What Would You Do If This Happened To You?

[MikeK]

I don't believe what he said was a threat, but quite honestly, I think only an idiot says something like that about anyone let alone a President. Whether or not it was an actual threat, and I don't think it was, it is a stupid thing to say. I can't imagine that there are American adults who don't know that it is a crime to threaten the President.

Why on earth would someone risk being mis-understood and take the chance of ending up in prison over a stupid statement?

Immie

Because this is America in which our right to free speech is guaranteed by our Constitution. And while the First Amendment doesn't extend the right to verbally incite panic or to issue threats, wishing suffering or death upon someone is not subject to official intervention. And because something might be in poor taste does not make it illegal.


"Whomever would make his own liberty secure must guard even his most despised countryman from oppression by government. For if he ignores this sacred duty he thus establishes a precedent which someday will surely reach to himself." (Thomas Paine)

Um, excuse me, but threatening the life of the President is not and never has been considered "Free Speech" just as yelling "Fire!" in a theater is not considered "Free Speech".

Immie

No kidding. When did that start?

 

[boedicca]

Yes, it's going to far. We have first amendment rights to say even incredibly stupid things.

The coworker did not say he wanted to kill Obama, just that he would like it if Obama were dead.

Considering how a movie study made a Bush Snuff Film without repercussion, it's hard to justify investigating a single person for expressing a similarly wistful sentiment.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I have to side with Hick on this one. Excuse me while I go throw up.

I'll take that as a double win for me.

 

[JakeStarkey]

boedicca is merely chasing her tail. We have first amendment rights to political speech. Talking about the hope for a president's death does not fall into that category, period.

 

[mudwhistle]

I would have just told the guy that's the wrong attitude to have. We need to love people. Even our enemies.

I agree. Both guys involved were douchebags. That being said, I still think the Secret Service did the right thing, and exactly what I, as a citizen, would want them to do. Make no mistake, as much as I dislike Barack Obama as President, as much as I think he will be in the running for worst President ever, he IS still the President of my country, and I don't want anyone assassinating the President of the United States under any circumstances. I want his ass VOTED out of office, not KILLED out of office.

It would more fun to see him go down in flames.

 

[MikeK]

boedicca is merely chasing her tail. We have first amendment rights to political speech. Talking about the hope for a president's death does not fall into that category, period.

To express a wish for the death of a president, while it might be offensive to those with fragile sensibilities, is by no means a threat. It is not even libelous. It is in fact political speech. And while it is not something you might be inclined to say, your sense of propriety and verbal decorum is not the recognized standard. The First Amendment is.

What I find most interesting is that many contemporary Americans not only are unaware of the extent of their First Amendment protections but some seem eager to deny or discard them. The following is a quotation you should give some thought to:

"While I disagree with and despise what you say I will defend with my life your right to say it!" (Voltaire)

 

[Ame®icano]

In my lifetime, there have been two Presidents shot. Anyone that makes a statement like that in my presence, no matter what their politics are, or what the politics of the current president are, they will be reported. Just too many looney tunes out there that would make it a third president in my lifetime.

What, you were there when they shot Lincoln?

 

[JakeStarkey]

boedicca is merely chasing her tail. We have first amendment rights to political speech. Talking about the hope for a president's death does not fall into that category, period.

To express a wish for the death of a president, while it might be offensive to those with fragile sensibilities, is by no means a threat. It is not even libelous. It is in fact political speech. And while it is not something you might be inclined to say, your sense of propriety and verbal decorum is not the recognized standard. The First Amendment is.

What I find most interesting is that many contemporary Americans not only are unaware of the extent of their First Amendment protections but some seem eager to deny or discard them. The following is a quotation you should give some thought to:

"While I disagree with and despise what you say I will defend with my life your right to say it!" (Voltaire)

1. The law and the Secret Service, mike, disagree with you.

2. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is only your opinion, good for you and no one else.

3. The right is not absolute in that you can say whatever you want without legal or social impunity.

 

[MikeK]

1. The law and the Secret Service, mike, disagree with you.

In this you are taking the position of a judge. Here is an example of a U.S. Attorney's opinion of this issue:

In a 1971 interview, Groucho Marx told Flash magazine, "I think the only hope this country has is Nixon’s assassination." U.S. Attorney James L. Browning, Jr. opined, "It is one thing to say that 'I (or we) will kill Richard Nixon' when you are the leader of an organization which advocates killing people and overthrowing the Government; it is quite another to utter the words which are attributed to Mr. Marx, an alleged comedian."
Threatening the President of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In this he is making clear the distinction between a substantive threat and a wish, or a hope, or a frivolous comment.

The following is another example which is relevant to this issue. I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts about it:

In 1996, pastor Rob Schenck told then President Bill Clinton, "God will hold you to account, Mr. President," referencing a recent veto of a ban on partial-birth abortions. The pastor was detained by Secret Service agents who, according to reports, accused him of threatening the President's life.

If Pastor Schenck were tried and you were a juror, would you agree that he did in fact threaten the President's life? Or would you say the Secret Service was way out of line?

2. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is only your opinion, good for you and no one else.

And you are entitled to your opinion. But the question remains as to what is a threat and what is not -- the real issue being does Secret Service authority transcend the First Amendment?

3. The right is not absolute in that you can say whatever you want without legal or social impunity.

That's correct. It is against the law to threaten a president. But it is not against the law to express a negative opinion of a president or to wish that harm would befall a president. A wish is not a threat. It is protected speech.

Keep in mind that a president is not a king. He is an elected official, a politician.

Also keep in mind the difference between making a criminal charge against someone who will plead guilty rather than defend because the public defender recommends that course and someone who is defended by an experienced, motivated trial lawyer.

Very big difference.

 

[JakeStarkey]

MikeK, you keep telling yourself that. Go right ahead. Like you keep reassuring yourself, it is your right. Keep telling yourself that.

 

[mattskramer]

Joking about shooting the President certainly isn't a crime as such; threatening to shoot the President is. Threats (whether against the President or not) are indeed constitutionally unprotected, but to be a punishable threats, a statement must at least be understood by a reasonable listener as a true threat, rather than just hyperbole (or humor). ...

Virginia v. Black (2003) also held that a statement can't be a punishable threat unless it's made "with the intent of placing the victim in fear of bodily harm or death.

The Volokh Conspiracy - Jokes About Killing the President:

 

[JakeStarkey]

mattskramber, state law has nothing to do with this. And the Secret Service will simply say, "We had to check her out to make sure there was no intent."

 

[mattskramer]

mattskramber, state law has nothing to do with this. And the Secret Service will simply say, "We had to check her out to make sure there was no intent."

Fair enough

 

[JakeStarkey]

I understand what you are saying, and we both know life ain't fair (my latest example is I just got negged over the stupidest thing on another thread, but hey!), and that is my point. We should be able to say what we want, but sometimes we can't without interference from something or someone that can hurt us. At least we don't have the liege lord from the castle demanding his due for sampling anyone's daughter first on her wedding night. We have come a long way.