When Tuition is INSANELY HIGH, UNAFFORDABLE, why is the conversation...

[SniperFire]

Why would she need calculus? most scientists don't need calculus anymore, computers do the math. they seem to be loading up the required courses to get more money out of students. My guess is that, if people actually had to pay up front for classes, there would be a lot more questions about why some courses are required.

THIS.

Our colleges and universities are simply abusing 18 year olds by loading them up with debt that they do not understand.

Why?

Just so they can have a bigger college and more pay for the professors.

 

[8537]

Are people really trying to claim that learning calculus isn't important?

Really?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and estimate that 99% of people who don't see the value of learning calculus never learned calculus.

 

[Greenbeard]

Why would she need calculus? most scientists don't need calculus anymore, computers do the math.

That's like asking why we teach people to read now that there are books on tape.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

IL schools aren't all more than 30K per year. I chose one at random - Southern Illinois University, a fine place to get a degree. $8,864 per year tuition and fees.

That's not cheap, of course, but you could work to cover your room and board while graduating in four years with less debt than the average car payment. And presuming you put your degree to work in a relevant field you'll reap the rewards for that degree over and over and over during your working life.

Her tuition and fees are about $3900 per semester. Her campus housing is $3150 per semester which is highway robbery (the housing).
Including everything it is costing roughly $16,000 per year. It is a Bachelor's degree in Science. And that is the rub. All BS degrees require 3 years of advanced math. Which would make sense in many science applications...but what amounts to a specialized nursing degree?

 

[uscitizen]

Why would she need calculus? most scientists don't need calculus anymore, computers do the math.

That's like asking why we teach people to read now that there are books on tape.

One more reason why the uSA is dripping behind other nations.
There is doing math and there is understanding how and why the math works.

 

[8537]

IL schools aren't all more than 30K per year. I chose one at random - Southern Illinois University, a fine place to get a degree. $8,864 per year tuition and fees.

That's not cheap, of course, but you could work to cover your room and board while graduating in four years with less debt than the average car payment. And presuming you put your degree to work in a relevant field you'll reap the rewards for that degree over and over and over during your working life.

Her tuition and fees are about $3900 per semester. Her campus housing is $3150 per semester which is highway robbery (the housing).
Including everything it is costing roughly $16,000 per year. It is a Bachelor's degree in Science. And that is the rub. All BS degrees require 3 years of advanced math. Which would make sense in many science applications...but what amounts to a specialized nursing degree?

Well, she's attempting to obtain a Bachelors degree. If she only wanted to learn the parts related to respiratory therapy she should go to a trade school that focuses solely on that. Part of the purpose of a bachelor's degree is exposure to a range of knowledge. A bachelor's of Science will require...science. Statistics and math are the bread and butter of science.

 

[Unkotare]

And what makes you say that? Specifically.

Because you sound like some kid who doesn't like math whining, "why do I need to study this? I'll never use it!"

uh...no.
I am 47 years old...kind of hard to have a child in college when you are a kid

Go back to the beginning and review the entire exchange.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

IL schools aren't all more than 30K per year. I chose one at random - Southern Illinois University, a fine place to get a degree. $8,864 per year tuition and fees.

That's not cheap, of course, but you could work to cover your room and board while graduating in four years with less debt than the average car payment. And presuming you put your degree to work in a relevant field you'll reap the rewards for that degree over and over and over during your working life.

Her tuition and fees are about $3900 per semester. Her campus housing is $3150 per semester which is highway robbery (the housing).
Including everything it is costing roughly $16,000 per year. It is a Bachelor's degree in Science. And that is the rub. All BS degrees require 3 years of advanced math. Which would make sense in many science applications...but what amounts to a specialized nursing degree?

Well, she's attempting to obtain a Bachelors degree. If she only wanted to learn the parts related to respiratory therapy she should go to a trade school that focuses solely on that. Part of the purpose of a bachelor's degree is exposure to a range of knowledge. A bachelor's of Science will require...science. Statistics and math are the bread and butter of science.

She is not attempting, she is succeeding very well. She made the Dean's list the last two years.
There is no "trade school" for respiratory therapy that I know of...it is a BS degree.
I have no argument about heavy mathematic requirements for most science degrees. But then - this doesn't really fit that does it? The only reason I can think of is that respiratory therapy is a critical care position...these folks save people's lives on a regular basis so weeding out folks could be a reason. Having said that however - wouldn't you think heavier courses in anatomy and physiology would be there rather than mathematics? What you don't see here is what the High School level requirements were. Chemistry. She took that already. She said it is nearly identical to what she is taking now. So why accept the AP Chemistry credits in high school and then require it again on the course list?

 

[SniperFire]

Are people really trying to claim that learning calculus isn't important?

Really?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and estimate that 99% of people who don't see the value of learning calculus never learned calculus.

It is important to people who might actually need to know calculus someday.

Which excludes 99% of the people.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Really?
Intro to Finite is reasonable? Yeah..she will be figuring out math tables everyday.
Statistical Math is reasonable? How could a therapist survive without full knowledge of statistics?
2 computer courses is reasonable?...I KNOW she will be building data tables with all of the math she is going to be doing. Thank God she will know Access and SQL!!
3 Math courses is reasonable?
College Chemistry is reasonable?...of course she will be in a lab mixing compounds in between taking oxygen levels.
Professional Writing is reasonable? Just how many professional letters do respiratory therapist write a day?

Considering that your daughter is going into a health service field she will almost certainly be required to engage in professional development activities, which always involves reading patient studies, yeah the math is all relevant.

Ditto the computer classes, not to mention anyone relying on computerized equipment should have a working knowledge of how they work in order to recognize errors.

Chemistry is a discipline class, in that to pass her chem lab she will have to learn proper lab etiquette which is going to be essential to anyone dealing with the medical profession.

Considering she is likely to write directions for patients in her field, I definitely support a professional writing course.

So yes, that all looks reasonable.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

IL schools aren't all more than 30K per year. I chose one at random - Southern Illinois University, a fine place to get a degree. $8,864 per year tuition and fees.

That's not cheap, of course, but you could work to cover your room and board while graduating in four years with less debt than the average car payment. And presuming you put your degree to work in a relevant field you'll reap the rewards for that degree over and over and over during your working life.

Her tuition and fees are about $3900 per semester. Her campus housing is $3150 per semester which is highway robbery (the housing).
Including everything it is costing roughly $16,000 per year. It is a Bachelor's degree in Science. And that is the rub. All BS degrees require 3 years of advanced math. Which would make sense in many science applications...but what amounts to a specialized nursing degree?

Every single nursing degree I have ever seen requires statistics. Which requires a decent chunk of math to pass.

 

[8537]

Are people really trying to claim that learning calculus isn't important?

Really?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and estimate that 99% of people who don't see the value of learning calculus never learned calculus.

It is important to people who might actually need to know calculus someday.

Which excludes 99% of the people.

Oh my....

really?

well, if our goal is to keep people out of high paying jobs like engineering, science and economics so we become even less competitive...

 

[GHook93]

Are people really trying to claim that learning calculus isn't important?

Really?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and estimate that 99% of people who don't see the value of learning calculus never learned calculus.

It is important to people who might actually need to know calculus someday.

Which excludes 99% of the people.

Thinking like this is why America is producing less and less matheticans, scientist and engineers every year!

 

[newpolitics]

...birth control costs??? The cheapest (meaning least expensive) IL STATE college costs minimum $30K a year! Most schools are well beyond that. Four years equals up tp $120K at the MINIMUM! This is a 2nd first mortgage! Going to college is becoming essential to landing a decent job, but going to college is becoming unaffordable to everyone except the upper middle class or upper class!

Yet people want to talk about the affordable birth control options. First, NO plan covers condoms and condoms are the only form of birth control that prevents STDs. If you are sleeping around in college, or anywhere for that matter, then condoms should be used not the pills (or just the pill). Even if the person a has boyfriend (or girlfriend) in college they should use condoms. You don't know what your partner is doing. Be honest how many of you were loyal to your college (or even highschool), girl or boyfriends? I can honestly say I wasn't loyal to any of them! I guarantee I wasn't the only one! The pill might prevent you from getting knocked up (or knocking someone up), but it won't prevent you from getting AIDS, HERPS etc. Second, what is $9 a month, when tuition costs $3K-$5K a month! Where are the priorities. Maybe this spoiled girl should get, I don't know, a job in college!

This comes from the mindset of a father who has 3 kids and one on the way. The rising cost of college keeps me up most nights!

The cheapest form of Birth Control/ STD prevention that I know of is keep your pecker in your pants and your legs closed you will not you want need to buy man made birth control devices, it's actually free.

you may be right, but you can not limit choice, so its irrelevant.

 

[Flopper]

Maybe college kids are getting softer. It seems to me that waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day the only kids who didn't finish an undergrad degree in four years were those who:

A) Didn't want to
B) Weren't the 'best students'
C) Were stoned all the time
D) All of the above

A separate category were those who didn't really look at it as a four-year degree program but took a semester here and there while working full time. All good, but most of those folks I knew never graduated (which is also fine).

It's a lot different. For kids intent on a college education and making something of themselves, the work is a lot harder. I have a bunch of grand kids in school. They have more homework and more is expected of them. College is not breeze. Most of the kids are more serious than they use to be. They are also older and I think more are working part time. It's a different environment.

I disagree. I've tutored hundreds of kids from Jr High through grad school for many years. The work is not harder and the kids who work still finish a four-year degree in four years.

One of my grand kids is in the 6th grade and they're doing simultaneous linear equations. When I was in the 6th grade, I never heard of Algebra. Today a quarter millions kids are taking calculus in high school. When I was in high school, no one took calculus because it wasn't offered. Kids, at least those that are college bound are working harder in school. Competition to get into the good 4 year schools was never greater.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

...birth control costs??? The cheapest (meaning least expensive) IL STATE college costs minimum $30K a year! Most schools are well beyond that. Four years equals up tp $120K at the MINIMUM! This is a 2nd first mortgage! Going to college is becoming essential to landing a decent job, but going to college is becoming unaffordable to everyone except the upper middle class or upper class!

Yet people want to talk about the affordable birth control options. First, NO plan covers condoms and condoms are the only form of birth control that prevents STDs. If you are sleeping around in college, or anywhere for that matter, then condoms should be used not the pills (or just the pill). Even if the person a has boyfriend (or girlfriend) in college they should use condoms. You don't know what your partner is doing. Be honest how many of you were loyal to your college (or even highschool), girl or boyfriends? I can honestly say I wasn't loyal to any of them! I guarantee I wasn't the only one! The pill might prevent you from getting knocked up (or knocking someone up), but it won't prevent you from getting AIDS, HERPS etc. Second, what is $9 a month, when tuition costs $3K-$5K a month! Where are the priorities. Maybe this spoiled girl should get, I don't know, a job in college!

This comes from the mindset of a father who has 3 kids and one on the way. The rising cost of college keeps me up most nights!

Wuhhhh?

Sorry you were faithful to your girlfriends.

 

[Flopper]

Are people really trying to claim that learning calculus isn't important?

Really?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and estimate that 99% of people who don't see the value of learning calculus never learned calculus.

It is important to people who might actually need to know calculus someday.

Which excludes 99% of the people.

An understanding of calculus is needed in science, engineer, economics, and probably several other disciplines if you want to understand research in those fields.

We don't study calculus today so we can perform calculations. Those can done by computer. It is the principals that are important. Often in research papers relationships are expressed mathematically. If don't understand the math, you will not understand the research.

 

[Unkotare]

It's a lot different. For kids intent on a college education and making something of themselves, the work is a lot harder. I have a bunch of grand kids in school. They have more homework and more is expected of them. College is not breeze. Most of the kids are more serious than they use to be. They are also older and I think more are working part time. It's a different environment.

I disagree. I've tutored hundreds of kids from Jr High through grad school for many years. The work is not harder and the kids who work still finish a four-year degree in four years.

One of my grand kids is in the 6th grade and they're doing simultaneous linear equations. When I was in the 6th grade, I never heard of Algebra. Today a quarter millions kids are taking calculus in high school. When I was in high school, no one took calculus because it wasn't offered. Kids, at least those that are college bound are working harder in school. Competition to get into the good 4 year schools was never greater.

Wait, now we're talking about high school? Need a road map to follow this conversation. High achieving kids have been taking pre-calc and calculus for years and years in high school.

It seems you are drifting into demographics rather than academics.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

It is important to people who might actually need to know calculus someday.

Which excludes 99% of the people.

Actually, most people would benefit from a working knowledge of Calculus and its applications. The problem is most people in the USA have one of two attitudes about math:

1. It's useless.
2. It's too hard.

Which is unfortunate, as Mathematics played a huge role in winning WWII, the Cold War, and plays an ongoing role in the War on Terror. It's the back bone of science which is the backbone of innovation and economic growth. The ability to analytically reason, which is learned from Mathematics courses, is intrinsically related to your ability to form reasoned and well informed opinions.

 

[Flopper]

I disagree. I've tutored hundreds of kids from Jr High through grad school for many years. The work is not harder and the kids who work still finish a four-year degree in four years.

One of my grand kids is in the 6th grade and they're doing simultaneous linear equations. When I was in the 6th grade, I never heard of Algebra. Today a quarter millions kids are taking calculus in high school. When I was in high school, no one took calculus because it wasn't offered. Kids, at least those that are college bound are working harder in school. Competition to get into the good 4 year schools was never greater.

Wait, now we're talking about high school? Need a road map to follow this conversation. High achieving kids have been taking pre-calc and calculus for years and years in high school.

It seems you are drifting into demographics rather than academics.

When I was in school in the 50's, there was no calculus being taught in high school, at least not the one I attended. When I say calculus, I'm talking about calculus not pre-calculus.