What about the precedent that the zionist ideology in Palestine sets for the rest of the world?

[abi]

no one believes that

You don't see the dangerous precedent it sets?

 

[Shusha]

Deadly serious.

And yet you refuse to back up your claim? Why? Because I caught you again? Pretending I claimed something that I didn't?

Does it set a dangerous precedent or not?

I haven't made any claim. I'm asking you a question.

 

[abi]

I haven't made any claim. I'm asking you a question.

Your OP claims that neither historical indigeniety nor effective sovereignty is a viable justification for rights to self-determination.

 

[Coyote]

I am constantly reminded about a peoples' right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.

I think it is important to see what a dangerous precedent this sets for people the world over.

Out of curiosity, if a people's right to self-determination should NOT be based on their ancestral homeland, and it should NOT be based on their ability to actually control the territory as sovereigns....

What SHOULD it be based on?

I think Abi's "right of self determination" is very arbritrary.

That right should be defined simply as this: if you are a defined group, you have that right. It doesn't mean others will recognize it, but they can't take that right away.

 

[abi]

I think Abi's "right of self determination" is very arbritrary.

That's interesting as I thought I used it as the zionists do.

That right should be defined simply as this: if you are a defined group, you have that right. It doesn't mean others will recognize it, but they can't take that right away.

Interesting as well. Are you saying whether or not you are recognized as a defined group by others, you still have rights to your ancient homeland? An American group could bring their military to China, steal land and murder everyone not willing to leave or live with new rulers?

 

[Coyote]

I think Abi's "right of self determination" is very arbritrary.

That's interesting as I thought I used it as the zionists do.

That right should be defined simply as this: if you are a defined group, you have that right. It doesn't mean others will recognize it, but they can't take that right away.

Interesting as well. Are you saying whether or not you are recognized as a defined group by others, you still have rights to your ancient homeland? An American group could bring their military to China, steal land and murder everyone not willing to leave or live with new rulers?

Self determination and rights to a homeland are two different things.

In the case of Palestine, you have the difficult situation of multiple groups with rights to the area that need to be worked out.

Or are you saying the jews are analogous to a foreign group bringing their military in and stealing land and murdering everyone etc.?

 

[abi]

Or are you saying the jews are analogous to a foreign group bringing their military in and stealing land and murdering everyone etc.?

No way, I have been clear that we are talking about zionism and people that came from a completely different continent. Read writings from before the zionists came, from Muslims, Christians and Jews who all lived in peace for the most part for centuries. They tell stories of dinners at each others homes and praise the others for their kindness and generosity. Their children played together.

 

[flacaltenn]

Oh, and if a small group of Americans came up with scrolls, claimed they were from God and that they were His chosen people, and He told them that they would be returned to their ancestral homeland, would that help or hurt the argument?

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

 

[abi]

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

 

[flacaltenn]

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

 

[abi]

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

Well, you are suggesting that a group of men from one continent can give another group of men from their continent, the land where others have lived for centuries on another continent.

That in itself seems like a dangerous precedent indeed.

 

[flacaltenn]

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

Well, you are suggesting that a group of men from one continent can give another group of men from their continent, the land where others have lived for centuries on another continent.

That in itself seems like a dangerous precedent indeed.

That's the history of the world dude. Where ya been? Not so much since the "game" has wound down into more stability. But that's the way, it "developed". It's now a MATURE neighborhood. With less and less "homeland" fixer upper opportunities. Times' a'wasting for the Pali cause. They don't SEEM to be in any kind of rush. But they better realize this can't go another generation without THEM buying into statehood and stability..

 

[abi]

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

Well, you are suggesting that a group of men from one continent can give another group of men from their continent, the land where others have lived for centuries on another continent.

That in itself seems like a dangerous precedent indeed.

That's the history of the world dude. Where ya been? Not so much since the "game" has wound down into more stability. But that's the way, it "developed". It's now a MATURE neighborhood. With less and less "homeland" fixer upper opportunities. Times' a'wasting for the Pali cause. They don't SEEM to be in any kind of rush. But they better realize this can't go another generation without THEM buying into statehood and stability..

I find it disgusting how zionists blame the victim and all that changed, 'dude,' after Nuremberg. At least the international community believed that it had. Continuing to promote this dangerous ideology is what must stop.

 

[flacaltenn]

If you were run out an ancestral homeland and abused worldwide you MIGHT have a claim to a Homeland SOMEWHERE.. However -- as it is with ANY real estate market -- you don't get to pick the exact one you came from --- UNLESS -- it happens to "come on the market' at the right time. And this was a case of BEING PREPARED for statehood and having just the perfect AVAILABLE property show up on the listings.

Nothing mysterious. Palestinians ought to do the same. PREPARE for statehood, by getting organized and all Stately with actual LEADERS and appointed diplomats and such... And watching the market for what's "available". Seems like deals could be made in the NEIGHBORHOOD of their homeland between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon to put together a nice "fixer upper" just like Israel started out with... Gotz less to do the Bible actually, then Britain liquidating some wartime assets at the right time. With a little ingenuity and diplo-creativity we could see peace in our time..

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

Well, you are suggesting that a group of men from one continent can give another group of men from their continent, the land where others have lived for centuries on another continent.

That in itself seems like a dangerous precedent indeed.

That's the history of the world dude. Where ya been? Not so much since the "game" has wound down into more stability. But that's the way, it "developed". It's now a MATURE neighborhood. With less and less "homeland" fixer upper opportunities. Times' a'wasting for the Pali cause. They don't SEEM to be in any kind of rush. But they better realize this can't go another generation without THEM buying into statehood and stability..

I find it disgusting how zionists blame the victim and all that changed, 'dude,' after Nuremberg. At least the international community believed that it had. Continuing to promote this dangerous ideology is what must stop.

Not following that. Zionists blaming what victim? The British established 2 homelands in THEIR territory. There were no real victims. IN FACT -- prior to the 67 war, the Palis had the ENTIRE WEST BANK, financing from Jordan and representation in the Jordanian govt. You aware of how all that "bliss" ended up -- right????

 

[Roudy]

Is there a reason we cannot discuss the OP?

Nobody understood the point the OP was trying to make.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I think Abi's "right of self determination" is very arbritrary.

That's interesting as I thought I used it as the zionists do.

That right should be defined simply as this: if you are a defined group, you have that right. It doesn't mean others will recognize it, but they can't take that right away.

Interesting as well. Are you saying whether or not you are recognized as a defined group by others, you still have rights to your ancient homeland? An American group could bring their military to China, steal land and murder everyone not willing to leave or live with new rulers?

Self determination and rights to a homeland are two different things.

In the case of Palestine, you have the difficult situation of multiple groups with rights to the area that need to be worked out.

Or are you saying the jews are analogous to a foreign group bringing their military in and stealing land and murdering everyone etc.?

Or are you saying the jews are analogous to a foreign group bringing their military in and stealing land and murdering everyone etc.?

Correct.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If you claim this right on another's land, it sets a dangerous precedent, at least it would seem. When you come from another continent, it gets real dicey. When you demolish homes and villages, murder large numbers of the inhabitants, build towns where theirs just stood and only allow a small percentage of people who you havn't terrorized into leaving to live as a second class on their land, then you might be overstepping a tad, no?

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

Well, you are suggesting that a group of men from one continent can give another group of men from their continent, the land where others have lived for centuries on another continent.

That in itself seems like a dangerous precedent indeed.

That's the history of the world dude. Where ya been? Not so much since the "game" has wound down into more stability. But that's the way, it "developed". It's now a MATURE neighborhood. With less and less "homeland" fixer upper opportunities. Times' a'wasting for the Pali cause. They don't SEEM to be in any kind of rush. But they better realize this can't go another generation without THEM buying into statehood and stability..

I find it disgusting how zionists blame the victim and all that changed, 'dude,' after Nuremberg. At least the international community believed that it had. Continuing to promote this dangerous ideology is what must stop.

Not following that. Zionists blaming what victim? The British established 2 homelands in THEIR territory. There were no real victims. IN FACT -- prior to the 67 war, the Palis had the ENTIRE WEST BANK, financing from Jordan and representation in the Jordanian govt. You aware of how all that "bliss" ended up -- right????

The British established 2 homelands in THEIR territory.

It was not British territory. Britain was the trustee. Trustees administer but do not own.

 

[rylah]

I'm not trying to be funny, but seriously now. If I understand the zionist position, it boils down to might is right - or might makes right. But, there is also the idea that if a people were somewhere in ancient times, that they still retain rights to that land. I am constantly reminded about a peoples' right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. Am I okay so far?

Good.

Now, since we came from Asia, across the Bering Straight, would this ideology not give Americans the right to demolish homes in Asia today, demolish entire cities even? Can we go on to murder and expel those living there today? If any remain, can we imprison them behind walls? Can we use our military to enforce a new government upon them based on our laws, in our cities built where theirs just stood?

I think it is important to see what a dangerous precedent this sets for people the world over.

I disagree, the main thing here is not the distance.
The precedent is of an indigenous people reconstituting their national homeland in land that bears their name.

The precedent is good, although involves many difficulties, as in the case of Israel, Kurds and Yazidis, or Catalonia. I would like to see the shock wave in case some indigenous tribe decides they want a state in their familial lands in the US...

 

[rylah]

Oh, and if a small group of Americans came up with scrolls, claimed they were from God and that they were His chosen people, and He told them that they would be returned to their ancestral homeland, would that help or hurt the argument?

It certainly helps if they have the same promise in their own holy book.

 

[rylah]

You're not getting the LEGAL picture here. The parcel come up for "sale" thru a long chain of OWNERS ending in the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire. It was AVAILABLE.. At just the right time that the Jewish nation had taken enough abuse to consolidate BACK as a nation.. The OTTOMANS and the BRITS came from other continents as well. And THEY held the land title. NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..

Well, you are suggesting that a group of men from one continent can give another group of men from their continent, the land where others have lived for centuries on another continent.

That in itself seems like a dangerous precedent indeed.

That's the history of the world dude. Where ya been? Not so much since the "game" has wound down into more stability. But that's the way, it "developed". It's now a MATURE neighborhood. With less and less "homeland" fixer upper opportunities. Times' a'wasting for the Pali cause. They don't SEEM to be in any kind of rush. But they better realize this can't go another generation without THEM buying into statehood and stability..

I find it disgusting how zionists blame the victim and all that changed, 'dude,' after Nuremberg. At least the international community believed that it had. Continuing to promote this dangerous ideology is what must stop.

Not following that. Zionists blaming what victim? The British established 2 homelands in THEIR territory. There were no real victims. IN FACT -- prior to the 67 war, the Palis had the ENTIRE WEST BANK, financing from Jordan and representation in the Jordanian govt. You aware of how all that "bliss" ended up -- right????

The British established 2 homelands in THEIR territory.

It was not British territory. Britain was the trustee. Trustees administer but do not own.

So who owned, only the Arabs?