. Those are two different categories with two different systems of rights."All peoples have the right of self-determination.
People/person/persons have individual rights like the right to life, liberty, etc. without regard to where they are.
Peoples/a people have national/collective rights within a defined territory. (Montevideo requires a defined territory, and peoples have the right to territorial integrity.) The French are "a people" with national rights in France. The British are "a people" with national rights in Britain.
The French have individual rights in Britain, but they do not have national rights there. The British have individual rights in France, but they do not have national rights there.
1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:...
UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237
The Palestinians have national rights in Palestine. Others don't.
Wait a second...
What about Palestinian Jews??
Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
You are starting from a false premise. You do this in many of your posts.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
You misunderstood my question - I wasn't talking about Zionists, but Palestinian Jews and their relationship with the Arabs in Palestine ( before Zionists came to Palestine).
Let's try again:
Q. Who divided the Jews from the rest of the Palestinian population, during the Arab pogroms against them in Palestine, before Zionism?
You are starting from a false premise. You do this in many of your posts.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
You misunderstood my question - I wasn't talking about Zionists, but Palestinian Jews and their relationship with the Arabs in Palestine ( before Zionists came to Palestine).
Let's try again:
Q. Who divided the Jews from the rest of the Palestinian population, during the Arab pogroms against them in Palestine, before Zionism?
Thanks.Non-political?
Ashrawi gave a speech at another PCRF gathering in 2015 where she accused Israel of attempting to destroy Palestinians not only physically (11:27 -"Israel is a settler colonial project is attempting to complete the Nakba that started in 1947-48") but culturally (" a people [Jews] are attempting to eradicate the very
presence, the very history, the very culture, the very identity of another nation and to take over not just that land but that narrative.") She claimed that Israel created towns where they stole Arabic names and Hebraized them, which is the exact thing Arabs have done to Biblical-era sites.
(full article and video online)
"Non-political" Palestinian children's charity features anti-Israel rhetoric ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
Thanks.Non-political?
Ashrawi gave a speech at another PCRF gathering in 2015 where she accused Israel of attempting to destroy Palestinians not only physically (11:27 -"Israel is a settler colonial project is attempting to complete the Nakba that started in 1947-48") but culturally (" a people [Jews] are attempting to eradicate the very
presence, the very history, the very culture, the very identity of another nation and to take over not just that land but that narrative.") She claimed that Israel created towns where they stole Arabic names and Hebraized them, which is the exact thing Arabs have done to Biblical-era sites.
(full article and video online)
"Non-political" Palestinian children's charity features anti-Israel rhetoric ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.
It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
It was the Zionists who wanted to divide everybody up by religion.Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.
Now for facts:
The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.
Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?
Get this: No palestine or palestinians in Arabs’ own Koran BUT Allah decrees Israel to Children of Israel
