When references are made to institutionalized racism, this is what is meant.

[martybegan]

Nice try but it doesn’t work that way.

I was a project manager and the “meebe-weebe” requirements were actually easily avoided.

All it required was naming a minority owned or woman owned firm as one of the bidders. My company had favorite vendors so he MWB/WBE contractors never won the bids but we used them as “attempts “ and that was enough.

After a while we had to pay them to provide estimates because they never won them.

And before you bitch at me… this was not my choice. This was my company.

Not in NYC and other places. you have to show at the end of the job you met the contract required goals, in actual spending on MBE/WBE subcontractors.

 

[Mac1958]

The point of the thread isn't to make any argument. It's to point out the existence of the kind of institutional racism conservatives deny exists.

The term itself is a little weird for me. When I hear it, to me it connotes some kind of organized, systematic institutional (business or industry) effort or approach.

Would you say it's more an issue of the specific biases of individuals in positions of authority within the business?

 

[The Duke]

Why don't you look in to it and tell us what you find? Though I'm not sure what documention is.

Documentation means proof they actually sent out that many applications to companies as they claimed, and there is none.

It all goes in a big circle, and a study back in 1978 with 2 applications.

https://archive.ph/URw1c

Owait, you can buy the alleged proof for $5. You're not going to get it without that, though, if it's even there.

https://archive.ph/ivQIc#selection-1537.1-1537.1684

I tried to find a free workaround, it didn't happen.

 

[berg80]

Institutional racism requires institutions to actively promote it, via policy and procedure.

Obviously not since the hiring practices of these companies resulted in discrimination despite the existence of policies and procedures designed to prevent it.

 

[dblack]

Put a white run BBQ place next to a Black run BBQ place and where do you think most of the black people would go to first?

Or the white people, for that matter.

 

[martybegan]

Obviously not since the hiring practices of these companies resulted in discrimination despite the existence of policies and procedures designed to prevent it.

For it to be institutional there has to be policies and procedures to implement it.

 

[dblack]

Institutional racism, or systemic racism, is going on today..............as the study shows.

I'm sure institutional racism is going on today. But the study is pretty weak.

Regardless, I think most people think of institutional racism and racism infecting our legal institutions. Maybe the equivocation is deliberate?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The term itself is a little weird for me. When I hear it, to me it connotes some kind of organized, systematic institutional (business or industry) effort or approach.

Would you say it's more an issue of the specific biases of individuals in positions of authority within the business?

No, I would say it is an obviously very flawed "study" that is so very obviously flawed.
I literally saw the math problem of their "study" before I read half the paragraph.

So we are to believe 80,000 applications.
Think for just one half second on that.

 

[berg80]

The term itself is a little weird for me. When I hear it, to me it connotes some kind of organized, systematic institutional (business or industry) effort or approach.

Would you say it's more an issue of the specific biases of individuals in positions of authority within the business?

What I'd say is when specific biases of individuals in positions of authority within many businesses is the rule, not the exception, the practice of discrimination has become institutionalized.

 

[Lesh]

Not in NYC and other places. you have to show at the end of the job you met the contract required goals, in actual spending on MBE/WBE subcontractors.

Wrong. I worked for a New Jersey company and we did work throughout the tri state area. That includes NYC by the way. It was no different in the City.

All you had to show was “attempts”

 

[dblack]

What I'd say is when specific biases of individuals in positions of authority within many businesses is the rule, not the exception, the practice of discrimination has become institutionalized.

Even if we take the "study" at face value, 9.5% sounds more like "exception" than rule.

 

[martybegan]

Wrong. I worked for a New Jersey company and we did work throughout the tri state area. That includes NYC by the way. It was no different in the City.

All you had to show was “attempts”

No, "good faith effort" and they require updates on the amount PAID to each subcontractor.

And you have to get all subcontracts approved, and if you didn't get WBE/MBE subs approved they started asking questions.

Lack of effort means you get downranked when you bid or propose on your next job.

 

[berg80]

I'm sure institutional racism is going on today. But the study is pretty weak.

Regardless, I think most people think of institutional racism and racism infecting our legal institutions. Maybe the equivocation is deliberate?

It's not the only study.

Viewpoint: How a Person's Name Can Prompt Hiring Discrimination

Following up on an experiment from 2004, two economists have found that study participants systematically discriminated against job candidates with names they associated with Black people, especially when put under time pressure. White people who oppose a

www.shrm.org

New paper finds evidence of name discrimination for Ph.D.s

Study finds having hard-to-pronounce names—from the perspective of native English speakers—results in poorer job placements for economics Ph.D.s.

www.insidehighered.com

Who Discriminates in Hiring? A New Study Can Tell. (Published 2021)

Applications seemingly from Black candidates got fewer replies than those evidently from white candidates. The method could point to specific companies.

www.nytimes.com

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Even if we take the "study" at face value, 9.5% sounds more like "exception" than rule.

Yes
I said that also.
And what is the percentage of error? 2% - 3%? That would be very conservative.

 

[dblack]

It's not the only study.

Viewpoint: How a Person's Name Can Prompt Hiring Discrimination

Following up on an experiment from 2004, two economists have found that study participants systematically discriminated against job candidates with names they associated with Black people, especially when put under time pressure. White people who oppose a

www.shrm.org

That sort of underlines my other point. These studies are telling us about people discriminating against names. The racial link is weak at best. Discriminating against weird names is stupid too, but people do stupid.

 

[Lesh]

No, "good faith effort" and they require updates on the amount PAID to each subcontractor.

And you have to get all subcontracts approved, and if you didn't get WBE/MBE subs approved they started asking questions.

Lack of effort means you get downranked when you bid or propose on your next job.

“Lack of effort”… implies “attempts”

It was as I described when I retired three years ago. I doubt that changed in the three years.

Another “workaround” my company used was to award contracts to contractors that were jointly owned by a husband and wife even though there were no women actually in that company. It met the “requirements”

 

[martybegan]

“Lack of effort”… implies “attempts”

It was as I described when I retired three years ago. I doubt that changed in the three years.

Another “workaround” my company used was to award contracts to contractors that were jointly owned by a husband and wife even though there were no women actually in that company. It met the “requirements”

Good faith effort. And they track how much you pay the subs, which subs you hire, and you are required to report on this.

 

[The Duke]

Or the white people, for that matter.

Whaddaya mean? White people can smoke..some can, anyways...sometimes.

 

[Hellokitty]

What Researchers Discovered When They Sent 80,000 Fake Résumés to U.S. Jobs​

A group of economists recently performed an experiment on around 100 of the largest companies in the country, applying for jobs using made-up résumés with equivalent qualifications but different personal characteristics. They changed applicants’ names to suggest that they were white or Black, and male or female — Latisha or Amy, Lamar or Adam.

On Monday, they released the names of the companies. On average, they found, employers contacted the presumed white applicants 9.5 percent more often than the presumed Black applicants.

Yet this practice varied significantly by firm and industry. One-fifth of the companies — many of them retailers or car dealers — were responsible for nearly half of the gap in callbacks to white and Black applicants.

Two companies favored white applicants over Black applicants significantly more than others. They were AutoNation, a used car retailer, which contacted presumed white applicants 43 percent more often, and Genuine Parts Company, which sells auto parts including under the NAPA brand, and called presumed white candidates 33 percent more often.

What Researchers Discovered When They Sent 80,000 Fake Résumés to U.S. Jobs

Some companies discriminated against Black applicants much more than others, and H.R. practices made a big difference.

www.nytimes.com

It doesn't mean overt, extreme racism is rampant in America. It's existence is much more subtle and insidious than that. Some people may exhibit signs of racism subconsciously. Or not consider it to be racism at all.

What is much more difficult to measure than the job discrimination this study reveals is the affect on blacks in America. To what extent has it caused the economic and educational disparities that exist given what some call systemic racism has been going on for centuries.

Why didn't they use any of the crazy names and spellings white people use?

 

[berg80]

What is you solution to the fact that employers prefer white or asian employees?

That anti-discrimination laws be enforced. Other than that you can't change what is in people's heart.