What is "Trickle Down Economics"?

[The Rabbi]

We are already artificially funding offshoring efforts by selling offshore produced products tax free while charging through the nose for corporate profits onshore, regulatory requirements, etc.

Balance must be achieved or our labor suffers.

What off shore products are sold tax free? I want a list so I can go shopping and save lots of money on off shore produced goods.

Now you're simply making stuff up with no foundation at all.

The federal government does not have a sales tax. It taxes corporations through corporate profit tax. Foreign companies do not pay profit tax on products sold in the USA, they get a pass. Are you mentally handicapped?

State and local governments do have sales taxes, for the most part. Corporations with entities here also pay income tax here.
Where are these products that are so cheap because they are skipping paying tax? I want a list.

 

[zeke]

Rabbit, most all of us agree that YOU are a blathering idiot. Known that for some time now. Way before you got to 43000 plus posts of blathering idiocy.

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbit, most all of us agree that YOU are a blathering idiot. Known that for some time now. Way before you got to 43000 plus posts of blathering idiocy.

It's Zeke, toothless stumpbroke of USMB weighing in from the trailer park.
Hey, Zeke, still think consumer spending drives the economy? Go buy more Thunderbird and make everyone rich.

 

[RKMBrown]

What off shore products are sold tax free? I want a list so I can go shopping and save lots of money on off shore produced goods.

Now you're simply making stuff up with no foundation at all.

The federal government does not have a sales tax. It taxes corporations through corporate profit tax. Foreign companies do not pay profit tax on products sold in the USA, they get a pass. Are you mentally handicapped?

State and local governments do have sales taxes, for the most part. Corporations with entities here also pay income tax here.
Where are these products that are so cheap because they are skipping paying tax? I want a list.

We are not talking about state and local taxes. We are talking about federal taxes.

You want to know the list of foreign made products sold in the US from companies that did not pay US corporate income tax on their US profits? ROFL you really are mentally handicapped if you think I'm gonna make a list of foreign products sold in the US.

This is how they avoid paying taxes in the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_pricing

 

[The Rabbi]

The federal government does not have a sales tax. It taxes corporations through corporate profit tax. Foreign companies do not pay profit tax on products sold in the USA, they get a pass. Are you mentally handicapped?

State and local governments do have sales taxes, for the most part. Corporations with entities here also pay income tax here.
Where are these products that are so cheap because they are skipping paying tax? I want a list.

We are not talking about state and local taxes. We are talking about federal taxes.

You want to know the list of foreign made products sold in the US from companies that did not pay US corporate income tax on their US profits? ROFL you really are mentally handicapped if you think I'm gonna make a list of foreign products sold in the US.

This is how they avoid paying taxes in the USA. Transfer pricing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you cannot provide a list of foreign made goods sold tax free here that represent bargains for the consumers.
Thought so.

 

[kaz]

Make up your mind first you say it's straw man and crap then you say you agree with what I said. First you say you worked with companies to right size them through offshoring, now you say you worked with start ups to start them, then you claim the money the big companies save by killing jobs lets them start new stuff. I'm thinking you are a bit bipolar.

Free markets solve MBAs that are inept.. Yes that was my point.

I spent the first five years of my career in GE Information services as a developer, then as a software architect. Got my MS in Computer Science & Applications from Virginia Tech at night. Then got my MBA at Michigan. From then until now, I was in GE Management rotating jobs every 1-2 years or in management consulting working on projects from 3-12 months. So yeah, I've done a lot of different things. I don't have to make up my mind about that.

And I don't advocate offshoring or not offshoring on principle, I advocate free markets and efficiency. Efficiency is what my career has been about. And yes, in free markets some companies do bad things. That's good, they are replaced by ones that make good decisions.

So when you say to stop companies from offshoring artificially, I oppose that. When you say you'll build a better mousetrap and beat them with onshore resources, I am for that. Do it.

We are already artificially funding offshoring efforts by selling offshore produced products tax free while charging through the nose for corporate profits onshore, regulatory requirements, etc.

Balance must be achieved or our labor suffers.

You're wrong.

1) No other major western country taxes their company's offshore investments

2) We may not tax it while it's offshore, but we tax it when they repatriate the money, which no other major western country does.

3) Which stops our companies from repatriating money, better to have it all offshore than a portion of it onshore.

Our government handicaps our companies, and stupidly so. You want to fix it, level the playing field and get the repatriation of money tax removed.

W reduced it from 30-35% to 5% for one year and money flooded home, the government got more tax revenue than when the rate is higher, no one is stupid enough to do it.

Better yet, repeal it all and go do the fair tax. Your wanting to further handicap our companies by charging them even more than their foreign competitors pay is just insane. You'll drive our corporations offshore faster than they are going now.

 

[kaz]

We are already artificially funding offshoring efforts by selling offshore produced products tax free while charging through the nose for corporate profits onshore, regulatory requirements, etc.

Balance must be achieved or our labor suffers.

What off shore products are sold tax free? I want a list so I can go shopping and save lots of money on off shore produced goods.

Now you're simply making stuff up with no foundation at all.

The federal government does not have a sales tax. It taxes corporations through corporate profit tax. Foreign companies do not pay profit tax on products sold in the USA, they get a pass. Are you mentally handicapped?

So fix it. Fair tax

 

[RKMBrown]

I spent the first five years of my career in GE Information services as a developer, then as a software architect. Got my MS in Computer Science & Applications from Virginia Tech at night. Then got my MBA at Michigan. From then until now, I was in GE Management rotating jobs every 1-2 years or in management consulting working on projects from 3-12 months. So yeah, I've done a lot of different things. I don't have to make up my mind about that.

And I don't advocate offshoring or not offshoring on principle, I advocate free markets and efficiency. Efficiency is what my career has been about. And yes, in free markets some companies do bad things. That's good, they are replaced by ones that make good decisions.

So when you say to stop companies from offshoring artificially, I oppose that. When you say you'll build a better mousetrap and beat them with onshore resources, I am for that. Do it.

We are already artificially funding offshoring efforts by selling offshore produced products tax free while charging through the nose for corporate profits onshore, regulatory requirements, etc.

Balance must be achieved or our labor suffers.

You're wrong.

1) No other major western country taxes their company's offshore investments

2) We may not tax it while it's offshore, but we tax it when they repatriate the money, which no other major western country does.

3) Which stops our companies from repatriating money, better to have it all offshore than a portion of it onshore.

Our government handicaps our companies, and stupidly so. You want to fix it, level the playing field and get the repatriation of money tax removed.

W reduced it from 30-35% to 5% for one year and money flooded home, the government got more tax revenue than when the rate is higher, no one is stupid enough to do it.

Better yet, repeal it all and go do the fair tax. Your wanting to further handicap our companies by charging them even more than their foreign competitors pay is just insane. You'll drive our corporations offshore faster than they are going now.

LOL you say I'm wrong then provide one of the reasons I'm right.. Sigh. What did you want to argue about?

 

[kaz]

We are already artificially funding offshoring efforts by selling offshore produced products tax free while charging through the nose for corporate profits onshore, regulatory requirements, etc.

Balance must be achieved or our labor suffers.

You're wrong.

1) No other major western country taxes their company's offshore investments

2) We may not tax it while it's offshore, but we tax it when they repatriate the money, which no other major western country does.

3) Which stops our companies from repatriating money, better to have it all offshore than a portion of it onshore.

Our government handicaps our companies, and stupidly so. You want to fix it, level the playing field and get the repatriation of money tax removed.

W reduced it from 30-35% to 5% for one year and money flooded home, the government got more tax revenue than when the rate is higher, no one is stupid enough to do it.

Better yet, repeal it all and go do the fair tax. Your wanting to further handicap our companies by charging them even more than their foreign competitors pay is just insane. You'll drive our corporations offshore faster than they are going now.

LOL you say I'm wrong then provide one of the reasons I'm right.. Sigh. What did you want to argue about?

Maybe I'm not clear what you're actually proposing. The Fair Tax would totally level the playing field.

I did misunderstand part though, I thought you wanted to tax US companies overseas, but I don't see you saying that. It's the selling it here part you addressed.

 

[RKMBrown]

You're wrong.

1) No other major western country taxes their company's offshore investments

2) We may not tax it while it's offshore, but we tax it when they repatriate the money, which no other major western country does.

3) Which stops our companies from repatriating money, better to have it all offshore than a portion of it onshore.

Our government handicaps our companies, and stupidly so. You want to fix it, level the playing field and get the repatriation of money tax removed.

W reduced it from 30-35% to 5% for one year and money flooded home, the government got more tax revenue than when the rate is higher, no one is stupid enough to do it.

Better yet, repeal it all and go do the fair tax. Your wanting to further handicap our companies by charging them even more than their foreign competitors pay is just insane. You'll drive our corporations offshore faster than they are going now.

LOL you say I'm wrong then provide one of the reasons I'm right.. Sigh. What did you want to argue about?

Maybe I'm not clear what you're actually proposing. The Fair Tax would totally level the playing field.

I did misunderstand part though, I thought you wanted to tax US companies overseas, but I don't see you saying that. It's the selling it here part you addressed.

I've not seen a revision of the fair tax that made sense yet. I like sales taxes, real estate taxes, and import duties instead of personal income, corporate income, and hidden taxes. Income taxes should only apply to people that earned income here and want to walk off with it to some tax haven, or bury it in their back yard.

On sales taxes I like it when food products, medicines and such are exempted. On real estate taxes I like it when there is a flat exemption amount relative to a minimum standard of living dwelling. That way it's not like we are taxing you for a minimal living standard.

 

[kaz]

LOL you say I'm wrong then provide one of the reasons I'm right.. Sigh. What did you want to argue about?

Maybe I'm not clear what you're actually proposing. The Fair Tax would totally level the playing field.

I did misunderstand part though, I thought you wanted to tax US companies overseas, but I don't see you saying that. It's the selling it here part you addressed.

I've not seen a revision of the fair tax that made sense yet. I like sales taxes, real estate taxes, and import duties instead of personal income, corporate income, and hidden taxes. Income taxes should only apply to people that earned income here and want to walk off with it to some tax haven, or bury it in their back yard.

On sales taxes I like it when food products, medicines and such are exempted. On real estate taxes I like it when there is a flat exemption amount relative to a minimum standard of living dwelling. That way it's not like we are taxing you for a minimal living standard.

All taxes are embedded in the price of products sold already. The fair tax is ultra efficient because rather than burying taxes and making them complex, you just tax the source of all tax revenue once, simply and directly.

As for food,

The fair tax proposal has a pre-bate, which pays people for the taxes to live at that minimal level, so it's covered. Exempting certain taxes would be double then and it starts adding back the complexity that it is striving to eliminate.

Foreign corporations, people in cash businesses and tax evaders would all become taxpayers because they pay the tax when they spend it instead of evading it when they earn it. So even before the benefit of economic growth starts, tax rates for honest citizens goes down.

And we get rid of all the economic inefficiencies of tax accountants, lawyers and companies that focus resources on avoiding taxes instead of competing and growing.

 

[RKMBrown]

Maybe I'm not clear what you're actually proposing. The Fair Tax would totally level the playing field.

I did misunderstand part though, I thought you wanted to tax US companies overseas, but I don't see you saying that. It's the selling it here part you addressed.

I've not seen a revision of the fair tax that made sense yet. I like sales taxes, real estate taxes, and import duties instead of personal income, corporate income, and hidden taxes. Income taxes should only apply to people that earned income here and want to walk off with it to some tax haven, or bury it in their back yard.

On sales taxes I like it when food products, medicines and such are exempted. On real estate taxes I like it when there is a flat exemption amount relative to a minimum standard of living dwelling. That way it's not like we are taxing you for a minimal living standard.

All taxes are embedded in the price of products sold already. The fair tax is ultra efficient because rather than burying taxes and making them complex, you just tax the source of all tax revenue once, simply and directly.

As for food,

The fair tax proposal has a pre-bate, which pays people for the taxes to live at that minimal level, so it's covered. Exempting certain taxes would be double then and it starts adding back the complexity that it is striving to eliminate.

Foreign corporations, people in cash businesses and tax evaders would all become taxpayers because they pay the tax when they spend it instead of evading it when they earn it. So even before the benefit of economic growth starts, tax rates for honest citizens goes down.

And we get rid of all the economic inefficiencies of tax accountants, lawyers and companies that focus resources on avoiding taxes instead of competing and growing.

You just tax the source of all tax revenue? And what would that be? What is the source of all tax revenue? Huh? You lost me there. How did taxing the source of all revenue, whatever complex thing that is, simplify anything?

Pre-bate? Why does that sound like marxism via EBT cards? So I "claim" I have no income then you send me a big ass check that I can spend on booze?

We already have sales taxes in TX with exemptions on food products and medicine. How is increasing the % of sales taxes gonna make it more complicated for you?

As I indicated above if you leave a hole in the system it will be exploited. If you only have sales tax, people will buy off shore. You need import duties and/or a tax on money taken offshore or buried to address the hole placed into the system by only having a sales tax. Further some will complain that it's double taxation as they already paid income taxes now they have to pay sales taxes.

Thus some system would need to be provided, I suspect, to transition otherwise to many folks get screwed. For example, retired people with large savings would get double taxed.

 

[kaz]

For example, retired people with large savings would get double taxed.

You aren't processing the reality that taxes are already baked into the cost of goods and services now. Prices would initially stay the same because there is no difference. And over time they will fall because of increased efficiency.

 

[Dad2three]

I spent the first five years of my career in GE Information services as a developer, then as a software architect. Got my MS in Computer Science & Applications from Virginia Tech at night. Then got my MBA at Michigan. From then until now, I was in GE Management rotating jobs every 1-2 years or in management consulting working on projects from 3-12 months. So yeah, I've done a lot of different things. I don't have to make up my mind about that.

And I don't advocate offshoring or not offshoring on principle, I advocate free markets and efficiency. Efficiency is what my career has been about. And yes, in free markets some companies do bad things. That's good, they are replaced by ones that make good decisions.

So when you say to stop companies from offshoring artificially, I oppose that. When you say you'll build a better mousetrap and beat them with onshore resources, I am for that. Do it.

We are already artificially funding offshoring efforts by selling offshore produced products tax free while charging through the nose for corporate profits onshore, regulatory requirements, etc.

Balance must be achieved or our labor suffers.

You're wrong.

1) No other major western country taxes their company's offshore investments

2) We may not tax it while it's offshore, but we tax it when they repatriate the money, which no other major western country does.

3) Which stops our companies from repatriating money, better to have it all offshore than a portion of it onshore.

Our government handicaps our companies, and stupidly so. You want to fix it, level the playing field and get the repatriation of money tax removed.

W reduced it from 30-35% to 5% for one year and money flooded home, the government got more tax revenue than when the rate is higher, no one is stupid enough to do it.

Better yet, repeal it all and go do the fair tax. Your wanting to further handicap our companies by charging them even more than their foreign competitors pay is just insane. You'll drive our corporations offshore faster than they are going now.

American Corporations Tell IRS the Majority of Their Offshore Profits Are in 12 Tax Havens





Amazingly, American corporations reported to the IRS that the profits their subsidiaries earned in 2010 in Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, the British Virgin Islands, the Bahamas and Luxembourg were greater than the entire gross domestic product (GDP) of those nations in that year.

It is obviously impossible for American corporations to actually earn profits in a given country that exceed that country’s total output of goods and services. Clearly, American corporations are using various tax gimmicks to shift profits actually earned in the U.S. and other countries where they actually do business into their subsidiaries in these tiny countries. This is not surprising, given that these countries impose little or no tax on corporate profits.


American Corporations Tell IRS the Majority of Their Offshore Profits Are in 12 Tax Havens | CTJReports


PROFITS FROM OFFSHORE? LOL

 

[Dad2three]

You're wrong.

1) No other major western country taxes their company's offshore investments

2) We may not tax it while it's offshore, but we tax it when they repatriate the money, which no other major western country does.

3) Which stops our companies from repatriating money, better to have it all offshore than a portion of it onshore.

Our government handicaps our companies, and stupidly so. You want to fix it, level the playing field and get the repatriation of money tax removed.

W reduced it from 30-35% to 5% for one year and money flooded home, the government got more tax revenue than when the rate is higher, no one is stupid enough to do it.

Better yet, repeal it all and go do the fair tax. Your wanting to further handicap our companies by charging them even more than their foreign competitors pay is just insane. You'll drive our corporations offshore faster than they are going now.

LOL you say I'm wrong then provide one of the reasons I'm right.. Sigh. What did you want to argue about?

Maybe I'm not clear what you're actually proposing. The Fair Tax would totally level the playing field.

I did misunderstand part though, I thought you wanted to tax US companies overseas, but I don't see you saying that. It's the selling it here part you addressed.

" The Fair Tax would totally level the playing field. "

FAIRY TALES AND MYTHS


AFT’s Burton agreed that those earning more than $200,000 would see their share of the overall tax burden decrease, admitting that “probably those earning between $40[thousand] and $100,000” would see their percentage of the tax burden rise.


Upon Further Review

We stand behind our earlier analysis of the FairTax. The proposal to which Gov. Huckabee referred is not a 23 percent tax, but rather a 30 percent tax. And it is revenue-neutral only through an accounting trick. It will collect more money from those earning between $15,000 and $200,000 per year and less from those earning more than $200,000 per year. It is possible that the FairTax would make most people better off, but much of that gain would be a direct result of making the tax code less fair.

Unspinning the FairTax

 

[Dad2three]

For example, retired people with large savings would get double taxed.

You aren't processing the reality that taxes are already baked into the cost of goods and services now. Prices would initially stay the same because there is no difference. And over time they will fall because of increased efficiency.

ONE policy conservatives have EVER been correct on in the last 200 years?

 

[kaz]

For example, retired people with large savings would get double taxed.

You aren't processing the reality that taxes are already baked into the cost of goods and services now. Prices would initially stay the same because there is no difference. And over time they will fall because of increased efficiency.

ONE policy conservatives have EVER been correct on in the last 200 years?

Are you eight years old? Seriously, are you?

 

[RKMBrown]

For example, retired people with large savings would get double taxed.

You aren't processing the reality that taxes are already baked into the cost of goods and services now. Prices would initially stay the same because there is no difference. And over time they will fall because of increased efficiency.

Yes I am. You're confusing my points with points other people have made. I'm not saying income taxes are better than sales. I'm saying if the money has already been taxed then when it is taxed again it is being double taxed. Easy concept no? Now if in the future we change to sales tax only and no longer charge income tax, then the people who already paid income tax get screwed. Sure you can argue they already get screwed but you can't say this won't screw them even more.

Income 100k, pay roll tax 20k, buys 40k of sales taxable types of items today per year. In a no sales tax state ends up just paying 20k but as you say there is some embedded price on those 40k of products. For simplicity sake let's say it is 50% or 20k. Thus that person paid 40% in taxes that year.

Retired person with 40k in SS and 40k in income from his sheltered 401k and 20k from non sheltered savings. Because his 401k is income that was not previously taxed as income he still has to pay tax on the 80k but it's reduced significantly by the 50% of SS payments thing and the progressive tax rate. Let's say he pays 10k in income taxes and the same 20k in over payments. This retired guy pays 30k total.

Rich guy with 2m in income from long term capital gains. Today he pays 20%. Then he buys 500k in sales taxable stuff that has the 50% markup. So he's also paying 40%.

Now let's go to sales tax only. We need the same revenue right? You say the prices will go down... ok let's do that Now the worker spends 20k for the cheaper products and to get 40k in taxes from him we'll need a 200% sales tax. Sounds a bit high but ok it's just an exercise. Retired guy looses his 10k discount no? Rich guy yeah he's "only" paying 25%.

 

[kaz]

For example, retired people with large savings would get double taxed.

You aren't processing the reality that taxes are already baked into the cost of goods and services now. Prices would initially stay the same because there is no difference. And over time they will fall because of increased efficiency.

Yes I am. You're confusing my points with points other people have made. I'm not saying income taxes are better than sales. I'm saying if the money has already been taxed then when it is taxed again it is being double taxed. Easy concept no? Now if in the future we change to sales tax only and no longer charge income tax, then the people who already paid income tax get screwed. Sure you can argue they already get screwed but you can't say this won't screw them even more.

Income 100k, pay roll tax 20k, buys 40k of sales taxable types of items today per year. In a no sales tax state ends up just paying 20k but as you say there is some embedded price on those 40k of products. For simplicity sake let's say it is 50% or 20k. Thus that person paid 40% in taxes that year.

Retired person with 40k in SS and 40k in income from his sheltered 401k and 20k from non sheltered savings. Because his 401k is income that was not previously taxed as income he still has to pay tax on the 80k but it's reduced significantly by the 50% of SS payments thing and the progressive tax rate. Let's say he pays 10k in income taxes and the same 20k in over payments. This retired guy pays 30k total.

Rich guy with 2m in income from long term capital gains. Today he pays 20%. Then he buys 500k in sales taxable stuff that has the 50% markup. So he's also paying 40%.

Now let's go to sales tax only. We need the same revenue right? You say the prices will go down... ok let's do that Now the worker spends 20k for the cheaper products and to get 40k in taxes from him we'll need a 200% sales tax. Sounds a bit high but ok it's just an exercise. Retired guy looses his 10k discount no? Rich guy yeah he's "only" paying 25%.

I am not saying pre-tax prices will not go up, I am saying the total price will not go up. You're wrong when you think that taxes paid before are being offset now. Your income and payroll taxes are baked into the price of your employer's products. So are their business taxes, payroll taxes, property taxes, ... All taxes are if you think about it already baked into the price of products. Taking them out and replacing them with a sales tax is revenue neutral. I am saying it will go down over time because of economic efficiency.

There is one tax that is not baked into products, the death tax. Try to name another. And think about it before you click enter.

 

[Dad2three]

You aren't processing the reality that taxes are already baked into the cost of goods and services now. Prices would initially stay the same because there is no difference. And over time they will fall because of increased efficiency.

ONE policy conservatives have EVER been correct on in the last 200 years?

Are you eight years old? Seriously, are you?

So you can't name ONE policy conservatives have EVER been correct about either? Good...